patch 2.0.10 notes on the PTR

[TheDragoon]

Protection specc'd warriors should be above that because of their sacrifices.

This has been one of the things that I have the biggest problems with. Everyone always says that because it was true pre-2.0 but I don't think it is as valid anymore. Prot warriors can do pretty darn good DPS if they throw on some DPS gear with the addition of Focused Rage, Vitality and Devestate. They will not be quite as great as the other warrior DPS specs, but they are certainly no longer gimped as they were pre-2.0.

If protection spec'd warriors are the plain better tanks than the other choices, they WILL be the only option in the end-game unless the end-game is a complete joke. That is NOT the way this game should go and that is why I am of the opinion that any Paladin, Druid or Warrior who uses a tanking talent spec with the appropriate gear should be able to tank comparably. The Warrior will always have the extra little tricks that can help out (shield wall, extra magic damage reduction, silencing shield bash, last stand, etc.) with tanking but the base tanking statistics (mitigation and threat generation, primarily) should be similar for each of the tanking spec'd classes. I disagree that a warrior using a 41/20/0 spec should be just as good at tanking as a protection pally or a bear druid though I think that a hybrid build (such as 41/5/15) should be able to come close. :)

[fractaled]

Explain Resto Druids then

They've done a good job of making all the healing classes equally effective in different ways. They have yet to do this with tanking. (Although they seem to be giving Paladin's super AoE tanking).

I also gave up a ton to heal when I was Resto. Effectively there was nothing to do except raid

I'm not saying that healers don't sacrifice to raid, I'm saying that if a warrior *does* spec Prot, and is inferior to a druid tank, then a warrior should *never* spec Prot. Which leaves them the DPS role, which they are inferior to rogues in (or at least should be now).

Blizzard have sold Druid tanks out. We were promised raid viability, we got it and now it's been taken off us again. I doubt we will get it back

I think you're overreacting. I think the bonus threat reduction may be a bad idea by Blizzard (they seem to like changing 2 things at once when 1 would be sufficient). Other than that, druids will be fine for 5-mans, they'll be super off-tanks, and they'll be able to main tank if they dedicate themselves to it. (A prot warrior being better doesn't mean a druid can't do it).

As for the jack of all trades master of none argument I don't really buy it. Why don't we suck at healing if it's "unfair" for us to do anything well? And I certainly don't want to be the raid member who sucks at multiple roles since I was rather set on tanking well and it seems a poor alternative to do lots of things to a mediocre standard

The thing is, druids *are* worse healers in some ways (I really notice the lack of fade, shield, fort, and rez in 5-mans), it's just that it's fine if you have a resto specced druid. I'd say that feral druids *are* worse tanks than Prot warriors now, but you'll be fine with one.

I think it is fair that Blizzard included the cost of being a hybrid in your ability to specialize. At the end of the day, getting to 70 and all the rep grinds is the hardest part. If you can respec & get some new gear and totally change your play style to keep the game interesting, that is something worth having (unless you know you're dead-set on one style of play:)).

[Taelas]

:blink:Not take along a class that can tank, can dps and heal in a pinch seems pretty short sighted to me. Especially in light of the smaller raid compositions in TBC.

That being said a feral druid doesn't give up as much in comparison to a protection warrior to spec for raids. All of the best talents for tanking and dps are in one tree. A protection warrior gives up DPS to do one job and only one job in raids just like a healing specc'd priest gives up a lot of their dps.

And on behalf of many warriors I reiterate: We never wanted druids nerfed but warriors buffed. Druids, paladins specc'd for tanking and arms/fury warriors should be of comparable effectiveness for tanking. Protection specc'd warriors should be above that because of their sacrifices.

That's nothing but a load of wash. Arms/Fury warriors should NOT be equal to Feral druids or protection Paladins. I have a 60+ of each of the three tanking classes, and the winner when all three are specced tank has always been and will always be the Protection warrior--and that's just the way it should be. That doesn't mean a Feral druid should be relegated to be an off-tank only.

The Protection warrior should be the obvious choice, but a Feral druid or a Protection paladin (who, by the way, gives up healing and DPS in order to tank) should be the obvious replacement the second a Protection warrior isn't available, otherwise we might as well not bother to have them. A Feral druid is extremely dependant on gear to step in as main tank. Off-tanking doesn't require much, but tanking the big, hard-hitting bosses that warriors tank require an effort in gathering gear that warriors have never had to even contemplate.

Aside from that, Feral druid tanking itemization is so horrible that I got my ultimate tanking boots at 66, my ultimate tanking belt at 68, and my ultimate tanking bracers at 69 (the last two on the same questline, no less). Only one out of those three isn't green. I can get basically all my ultimate tanking gear save 2-3 pieces outside of raids. Once raiding starts, I get almost nothing... and the upgrades I'm talking about are the T5 Feral set, which basically has horrible stats for its ilevel with regards to tanking (it's just better than anything else).

