This Thing You Call Aggro.

[Hillary]

Hey Youz Guyz.

I'm playing a mage on another server, and after having done the Wailing Caverns twice now, I realize that my perspective of aggro is completely warped. Why? First character, 60 priest.

Griz has the whole aggro thing down. Fade ftw, rely upon the warrior for a taunt, and generally, everything is copacetic. If the MT goes down, I'm probably fried because I've drawn a lot of hate in my attempts to keep the MT alive. but the answer to this is pretty clear: don't let the MT die.

Nuff said.

After having done a level twenty something instance with my baby mage, I've come to wonder if a mage is ever allowed to let loose outside of solo play? I was struggling with aggro control the other night. Admittedly, there was a slight level discrepency between Yva and the rest of the party - maybe one or two - but she drew aggro fast (fast enough that Quark had to tell me to back down or he couldn't prevent me from getting hurt). Is that pretty much a common thing? Or are there spells I should stick to that are going to keep me less hurt? Arcane missiles are okay, I know. I've seen people use them in the big kid instances, so I'm figuring those are all right to use. Scorch I've heard is good? But when does a mage feel free to let loose with fireballs and such?

My timing is so screwed up. Any of you with thoughts on this, please share. Ears are wide open.

[Concillian]

Basically it's a combination of the right timing on the right target with the right DPS, and while I can't speak from the mage perspective, the rogue perspective is essentially the same.

You can't just go in frontloading damage. You have to meter your damage with the tanks ability to hold aggro.
Be very clear about which target is the correct target, the group "should" discuss attack strategy, though in pickup groups it's kinda rare to do so until the party wipes the first time.

I generally use the gage that if there isn't a sunder on the target, or it isn't below 80%, it's off limits unless headed for the healer.

The reason Arcane missiles is good is that it meters damage out over time. Scorch allows for relatively mana efficient DPS, which is why they are used in instance situations. These allow the tank an opportunity to build hate while you do damage. A fireball straight off will frontload all the damage, while AM meters the damage out over several seconds.

It's not always straightforward how to determine when you can unload. You have to get a feel with how each new tank operates. Hopefully by the time you're done with the 'trash' pulls you have a decent gage of his ability to hold aggro vs. your ability to pull it from him and you can meter your damage appropriately.

[Quark]

I do think the level difference was the biggest issue. You were a full 6 levels above me, since you were the high range and I was the low. Missing on hits means less rage for more, so less skills. Resisting taunt means I don't get hit, so even less rage = less skills. So being underleveled compared to you guys has made tanking ... interesting.

Scorch is my main weapon in instances. The DPS doesn't suffer too much, and it allows me to be more efficient with mana (Clearcast = Arcane Missiles), and I don't seem to have threat problems. I think Scorch has lower threat per damage than Fireball, so it's easier to use.

When I do get aggro, I throw up a Frost Nova if I can. Whether or not I can, I run in between the tank's legs and stop casting :)

The biggest aggro management with Mages though is simple practice. When Mitzy and Emjly were duoing, I'd occassionally call out "Gonna grab aggro ... now!" and sure enough, the monster would come to me. I knew when I'd grab, and if I needed to be careful at any time, I simply backed off. If you play with the same people, you'll learn to skirt the threat line. Grabbed aggro on the last pull with a certain sequence of spells? Lighting up and switch in a Scorch for a Fireball.

Oh yeah, don't cast Pyroblast in groups unless you know you're well below the threat level :) You don't have it yet (ever?), but it's risky in groups.

[Tal]

When duoing in the outside world (ie not in a dungeon) with Bolty I love to see how often I can pull aggro off him. Or as Bolty calls it: "Make Bolty scramble all over the place". That being said in instances I generally start off a fight with wand shots until I see a sunder on the mob for me to fire a fireball or a demoralizing shout for arcane missiles if I'm impatient. As others have said scorch is also a great spell to cast in groups.

