The hypocrisy has reached new levels

[Doc]

Was for those kids to go in there in the first place. They should be commended or something.

I dunno about you, and please don't take this the wrong way, but I feel mighty peculiar going into a room or a place full of white folks I don't know. Now that's not a racist statement. It's just I have had many unfortunate experiences with those folks, and it has become somewhat reflex like in nature. Not to mention the social pressure, plus all those hang ups our parents or (somewhat) adult role models or what ever plant in our heads from an early age. Mayhap it's a sign we are losing our hang ups. Which is good.

Those first few careful steps are always the worst, never knowing if you will be rewarded for your courage or punished for your misstep.

Fortune favours the bold. Someday, I hope we will all be as bold.

Sadly, I doubt I will live long enough to see it.

Where I live, it's still segregated. Instead of whites only, it's signs proudly proclaiming "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone." Lots and lots of black students end up in "special ed" class rooms when they fail rigged competency tests. White businesses still hire white folks, while many black business hire only black folks, which is shameful. And stupid. Strip clubs for white folks, strip clubs for black folks, and the racially mixed strip clubs always end up in the news papers for the worst most cartoony bar room brawls you can imagine, and the local politicians point to this behaviour and loudly proclaim that we need to bring back segregation.

I get the feeling that at times, I am surrounded on all sides by morons. A morass of morons.

And I for one think Shadow was just fine in her reply. Double standards exist. If I was to sit at the dinner table shirtless, or, more importantly, if FABIO or one of the Chippendale's Dancers sat at the table shirtless, not one damn woman would be complaining about seeing man cleavage. So shut your yaps. Yes, that means you. Shut yer pie hole. Shush. Be ye not part of the Demon of Double Standard. It's just a bit of titty and a baby suckling. Hell, did you shut your eyes and freak out and have Freudian fits as a child when you did this? (If you did this) Now, if a woman climbed up on the table, kicked the potato salad out of the way, stuck one foot in the macaroni salad, and started doing the Erotic Belly Dance of the Seven Veils, you might have room to complain. Till then, stick a cork in it.

[ShadowHM]

I do have issues on this topic. You pressed my button and I reacted. :o

The pompous tone of your response suggesting that somehow your distaste for the procedure should take precedence over my child's needs in a setting that was clearly described as private domain (my friends' cottage) did upset me. Polite argument? You expressed your atavistic social mores in a way that implied you had every right to chastise me.

Like it or not, as you point out, some men never do learn to curb their instincts. "Oh look....a nursing mother! She is obviously fertile. Why, she would make a wonderful carrier for MY genes too!" On the other hand, they also learn to hide instinctive responses quite well under all manner of other circumstances, so it should not be too much of a stretch to manage it for this one too.

As Occhi pointed out, social conventions do differ. In your home, you get to dictate. In mine, I get to dictate. And in public, it depends on the rules of the land. In Saudi Arabia, you can bet I would hide under my cover-all robes and you would never have notice a thing.

I do suggest that you be careful when you make the same suggestion to the next nursing mother you meet. She might react just like I did. :lol:

[Guest]

Any analytical comparison of our posts would find mine less judgemental. Im not sure that either would rate very high if there was a scale of pompitude.

In a public situation I would just quitely leave the room.
And yes if I thought the mother could easily have done the suckeling elsewhere I would think her selfish.

On a side note I would think it rather gracious if the mother said " I need to breast feed my child here" and thus gave me a less awkward oppertunity to leave.

[kandrathe]

Yes, I agree. Maybe Alpha Phi Alpha would be better example.

[kandrathe]

I think the most effective would be a quiet respectful protest of going and studying there, and refusing to leave until you are arrested. Not much different than the lunch counter or bus protests in the south during the 50's and 60's.

[whyBish]

Please. I guess it was okay then for African Americans to be denied access to restaurants, bathrooms, theaters, and buses (or at the very least forced to endure lower quality service) prior to America's cultural revolution, eh? After all, they're not "paying" for anything! They're just being denied access! No biggie!

Males aren't permitted in female bathrooms because different facilities are required for each.

As to the pension... Young people aren't given pensions because they didn't put it the work, loyalty, and time needed to receive one. AA, on the other hand, hands free gifts over to individuals who have done nothing to deserve it. A rather significant difference, no?

Yeah, teaches me for sticking my foot in with too little time. You got me on that first paragraph :)

On the second point, I don't see any difference in facilities between the two. Should I camp out in the toilets of the opposite gender complaining of discrimination and wait for things to change? Both 'sides' need those facilities, in your case on campus there are plenty of places to study and you are complaining about one facility that is by AA dedicated to a group that you do not belong?