Well, Druids have to spend a lot of time (as it is) educating people about our class. Pre-expansion, it was educating them about our range of abilities. In the Expansion, we have to educate people about our limitations. For example, Tal probably didn't mean, "Go from rogue DPS to holy priest healing in combat," by "heal in a pinch," but the popular view is that Druids basically can. People simply don't realize the effect our gear has on our abilities. And for feral druids--no one has a CLUE how much iLoTP heals.

(Hint: it's a lot. If I shift out of cat in some places, people die)

And yeah, Tal, that short sightedness is definitely out there and will be exacerbated by these nerfs. A KZ raider was telling me just the other day that his ideal raid composition for KZ was "One of every class and an extra warrior...because you need two tanks in some places,"

QFT. I cannot count the times I've felt myself forced to explain my capabilities and limitations to others.

Some of them go so far as to say that we are "better tanks than warriors", then in the next sentence add, "druids should never be MTs". Yeah, go figure.

[Tal]

That's nothing but a load of wash. Arms/Fury warriors should NOT be equal to Feral druids or protection Paladins.

Think very carefully what you're calling a "load of wash". An arms/fury warrior can out dps a protection paladin true but cannot cleanse, cannot throw out even meager heals, nor can we throw lay of hands on a target either. We're close but depending on gearing can be out dps'd by cat druids while not being able to throw on another set of gear and heal, buff, innervate or AOE heal even if its a weak mode of healing. Given all of that why would you take an arms/fury or fury/arms warrior on a raid if they couldn't offtank as well as the other hybrid tanks? For our awesome mortal strike debuff? I can't think of a single encounter that you HAVE to have mortal strike for. Battleshout for the rogues? Bring another paladin for blessing of might AND have an offtank/cleanser/healer possibility.

And prior to TBC I had tanked every boss in the game up to Naxx with my Arms/Fury build but no where in my post did I state that any of the tanks should be relegated to offtank only. Small minds will put hybrids into small roles.

[Mavfin]

Think very carefully what you're calling a "load of wash". An arms/fury warrior can out dps a protection paladin true but cannot cleanse, cannot throw out even meager heals, nor can we throw lay of hands on a target either. We're close but depending on gearing can be out dps'd by cat druids while not being able to throw on another set of gear and heal, buff, innervate or AOE heal even if its a weak mode of healing. Given all of that why would you take an arms/fury or fury/arms warrior on a raid if they couldn't offtank as well as the other hybrid tanks? For our awesome mortal strike debuff? I can't think of a single encounter that you HAVE to have mortal strike for. Battleshout for the rogues? Bring another paladin for blessing of might AND have an offtank/cleanser/healer possibility.

And prior to TBC I had tanked every boss in the game up to Naxx with my Arms/Fury build but no where in my post did I state that any of the tanks should be relegated to offtank only. Small minds will put hybrids into small roles.

IMO, what I think Blizzard is trying to balance out is to put the 'tank' specs (druid/warrior/pally) ahead of the other specs in tanking. I.E. put a feral druid or prot pally ahead of the DPS warrior for tanking. The prot warrior will usually end up on top on the big hitters because their bag of tricks is bigger. However, there are nights the warrior MT(s) have RL obligations, and other assorted things that mean the next tank(s) have to step up and do the job. There's nothing I see to say that won't be a druid, or a pally in many situations. There will be bosses you want a druid on, etc. Druid MTs? That's up to the raid leaders.


NOTE: This is not to say that the DPS warriors won't get to tank, but they may not be the #1 option after the MT(s). Also, any druid or pally tanking in raids is always going to be held hostage to the dispelling/decursing/healing needs of the raid. They can do those, warriors can't, whether DPS or prot. If you're short healers or decursers or dispellers, you're probably going to use the extra warrior you have logged on, and keep the druid/pally around for other duties.

[Tal]

IMO, what I think Blizzard is trying to balance out is to put the 'tank' specs (druid/warrior/pally) ahead of the other specs in tanking. I.E. put a feral druid or prot pally ahead of the DPS warrior for tanking.

This makes no sense IMHO given the flexibility that a druid and paladin bring to a raid over a dps warrior. And yet Blizzard continually propogates the raiding instances with dps plate so its obvious that Blizzard sees raid groups bringing dps warriors to a raid. I'd say given the way that they've brought rage up, added more AOE threat for warriors and reduced Bear threat via swipe that Blizzard is trying to bring warriors/druids and paladins in line below protection warriors for tanking.