Don't underestimate the times when its a good to pull aggro - I know on a number of occassions my fat has been saved by Skandranon or Ruvunal pulling the aggro off me so I can get off a heal. :)

[Skandranon]

After having done a level twenty something instance with my baby mage, I've come to wonder if a mage is ever allowed to let loose outside of solo play?  I was struggling with aggro control the other night.  Admittedly, there was a slight level discrepency between Yva and the rest of the party - maybe one or two - but she drew aggro fast (fast enough that Quark had to tell me to back down or he couldn't prevent me from getting hurt).  Is that pretty much a common thing?  Or are there spells I should stick to that are going to keep me less hurt?  Arcane missiles are okay, I know.  I've seen people use them in the big kid instances, so I'm figuring those are all right to use.  Scorch I've heard is good?  But when does a mage feel free to let loose with fireballs and such? 
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As the only DPS class with no method whatsoever to reduce their own aggro, mages have to be extremely sensitive to the level of hate the tank happens to have. Basically, it comes through experience - you just need to play more and get a better feel for how much hate the tank has at any given time. I couldn't quantify the sense I have, but I do know instinctively when I can use a particular attack.

Mages absolutely can let loose, to a certain degree, but it's only in what I call the third stage of mob engagement. The first stage is right after the pull, during which you do nothing. Nothing at all. Count to ten, or do whatever you need to resist the urge to cast. The first few seconds lay the foundation for the rest of the fight.

The second stage is light damage only. This is where Scorch shines; doesn't matter how you're specced, use Scorch here. If they're fire resistant, wand a bit or wait a few more seconds. This stage lasts longer in smaller groups and can be skipped entirely when you're raiding with 5 more than the intended group.

The third stage is when you can open up. Hate is securely locked to the tank, and you can blast away. You can still take aggro during this stage if you wildly chaincast, but allow a little bit of time between each cast and you'll do just fine. If you have any points in Arcane Subtlety at all, go for a couple volleys of missiles before you engage with fireball/frostbolt (whatever you've got Improved, since it'll be your highest-dps spell). Frost mages can start this stage earlier than fire mages.

If at any time you overnuke, pop a mana shield, move towards the tank and stay still. After the tank's got aggro back, start all over again. Wait a few seconds, then scorch, then back to volleying high damage stuff.

[Drasca]

General rule of thumb: If its below half health, and it takes the average 20 seconds to kill, you go all out.

Many elite mobs are balanced dying at around 20 seconds. Ten, fifteen, seconds into the battle the mob's health is at half and if you say wanted to cast a pyroblast/frost bolt/fireball, you'd expect 10 second or less left on the mob's health bar. At that point seeing the enemy's health is low, warriors can execture, rogues can let out their 5 point evicerates, and if you manage to pull aggro the enemy's dead.

Best rule of thumb: Never attack immediately. Wait until targets and positioning have been established.

This gives your warrior time to build aggro, yourself to get a clear idea view of the battlefield situation, and lets CC options come into play without being popped.

Note, you'll likely be polymorphing something. Rogues sometimes stun-intercept monsters too depending on the situation. Other skills come into play.

[Bolty]

Griz has the whole aggro thing down.  Fade ftw, rely upon the warrior for a taunt, and generally, everything is copacetic.  If the MT goes down, I'm probably fried because I've drawn a lot of hate in my attempts to keep the MT alive.  but the answer to this is pretty clear:  don't let the MT die.[right][snapback]78333[/snapback][/right]

One of the major things that makes Priests generally superior to Druids in healing duties is their ability to manage aggro like that. As Tal wrote, I enjoy playing the aggro game when we duo and there's no real threat of us dying - "Let's see Tal get aggro off THIS!" because I know I can always Fade and he can grab the aggro off me if we ever really get in trouble. This is also why I respect Druids so much - they can heal like Priests (sans Holy Word: Shield), but they lack the aggro control to keep things off them. Very challenging.

Playing a Rogue or Mage, as has been noted, is a different beast. As a Priest, you're automatically used to generally waiting at the start of a fight before healing, because there's no point to healing until people get hurt anyway. As a Mage or Rogue, though, you feel like you're not being useful when you act the same way. Your function is to obliterate. So if you're not obliterating, what good are you?

Nothing drives a main tank more nuts than seeing a Mage start casting Fireball or Frost Bolt the moment they engage an enemy. They're just starting to get enough rage for a Sunder and BAM! The mob goes zipping off to the squishies and the tank's off and running after it.

What's scary is that even level 60 mages don't get this (not referring to any Lurkers, just what I've seen in pickup groups). You'd think they'd learn eventually!