You seem to be saying that you agree with affirmative action as long as everyone is treated as equal? This essentially rules out AA completely. As Jester(?) said, what actions would you allow under AA?

Finally, as to the pension, it is not given to those that put in what you suggested . It is given to everyone that reaches a specific age, some of who have done nothing to deserve it, so I see no difference.

[Doc]

I think the most effective would be a quiet respectful protest of going and studying there, and refusing to leave until you are arrested. Not much different than the lunch counter or bus protests in the south during the 50's and 60's.

No, not so different at all. All except the part of being blasted with fire hoses, beaten, savaged by dogs, being beaten with rubber hoses and soddomized down at the jail, being lynched by men in white hoods and hung from a tree or flogged with a cat o nine tails. Nope. Not much difference at all.

Protest is a good deal safer now for the most part. This is both bad and good. Good, that it is safer for the protesters (Most of the time) and bad because there is no mind blowing violence to draw attention to the problem, so it goes largely ignored. Times have changed.

[whyBish]

Does "Society {have} an obligation to ensure that {it} does not continue indefinitely."?  Yes, definitely.

Is the solution to reverse which group has the unfair advantage?  Does such a policy lead to equality?  I don't think so.

If the field is tilted one way, tilting it the other just replaces one injustice with its opposite.

You are taking a static view of discrimination, I am taking a dynamic view. If the tables are tilted one way for a long time, and then centered(equality) then the ball is still going to be on the (white) side, from now to eternity. If you tip it back the other way *for a short time* then at least it can come back closer to the center when it is time to 'centre the table'.

Yes, I am arguing that 'two wrongs make a right', or more accurately 'two temporary wrongs in opposite directions make things less wrong' :P

[whyBish]

1970's?  Nope

Informal segregation?  Still around in every nation.
Excluding "others" is a very old human habit not confined to America. 

Ask a Tutsi, or an Ibo.

Black racists in America are some of the worst hypocrites I have ever encountered, who are unable to look forward.

Oh yay, another decade or two without enforcable segregation. :huh: (Although I do appreciate being corrected on the accuracy of my guess)

Of course there is more than just America in this situation, but that does not justify anything, unless you believe in tyranny of the majority.

"Black racists in America are some of the worst hypocrites I have ever encountered, who are unable to look forward."
Again I am struggling to see your point. I would put it to you that at least the black racist, as opposed to the white racist, is able to see the past.

[whyBish]

I think the most effective would be a quiet respectful protest of going and studying there, and refusing to leave until you are arrested.  Not much different than the lunch counter or bus protests in the south during the 50's and 60's.

Yes, lets stop minorities from having a peaceful place to study. Brilliant. :blink:

Just think of it this way, it is a temporary structure to help 'them' 'get back in the game'.

I think everyone in here is making a mountain out of a molehill.

P.S. to ShadowHM, sorry about getting this thread off-topic about breastfeeding :)

P.P.S. I still think the 'religious group' analogy was better than either of the ones I gave.

[WarLocke]

Yes, lets stop minorities from having a peaceful place to study. Brilliant.

... Except that they already have a place to study. You know, it's that other study lounge that doesn't deny student's access because of their ancestors. :ph34r:

[alex_reno]

Mithrandir:

It's time to drop the notion that the past is anything but the past.

It's not about the past, it's what's happening right now.

Check what the state of Oklahoma had to say about race and incarceration. Note table three: nationwide, 1099 blacks per 100,000 were incarcerated, the total for whites being just 165 per 100,000. I don't know about you, but I'd prefer a slightly worse chance to get into university over being six times as likely to be thrown in jail. White guys have it so tough these days!

a veritable parade of pro-AA speakers and activists everywhere on campus... and every single one of them seems completely unwilling to provide an oppurtunity for counter-arguments.

And yet you passed up an opportunity to practice your arguments on me when I defended affirmative action upthread.

I reiterate: when you consider that blacks are more likely to grow up in single parent homes (see above) AND more likely to receive a poor education, perhaps a black is more likely to appear less qualified than a white is, given similar talents. Do you care to refute this or will it remain unchallenged?

Nystul:

Until or unless the Supreme Court decides to make a firm stand against it (don't hold your breath waiting), the trend will continue to grow.

Or pehaps it will abate as blacks become more accepted and fewer black families are broken up by the state. On the other hand, as we all know, the supreme court really has it in for white people.

And what Doc said.