[Mavfin]

This makes no sense IMHO given the flexibility that a druid and paladin bring to a raid over a dps warrior. And yet Blizzard continually propogates the raiding instances with dps plate so its obvious that Blizzard sees raid groups bringing dps warriors to a raid. I'd say given the way that they've brought rage up, added more AOE threat for warriors and reduced Bear threat via swipe that Blizzard is trying to bring warriors/druids and paladins in line below protection warriors for tanking.

See my note, Tal:D

There will always be times that the druid or pally needs to be healing/dispelling/decursing instead of tanking, so the DPS warrior gets to tank anyway. Flexibility is the biggest thing about a hybrid like a druid, or even a DPS warrior.

[Taelas]

Think very carefully what you're calling a "load of wash". An arms/fury warrior can out dps a protection paladin true but cannot cleanse, cannot throw out even meager heals, nor can we throw lay of hands on a target either. We're close but depending on gearing can be out dps'd by cat druids while not being able to throw on another set of gear and heal, buff, innervate or AOE heal even if its a weak mode of healing. Given all of that why would you take an arms/fury or fury/arms warrior on a raid if they couldn't offtank as well as the other hybrid tanks? For our awesome mortal strike debuff? I can't think of a single encounter that you HAVE to have mortal strike for. Battleshout for the rogues? Bring another paladin for blessing of might AND have an offtank/cleanser/healer possibility.

And prior to TBC I had tanked every boss in the game up to Naxx with my Arms/Fury build but no where in my post did I state that any of the tanks should be relegated to offtank only. Small minds will put hybrids into small roles.

To be perfectly honest, I think I have given this issue quite a bit more thought than you.

-Druids cannot tank unless specced Feral.
-Paladins cannot tank unless specced Protection.
-Warriors can tank regardless of spec, though they are superior to all other classes when specced Protection.

As soon as you require more than 3 tanks, the Arms/Fury warriors are there to step in. Might I remind you that Naxxramas required no less than 8 warriors?

No, it doesn't happen often. Why on earth should it? The Arms/Fury warriors specced DPS, and they do it well. Feral druids specced melee, and they do it well, be it DPS or tanking. Let me reiterate: I specced to tank. Why should they bring me if I only do sporadious tanking and DPS and a bit of support healing? In your world, an Arms/Fury warrior can replace me in every aspect but healing, and so I'd be more useful as a Restoration druid.

We have a new raiding scene: 25 mans. That is on average three per class.

Here's an example raid composition,
-3 Warriors. 1 is Protection, and is main tank. 2 are Arms/Fury. Depending on encounters, the Arms/Fury warriors does DPS or tanks.
-3 Paladins. 1 is Protection, and is main tank 2. 2 are Holy. Depending on encounters, the Protection paladin heals or tanks.
-2 Rogues. Does almost nothing but DPS.
-2 Mages. Does almost nothing but DPS.
-3 Druids. 1 is Feral, and is main tank 3. 1 is Restoration, 1 is Balance. Depending on encounters, the Feral druid does DPS, tanks or heals and the Balance druid does DPS or heals.
-3 Priests. 1 is Shadow, 2 are Holy. Depending on encounters, the Shadow priest does DPS or heals.
-3 Warlocks. Does almost nothing but DPS.
-3 Shamans. 1 is Restoration, 1 is Enhancement, 1 is Elemental. Depending on encounters, the Enhancement shaman does DPS or heals, and the Elemental shaman does DPS or heals.
-3 Hunters. Does almost nothing but DPS.

So on encounters that require more than 3 tanks, the Arms/Fury warriors step in. On encounters that require only 1 tank, the druid does DPS and the paladin heals, unless more healing is required, in which case the druid also heals. On encounters that require more than 1 tank, but also requires more healing, the druid and the paladin heals and the Arms/Fury warriors tank.

If Arms/Fury warriors are equal tanks to druids and paladins who specced to tank, you can scrap them entirely and respec them to healers--or maybe even remove one and replace it with a DPS class (as it can easily be argued that one of them specced healing would replace both of them).

[Tal]

To be perfectly honest, I think I have given this issue quite a bit more thought than you.

Based on what you're posting, no, no you haven't and you're certainly not reading my posts.

-Druids cannot tank unless specced Feral.
-Paladins cannot tank unless specced Protection.
-Warriors can tank regardless of spec, though they are superior to all other classes when specced Protection.

Not entirely true. Restoration druids with proper gearing can tank. Maybe not at the raid level but they CAN do the job. How do I know this? I've seen it in action on Stormrage with some of our druids. They also put out decent enough dps in cat form. I've tanked and healed instances on my retn00b specc'd paladin. I hold aggro okay if folks aren't monkeys.

As soon as you require more than 3 tanks, the Fury/Arms warriors are there to step in. Might I remind you that Naxxramas required no less than 8 warriors?