Blizzard modified Scorch recently to make it a more attractive use-early-in-the-fight spell. It builds power, doesn't draw much aggro, and lets you do something while the tank is busy annoying the foe. Ultimately however, you have to expect some time just waiting - something that comes naturally to a Priest but seems odd to a nuker.

Playing my Mage, that's not even the worst thing. The worst thing is watching a party member's health deteriorate and having absolutely no power to help them! I'm sure you know what I mean. Priest habits die hard.

-Bolty

[Darian]

Nothing drives a main tank more nuts than seeing a Mage start casting Fireball or Frost Bolt the moment they engage an enemy.
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Unless it's a hunter uncorking an aimed shot during the pull...

[Tal]

Unless it's a hunter uncorking an aimed shot during the pull...
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Or a paladin named Sharanna popping an exorcism... ;)

[Zarathustra]

Or a Paladin charging in first thing and laying down a Consecrate.

[bonemage]

Unless it's a hunter uncorking an aimed shot during the pull...
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Or a hunter sending in their soft, DPS heavy cat as part of the pull... Try grabbing aggro off a cat if you feel like an exercise in futility. Granted, the cat will really only hold aggro on one target, but he soaks up heals twice as fast as a warrior, and if he still goes down, the healer generated a LOT of hate trying to save him. Same goes for other DPS classes.

The way I treat my role as DPS or MT is this:

The tank's job is to aggro everything possible so that when he receives his heals, the mobs don't break for the healer. DPS classes need to show proper restraint and target selection to not pull aggro off the MT. If a DPS class peels someone off with nuking, it's that person's fault they receive damage, and it's risky to the whole party for the priest to exert a lot of effort trying to save that person. That's when things go well, but things go well so much more often if all classes understand and treat aggro this way.

I've refered to aggro management between a warlock and a voidwalker as a dance, but it's true for aggro management in general. What you can and can't do has a lot of factors to it, a lot of which is timing, but it's not just the DPS classes timing or the tanks timing. The mob level plays a factor in this too. That's why it's a dance, the moves of one affect the other (tank and DPS class in the example). However, the tank is usually generating hate as fast as he can, so it's really up to the DPS classes to make adjustments. Misses, resists, these can slow down the tank, so the DPS class must recognize this and slow down as well. The best way for the DPS classes to notice this (NO, not the combat log, yeesh!) is to learn and watch the debuffs. Anyone that plays with a warrior tank should recognize sunder armor and wait for it before doing anything. Experience is the best teacher for this, and experimenting is good. "I wonder if I'll get aggro if I do THIS?!" is a healthy question to ask and tinker with (outdoors preferably).

Rules of thumb that don't take experience for DPS classes:

- If you do get aggro, move closer to the tank and stop doing damage. DON'T RUN!

- I recommend AGAINST using frost nova (mages), you could aggro more than one mob, and this is a high threat spell, NOT something to use when trying to LOSE aggro.

- Recognize that the MT and healer are crucial to the party, moreso than DPS classes. If the MT or healer dies, a wipe is VERY likely. Sometimes the healer may have decided it was too risky to save you and may let you live with the consequences of you over nuking. Let it be a hard lesson and don't flame the healer.

[Quark]

Or a Paladin charging in first thing and laying down a Consecrate.
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That has many, many, uses. When done right on an AoE pull, it means the Pally takes the initial brunt instead of the squishies. Mage/Warlock steal aggro, start getting pounded, but the non-elites have already taken a good chunk of damage and so they don't need to be healed as much.

That and a Paladin we raided Scarlet Stratholme with managed to finish 4th in the DPS list due to smart Consecrate use. Only behind the two "true" AoEers and a decked Rogue.

[kandrathe]

Unless it's a hunter uncorking an aimed shot during the pull...
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Heh, or a rogue criting an ambush.

[vor_lord]

Or a Paladin charging in first thing and laying down a Consecrate.
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Why? This is my primary role when we're going to do AoE. Warrior charge + shout, pulls them back to desired location, then I spam consecration. The mage and warlock start at the end of the first 8 seconds or so. Soon I lose aggro and can step in and heal, but the mobs are hurt very badly. Consecration helps keep them off the AoEr's for a couple of shots, which is very worthwhile.