[kandrathe]

Yes, I am arguing that 'two wrongs make a right', or more accurately 'two temporary wrongs in opposite directions make things less wrong'

How would you resolve the harms (wrongs) committed by seizing the land of indigenous peoples in addition to the discrimination to which they have been subjected. Or, for instance, here in the US there is a case in process where the BIA (Bureau of Indian Affairs) has been proven to have inappropriatly managed the leases of indian land for logging and mining resulting in a class action lawsuit. Source: NARF

It seems complicated. Can you treat all minority groups equally when it comes to affirmative action? Are Native Americans, African Americans, Asian Americans, Latinos, and other minorities all discriminated against in the same way, and for the same time period? What about discrimination against a minority by a different minority group? How can you craft an affirmative action program to balance it all?

[kandrathe]

And still a black man can be dragged to death behind a truck in Texas, or a gay man taken out of a bar and beaten to death in Montana. I think those things you described could still happen today, but not likely to some white boys trying to study in the minority study lounge.

I am frequently guilty of being overly optimistic when it comes to the civility and rationality of my fellow human.

[kandrathe]

Yes, lets stop minorities from having a peaceful place to study. Brilliant. I think everyone in here is making a mountain out of a molehill.

Well, I had stated earlier the same sentiment. I think the white boys will do just fine at the University, even without the right to study in the minority study lounge. When I was at University I always resented the masses of protesters beating drums, shouting on bull horns, and disrupting my ability to hear a lecture or study. Most often the protest was against something that the students and the University had no part of (e.g. US out of El Salvador).

[kandrathe]

Check what the state of Oklahoma had to say about race and incarceration. Note table three: nationwide, 1099 blacks per 100,000 were incarcerated, the total for whites being just 165 per 100,000. I don't know about you, but I'd prefer a slightly worse chance to get into university over being six times as likely to be thrown in jail. White guys have it so tough these days!

I think this report and it's conclusions are a perfect example of how to lie with statistics. The numbers are all accurate, however no analysis of the population is presented. What percentage of these incarcerated persons are poor? What percentage of these crimes were recidivist?

a] Police presence, arrests, and activity are more intense in areas that have higher crime and poverty. In the city near me, 80% of the homicides occur within a 1 mile square area, and it is the area that has the highest drug sales and use. 97% of these murders are related to drug dealing, or domestic violence. If you go to that area anytime of the day or night you will see police everywhere. In my neighborhood, I saw one police car drive through here about three years ago to drop off a 9 year old boy who had gotten himself lost.

b] The disparity of the imprisonment rates may also be due to a disparity in who is commiting the crimes. The problem is not therefore that some people are being imprisoned unfairly, or that some groups are getting away with crimes. The problem is that some people are resorting to crime because they are being denied access to the legitimate economy.

c] There is a pronounced linkage between poverty and crime, but not all poor people resort to crime.

[alex_reno]

a perfect example of how to lie with statistics ... What percentage of these incarcerated persons are poor? What percentage of these crimes were recidivist?

Actually, I thought that there's very little - to euphemize - data management in that study. Which part specifically did you think misrepresented the facts on the ground?

Poverty? Keep in mind that whatever low-income bar you set, there are probably more white people below that bar than blacks, whites being somewhat more numerous in the US.

There is a pronounced linkage between poverty and crime, but not all poor people resort to crime.

But apparently blacks are far more likely to get locked up for it. Thus my point that racism isn't dead.

[Chaerophon]

there are probably more white people below that bar than blacks, whites being somewhat more numerous in the US.

Certainly. And on a per capita basis? The study is conducted on likelihood given membership in the population.

1099 blacks per 100,000 were incarcerated, the total for whites being just 165 per 100,000.

It's pretty obvious; I don't think I need to point it out to you. I'm QUITE certain that if you consult a "mean" or "median" income statistic for the two populations surveyed, you'll find that the 100,000 white people were, on average, wealthier than were the 100,000 from the black population.

[LiquidDamage]

If we agree that being poor gets you a worse education, and that a far greater percentage of minorities are poor than whites,  then one would have to suspect that these programs are not especially poorly targeted.

Of course they are poorly targeted. The bullseye is "the poor". You are aiming at minorities, which may have a good probability of hitting the poor, but wouldn't actually aiming at the poor be better? Not only would it be more likely to help the poor, it also wouldn't be racist.

If someone wants to help me because I need help, I appreciate it. When someone wants to help me because of who my father is... it makes me uncomfortable.

[Nystul]

Here's my take on your link: only 18 Asian-Americans incarcerated in the entire state of Oklahoma! They have the highest per capita income and the lowest crime rates nationwide, even better than European-Americans in both categories. Yet they face more than their fair share of bigotry. I think there is a cultural dynamic at play here, and I don't think affirmative action politics do a darn thing to help the situation.