Small nit. It required six tanks who could TAUNT. I've heard of guilds using druids on the Horsemen.

The Fury/Arms warriors specced DPS, and they do it well. Feral druids specced melee, and they do it well, be it DPS or tanking. Let me reiterate: I specced to tank. Why should they bring me if I only do sporadious tanking and DPS and a bit of support healing? In your world, a Fury warrior can replace me in every aspect but healing, and so I'd be more useful as a Restoration druid.

No no no. Go back and re-read what I stated. If DPS warriors were not at least on par with druids and paladins why would any raid leader bring them to a raid? I specifically asked you what a DPS warrior would bring that was superior to a paladin or a druid or any other dps class. YOU are the one painting me in a world where a raid leader wouldn't want the flexibility that a druid/paladin brings to a raid. The only thing I'm saying is that we should be on equal footing with a feral and a protection specc'd paladin. Stop making assumptions and READ what I wrote.

Here's an example raid composition,
-3 Warriors. 1 is Protection, and is main tank. 2 are Arms/Fury. Depending on encounters, the Arms/Fury warriors does DPS or tanks.
-3 Paladins. 1 is Protection, and is main tank 2. 2 are Holy. Depending on encounters, the Protection paladin heals or tanks.
-2 Rogues. Does almost nothing but DPS.
-2 Mages. Does almost nothing but DPS.
-3 Druids. 1 is Feral, and is main tank 3. 1 is Restoration, 1 is Balance. Depending on encounters, the Feral druid does DPS, tanks or heals and the Balance druid does DPS or heals.
-3 Priests. 1 is Shadow, 2 are Holy. Depending on encounters, the Shadow priest does DPS or heals.
-3 Warlocks. Does almost nothing but DPS.
-3 Shamans. 1 is Restoration, 1 is Enhancement, 1 is Elemental. Depending on encounters, the Enhancement shaman does DPS or heals, and the Elemental shaman does DPS or heals.

So on encounters that require more than 3 tanks, the Arms/Fury warriors step in. On encounters that require only 1 tank, the druid does DPS and the paladin heals, unless more healing is required, in which case the druid also heals.

If Arms/Fury warriors are equal tanks to druids and paladins who specced to tank, you can scrap them entirely and respec them to healers--or maybe even remove one and replace it with a DPS class (as it can easily be argued that one of them specced healing would replace both of them).

Really stop looking at it one sidedly. A feral druid brings MORE to a raid than an dps warrior even on equal footing tanking wise. Why in the world would I want to strip them from a raid when they can tank/pinch heal/decurse/innervate/battlerez/ AND provide one of the best buffs in the game?

For that matter why would I bring a dps warrior to a raid if I have a paladin that can tank/pinch heal/cleanse/buff across the raid and provide auras/ and resurrect?

All I've said thus far is that given the TWO roles a dps warrior can provide in a raid that they be on par with the two other tank classes that can buff/heal/dispell and cleanse/DPS/Tank. Stop jumping to conclusions and read what I've written.

[Tal]

See my note, Tal:D

There will always be times that the druid or pally needs to be healing/dispelling/decursing instead of tanking, so the DPS warrior gets to tank anyway. Flexibility is the biggest thing about a hybrid like a druid, or even a DPS warrior.

You're missing my point Mav on why a dps warrior should be on par or better than a protection specc'd druid/paladin in a raid environment otherwise why bring one or more to a raid if there is competition from a class that can heal/dispell-cleanse/dps/tank? DPS warriors can only play two roles in a raid environment. We can DPS or we can tank. Druids/Paladins can provide so much more utility that warriors have to be at least on par or they wouldn't be considered.

[Taelas]

Based on what you're posting, no, no you haven't and you're certainly not reading my posts.

That's insulting.

Not entirely true. Restoration druids with proper gearing can tank. Maybe not at the raid level but they CAN do the job. How do I know this? I've seen it in action on Stormrage with some of our druids. They also put out decent enough dps in cat form. I've tanked and healed instances on my retn00b specc'd paladin. I hold aggro okay if folks aren't monkeys.

The ability to tank a 5-man instance is completely negligible, because with the proper care, you don't even need a tank in many of them (at least not a class brought along specifically for it). Yes, you can clear a 5-man instance with a warlock's Felguard or a hunter's pet.

Holding a mob's attention with no DPS on it isn't tanking; a Restoration druid cannot deal enough aggro to tank anything as soon as DPS opens up (and I strongly doubt they can hold aggro well enough to keep it away from healers). A Holy paladin cannot either. Retribution paladins are currently a joke for raid purposes, although they can do enough threat (just as Balance druids).