Even not in an AoE situation, the paladin is wearing plate so him having aggro is not so bad. It adversely affects the warrior's rage generation. You can bet, however, if grouped with a warrior who never switches targets, that I'll be dropping consecration to give the healer more time.

If the paladin is the main tank, the first thing he _should_ do is lay down a consecrate. It's the paladin's only viable aggro grabbing tool for groups.

[oldmandennis]

Or a hunter sending in their soft, DPS heavy cat as part of the pull...  Try grabbing aggro off a cat if you feel like an exercise in futility.  Granted, the cat will really only hold aggro on one target, but he soaks up heals twice as fast as a warrior, and if he still goes down, the healer generated a LOT of hate trying to save him.  Same goes for other DPS classes.


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Let the kitty die. If the hunter cares about the cost of 1 food for happyness, he will stop doing it. If not, well the cat has 9 lives, may as well use them!

Rogues are a different story, cause if they die too much somone will need to pop a bot to fix their gear.

[Boutros]

It's very important for DPS classes to learn how to moderate their aggro. I haven't had a big problem keeping monsters of the healers in a while, it's always the DPS classes who steal aggro. Sometimes on a raid or 5-man the same rogue or mage or warlock will keep taking hits and occasionally dying while the monsters never even look in the direction of the rest of the party. I've even had them demand I taunt more, they never figured out that they were the only ones taking extra hits.

One of the best things you can do as a DPS class is to look for the taunt debuff on the monster you are attacking. While taunt does force the monster to attack the warrior for a few seconds, unless the warrior has rage and is able to get a few good hits in that time the monster is going to peel right off. If you notice your warrior chain taunting you probably need to lay off a bit, especially if you are a mage with no de-aggro skills.

[Brista]

Let the kitty die.  If the hunter cares about the cost of 1 food for happyness, he will stop doing it.  If not, well the cat has 9 lives, may as well use them!

Rogues are a different story, cause if they die too much somone will need to pop a bot to fix their gear.
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If the hunter turns growl off and cower on, nothing will stick to the cat

As an aside, in a recent Uldaman run my level 46 kitty had 1k more armour than our level 45 pick-up tank so it's not a given that the healer will use more on the cat ;)

[LochnarITB]

The reason Arcane missiles is good is that it meters damage out over time.  Scorch allows for relatively mana efficient DPS, which is why they are used in instance situations.  These allow the tank an opportunity to build hate while you do damage.  A fireball straight off will frontload all the damage, while AM meters the damage out over several seconds.
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I don't think it is what you meant, but I just wanted to add that this doesn't mean to let loose with Arcane Missiles immediately. Because they begin to fly right away, if the tank has not grabbed aggro at all on your target, even the small damage of that first burst will pull the focus to you. The cast time of other spells creates a built in delay before the damage hits. With my frost mage, I can usually start throwing snowballs when the mob is down 5-10%. I also do not fear pulling aggro once the mob is close to death. If the mob is ready to go down, I can finish them with a set of arcane missiles. Sometimes, tanks and healers panic when a squishie draws a mob even at that point. If they are aware that the mob is close to going down, trust the mage to finish it. Don't chase it down or go into emergency heal mode.

Also, since the early levels of Lochnar, I have thought of my little squishy as being expendable. If I see a fight going south, I will pop a shield (love my Ice Barrier) and go in to do as much damage and drawing as much aggro as possible before going down. I will, hopefully, have pulled aggro off the healer and taken a few of the baddies close to death or dead. Mage aggro can be a good thing, especially if you pair it with the cry "LLEEEERRRRROOOOOYYYY JJJEEENNNNKKKIINNNSSSS!".

[Tal]

As an aside, in a recent Uldaman run my level 46 kitty had 1k more armour than our level 45 pick-up tank so it's not a given that the healer will use more on the cat ;)
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Did the kitty have more health?

[Quark]

Heh, or a rogue criting an ambush.
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It's not really an issue as much of the other ones, suprisingly. A quick Feint will usually give back the aggro to the warrior, and unless you hit *way* too early, a Blessing of Salvation probably means you didn't get aggro in the first place.

It's also not as much of an issue since the Rogue is right next to the Warrior. A Hunter gets aggro, the mob goes flying. A Rogue does it, the mob's still right there so the warrior can still work on getting more aggro.

Not that getting aggro is a good thing, and I pride myself in not usually getting it on bosses :)