Small nit. It required six tanks who could TAUNT. I've heard of guilds using druids on the Horsemen.

Warriors were brought more regularly than druids.

No no no. Go back and re-read what I stated. If DPS warriors were not at least on par with druids and paladins why would any raid leader bring them to a raid? I specifically asked you what a DPS warrior would bring that was superior to a paladin or a druid or any other dps class. YOU are the one painting me in a world where a raid leader wouldn't want the flexibility that a druid/paladin brings to a raid. The only thing I'm saying is that we should be on equal footing with a feral and a protection specc'd paladin. Stop making assumptions and READ what I wrote.

You're the one assuming that Arms/Fury warriors wouldn't be brought along if Protection paladins and Feral druids are better tanks. Fair's fair.

Really stop looking at it one sidedly. A feral druid brings MORE to a raid than an dps warrior even on equal footing tanking wise. Why in the world would I want to strip them from a raid when they can tank/pinch heal/decurse/innervate/battlerez/ AND provide one of the best buffs in the game?

A Feral druid does not bring DPS equal to an Arms/Fury warrior. He brings healing, DPS and tanking, yes, but his DPS can be replaced favorably by any DPS class in the game (including the warrior), his tanking is apparently equal to the Arms/Fury warrior (who deals more DPS), and his healing would be better as a Restoration druid. Arms/Fury warriors bring consistant high DPS to a raid. They ALSO bring tanking when necessary.

Stop it with the joke-buff; Mark of the Wild is the least notable buff of the class-specific buffs, as it provides only a small bonus (though to almost everything). In other words, it's negligible. Disregarding that, you only need one druid to cast Gift of the Wild five times.

For that matter why would I bring a dps warrior to a raid if I have a paladin that can tank/pinch heal/cleanse/buff across the raid and provide auras/ and resurrect?

Reread my previous post--I updated it a few minutes after posting, and it seems you missed the update. It's right there.

All I've said thus far is that given the TWO roles a dps warrior can provide in a raid that they be on par with the two other tank classes that can buff/heal/dispell and cleanse/DPS/Tank. Stop jumping to conclusions and read what I've written.

Except as soon as they are "on par", it's more beneficial to bring a healer and a DPSer instead of the others.

[Bolty]

No, it doesn't happen often. Why on earth should it? The Arms/Fury warriors specced DPS, and they do it well. Feral druids specced melee, and they do it well, be it DPS or tanking. Let me reiterate: I specced to tank. Why should they bring me if I only do sporadious tanking and DPS and a bit of support healing? In your world, an Arms/Fury warrior can replace me in every aspect but healing, and so I'd be more useful as a Restoration druid.

Sounds to me like you roll with the wrong guild that pigeonholes players into roles too much. Unless you're in one of the uber ultra min-max superguilds like Nihilum or Death and Taxes, there's just no reason for a guild to limit its hybrids to the healing role. Especially in the Burning Crusade, where the hybrids are starting to really shine. Yes, I'm aware the Druid nerf puts a fork in that. The Priest nerfs also seem to be an attempt to limit that. Shadow Priests *rule* in raiding now (before, they were good, but now they're raid-changing) and any guild shunning them is idiotic.

Yeah, being a Druid sucks like that. As someone who tends to manage/oversee healing in a large raiding conglomerate, I'm well aware of how much some of the Druids feel maligned. We're lucky to have all sorts - those Druids who live to heal, some who love to Moonkin, and some who love to feral. One of them in particular was "born to tank."

Even in tanking, the most gear-dependent role of them all, skill often shines. We have a feral Druid who's a hell of a tank and it would really become apparent on tough tanking encounters like the Bug Family of AQ40. Some tanks can handle the chaos, and some can't. When the feral Druid shows up some of our prot Warriors who feel they deserve to tank everything, well, too bad.

From my perspective, that being a dedicated Priest healer, having a feral Druid along *rocks*. Think about what they bring:

1) Solid DPS
2) Ability to tank
3) Combat ressing
4) INNERVATE. Two seconds to pop out of form and Innervating me is *enormous* when facing tough, long encounters. In this sense, the feral Druid becomes a healer simply by giving you the mana power of two Holy Priests instead of one.
5) Spot healing when things go bad/needed

What can Shalandrax, Tal's Warrior, provide me besides his damage/tanking?

1) Intervene, when that big mob is coming to one-shot me

Winnar = Druid.

-Bolty

[Tal]

What can Shalandrax, Tal's Warrior, provide me besides his damage/tanking?

1) Intervene, when that big mob is coming to one-shot me

I was going to say that she fills out her tabard well but Cleoboltra's...um...vast tracks of land kicks her ass in that department.

I lose.:(

[Mavfin]

You're missing my point Mav on why a dps warrior should be on par or better than a protection specc'd druid/paladin in a raid environment otherwise why bring one or more to a raid if there is competition from a class that can heal/dispell-cleanse/dps/tank? DPS warriors can only play two roles in a raid environment. We can DPS or we can tank. Druids/Paladins can provide so much more utility that warriors have to be at least on par or they wouldn't be considered.

Please keep in Mind, Tal, that I was posting *what I think Blizz is trying to do*, not *what I think it should be*:D

I also put in my post that the prot warrior is almost always going to get the big boss anyway, because of his bag of tricks that druids and pallies don't have. Also, on the boss, what's the prot warrior going to do, unless you leave him out of the raid? DPS? Well, 1/2-2/3 of what Shalandrax can do is *something*, I guess. It's better than what I used to do. Still, on the big boss fight, the druid and the pally can help keep the raid alive. The prot warrior can't. Prot warriors are of the most value to the raid taking the beating. Just like the DPS warrior is most help to the raid doing damage to something, unless they're needed to tank. However, prot-specced hybrids can also help tank, just like you can. In guilds like the ones you and I are in, skill will win out anyway, not just class. In the min/maxed guilds, things may be different. We're not there, thankfully.

[Taelas]

Sounds to me like you roll with the wrong guild that pigeonholes players into roles too much. Unless you're in one of the uber ultra min-max superguilds like Nihilum or Death and Taxes, there's just no reason for a guild to limit its hybrids to the healing role. Especially in the Burning Crusade, where the hybrids are starting to really shine. Yes, I'm aware the Druid nerf puts a fork in that. The Priest nerfs also seem to be an attempt to limit that. Shadow Priests *rule* in raiding now (before, they were good, but now they're raid-changing) and any guild shunning them is idiotic.

Unfortunately, that's just how most guilds are. It's simpler to have "pure" classes. It's the lowest common denominator. It stinks.:(

Though I might add that the ultra min-max superguilds such as Nihilum probably has a very fluid raid (even with the same members). When it's working probably, bringing hybrids is the most efficient way to raid.

Yeah, being a Druid sucks like that. As someone who tends to manage/oversee healing in a large raiding conglomerate, I'm well aware of how much some of the Druids feel maligned. We're lucky to have all sorts - those Druids who live to heal, some who love to Moonkin, and some who love to feral. One of them in particular was "born to tank."

Sigh. Can I join your guild?:P("Born to tank" fits me well, though I only realized it around level 51 on my warrior.)

Even in tanking, the most gear-dependent role of them all, skill often shines. We have a feral Druid who's a hell of a tank and it would really become apparent on tough tanking encounters like the Bug Family of AQ40. Some tanks can handle the chaos, and some can't. When the feral Druid shows up some of our prot Warriors who feel they deserve to tank everything, well, too bad.

Tell me about it. One of our best-equipped warriors can't tank a hole in the ground without tripping into it.

From my perspective, that being a dedicated Priest healer, having a feral Druid along *rocks*. Think about what they bring:

It's good to hear, but...

1) Solid DPS

"Solid"... That's a matter of taste, I think. Having been a raiding mage leader, all I can say is that Feral DPS isn't something to cheer about.

2) Ability to tank

Not anymore. <_<

3) Combat ressing

Sure, on a 30-minute cooldown. Still, Rebirth rocks (even with the reagent cost).

4) INNERVATE. Two seconds to pop out of form and Innervating me is *enormous* when facing tough, long encounters. In this sense, the feral Druid becomes a healer simply by giving you the mana power of two Holy Priests instead of one.

Innervates (and Rebirths) do not happen while the druid is tanking.;)Innervating the priest is a good way to wipe a raid if you're the tank.

Otherwise... :wub:Innervate (even though it's not for me).

5) Spot healing when things go bad/needed

And happy to bring it (as long as I'm not forced to constantly heal--at least not without the back-up of a full Restoration spec and the proper gear).

What can Shalandrax, Tal's Warrior, provide me besides his damage/tanking?

1) Intervene, when that big mob is coming to one-shot me

Winnar = Druid.

-Bolty

There is quite a bit more than that.;)Battleshout and Commanding Shout (party-wide only, the more warriors the better), Sunders while tanking (which increases melee DPS), Thunderclap (which slows attack speed, less damage for the tank), Demoralizing Shout (it beats Demoralizing Roar), Disarm (very rarely applicable, admittedly)...

[Tal]

That's insulting.

I haven't insulted you yet. You either hadn't been reading my posts or making blanket assumptions based on what I haven't said.

Holding a mob's attention with no DPS on it isn't tanking; a Restoration druid cannot deal enough aggro to tank anything as soon as DPS opens up (and I strongly doubt they can hold aggro well enough to keep it away from healers). A Holy paladin cannot either. Retribution paladins are currently a joke for raid purposes, although they can do enough threat (just as Balance druids).

Except...I've seen a resto druid and a retribution paladin tank and hold aggro in both five mans, heroics and most recently ot'd in a raid environment. Granted I've not seen a balance or a holy paladin tank in those situations but given how a well played hybrid has surprised me in the past I'm not going to dismiss them as easily as you. I've also seen retribution paladins keep up with me on the DPS meters in the 40 mans (have not raided with him in the new content yet).

Warriors were brought more regularly than druids.

Does that prove that warriors were needed and or required as you asserted?

You're the one assuming that Arms/Fury warriors wouldn't be brought along if Protection paladins and Feral druids are better tanks. Fair's fair.

I'm not assuming anything - I'm asking why a raid leader would voluntarily choose to bring a dps warrior over a protection specc'd paladin or a feral druid in a raid environment. I'm countering your arguments that feral druids/protection specc'd paladins should be better tank choices than a warrior.

A Feral druid does not bring DPS equal to an Arms/Fury warrior. He brings healing, DPS and tanking, yes, but his DPS can be replaced favorably by any DPS class in the game (including the warrior), his tanking is apparently equal to the Arms/Fury warrior (who deals more DPS), and his healing would be better as a Restoration druid. Arms/Fury warriors bring consistant high DPS to a raid. They ALSO bring tanking when necessary.

I make no claims that I'm the best arms/warrior around. I've been in the end game instances such as BWL/AQ40 and Naxx and have seen cat druids keep pace with me. As to a feral druids healing being better as a restoration druid thats not really a valid comparsion is it? I'd tank better as a protection specc'd warrior wouldn't I? We're talking about what a feral druid brings to the raid not what he COULD bring if he was a different spec. Its extremely powerful to have a hybrid that can change gear between fights and assist the healing corps on tough fights. If you think I'm joking I only have to introduce you to Arshes, Mathom and Liska who have done a outstanding job of tanking, healing and DPS in raids.

Stop it with the joke-buff; Mark of the Wild is the least notable buff of the class-specific buffs, as it provides only a small bonus (though to almost everything). In other words, it's negligible. Disregarding that, you only need one druid to cast Gift of the Wild five times.

I don't agree with you about Wild and also don't feel like its even remotely useful to slow down buffing by limiting my raid to one druid buffer. YMMV.

Reread my previous post--I updated it a few minutes after posting, and it seems you missed the update. It's right there.

I'll do so.

Except as soon as they are "on par", it's more beneficial to bring a healer and a DPSer instead of the others.

Only if you're short sighted and small minded enough to not realize the extraordinary power and flexibility that the true hybrids bring to a raid bringing us full circle back to my original argument. Please drive through.

[Mavfin]

Unfortunately, that's just how most guilds are. It's simpler to have "pure" classes. It's the lowest common denominator. It stinks.:(

Seems that you're in the wrong guild. Please don't assume that 'most' guilds are that way. Only the most narrow-minded are. When I tanked with Tal and Bolty and friends, we weren't that way. On Terenas, where I have my Horde toons, we're not that way, and on Uldum, where I am now, with a crew that raids to fit my time schedule (i.e. not as much as Tal and friends, I just don't have that much time anymore), we don't think that way.

There's always an element of min/maxers who think that only 'pure' classes have a place in a raid.

BC has increased the hybrid's power a lot. Ask people who play pallies, druids, and shamans. They know. My Elem/Resto shaman is just *sick* how much flexibility she brings to a group. And the groups I'm in understand how to *use* that flexibility, not do away with it by demanding that I respec to Resto only.

There's a lot of ways to play WoW. Some guilds think the 'pure' way is the only way. It's only *one* way. Keep that in mind. If you're a skilled player, other guilds can be found. It doesn't take 40 to make a raid now, after all.

[Taelas]

I haven't insulted you yet. You either hadn't been reading my posts or making blanket assumptions based on what I haven't said.

No, I haven't.

Except...I've seen a resto druid and a retribution paladin tank and hold aggro in both five mans, heroics and most recently ot'd in a raid environment. Granted I've not seen a balance or a holy paladin tank in those situations but given how a well played hybrid has surprised me in the past I'm not going to dismiss them as easily as you. I've also seen retribution paladins keep up with me on the DPS meters in the 40 mans (have not raided with him in the new content yet).

Like I said, the ability to tank a 5-man instance is negligible. I can't comment on Heroic instances, as I haven't set foot in one yet. I can only say I would not go into one with a Restoration druid as the main tank, knowing just how weak a Restoration druid is as a tank.
Are you certain the druid wasn't a Feral/Restoration hybrid?

Pre-TBC, druids had 1.75 modifiers on Maul, which allowed well-geared Restoration druids to hold aggro, but we lost the modifier and got Mangle instead (and Lacerate a bit later), plus some increased damage thanks to gear upgrades. I honestly cannot see a Restoration druid holding aggro even off of healers after the nerf.

Assuming equal level gear, the Retribution spec is currently the weakest DPS spec of all classes. I've never seen a Retribution paladin on even top-15 in a 40-man raid on the DPS meter, and I've raided with a damn well skilled Retribution paladin. Of course, my raid group has always looked down on off-specs.

Does that prove that warriors were needed and or required as you asserted?

No.

I'm not assuming anything - I'm asking why a raid leader would voluntarily choose to bring a dps warrior over a protection specc'd paladin or a feral druid in a raid environment. I'm countering your arguments that feral druids/protection specc'd paladins should be better tank choices than a warrior.

Why? Higher DPS than the Feral druid.

I make no claims that I'm the best arms/warrior around. I've been in the end game instances such as BWL/AQ40 and Naxx and have seen cat druids keep pace with me. As to a feral druids healing being better as a restoration druid thats not really a valid comparsion is it? I'd tank better as a protection specc'd warrior wouldn't I? We're talking about what a feral druid brings to the raid not what he COULD bring if he was a different spec. Its extremely powerful to have a hybrid that can change gear between fights and assist the healing corps on tough fights. If you think I'm joking I only have to introduce you to Arshes, Mathom and Liska who have done a outstanding job of tanking, healing and DPS in raids.

A cat druid who keeps pace with you isn't spot healing, he isn't innervating, and he isn't rebirthing. He can't do those AND keep pace; it ain't happening--unless he plains out-damages you, which I'm NOT seeing as possible. As soon as he's forced to do any of that, his DPS drops.

Turning the question around, why would a raid leader bring a Feral druid if his tanking is less than/equal to the warriors', his DPS is less than the warriors' (a fact assuming his innervate, rebirths or healing is required at some point), and he would heal more as a Restoration druid and still provide both innervates and rebirths?

I don't agree with you about Wild and also don't feel like its even remotely useful to slow down buffing by limiting my raid to one druid buffer. YMMV.
I'll do so.

I know for a fact that the first buff I mind losing while raiding as a mage is Mark of the Wild. Power Word: Fortitude is far too much health to lose, Blessing of Kings is... well, "king", Power Word: Spirit increases my spelldamage, Arcane Intellect is essential, Blessing of Salvation is a must. Mark of the Wild is a negligible health/mana boost, a non-factoral armor bonus and a tiny resistance bonus (which is cancelled out as soon as I'm grouped with a paladin or buffed by a priest).

Only if you're short sighted and small minded enough to not realize the extraordinary power and flexibility that the true hybrids bring to a raid bringing us full circle back to my original argument. Please drive through.

Except each and every piece of extraordinary power and flexibility can be gotten in other, better ways. Replace the Feral druid with a rogue and the Protection paladin with a Holy paladin and push the Fury warriors forward to tank; voilá: More DPS, equal tanking and more healing.

[Taelas]

Seems that you're in the wrong guild. Please don't assume that 'most' guilds are that way. Only the most narrow-minded are. When I tanked with Tal and Bolty and friends, we weren't that way. On Terenas, where I have my Horde toons, we're not that way, and on Uldum, where I am now, with a crew that raids to fit my time schedule (i.e. not as much as Tal and friends, I just don't have that much time anymore), we don't think that way.

There's always an element of min/maxers who think that only 'pure' classes have a place in a raid.

BC has increased the hybrid's power a lot. Ask people who play pallies, druids, and shamans. They know. My Elem/Resto shaman is just *sick* how much flexibility she brings to a group. And the groups I'm in understand how to *use* that flexibility, not do away with it by demanding that I respec to Resto only.

There's a lot of ways to play WoW. Some guilds think the 'pure' way is the only way. It's only *one* way. Keep that in mind. If you're a skilled player, other guilds can be found. It doesn't take 40 to make a raid now, after all.

I have a lot of good RL friends (not to mention quite a bit of family) in my current raid group... One which I'm quite close to quitting regardless. It's not a bad raid group by any means, it's just the direction it's being taken in is ... urgh. Frustrating.

The server I play on is old and very established. It really is not easy to find a new raid group.

[Mavfin]

I have a lot of good RL friends (not to mention quite a bit of family) in my current raid group... One which I'm quite close to quitting regardless. It's not a bad raid group by any means, it's just the direction it's being taken in is ... urgh. Frustrating.

The server I play on is old and very established. It really is not easy to find a new raid group.

Then you've made your bed, and now you have to sleep in it. Good luck. Both of my servers are original, too.