Fear in 1.11

[MongoJerry]

There was an interesting post on the official Blizzard forums describing the new fear mechanic going live in 1.11. According to Putricia:

This info is for level-60 characters, because there are no low-level premades.


Fear will now break if a certain DPS threshold is breached. You have to do about 500 DPS over the span of one game tic (about 1.5 seconds) to do this. It means that one direct damage spell that does over 500 damage breaks fear. It also means that the fear-breakage criteria now implicitely takes into account the effect of +spell damage gear.

Dots work this same way. If a warlock loads up an opponent with Corruption, CoA, and Immoliate, then fears them, and then all three dots happen to do damage in the same tic that totals more than 500 damage, fear breaks.

Pet damage and damage from third-parties (like a warrior who charges you while you are feared) also figure in to the DPS threshold calculation. If a warlock fears someone and does nothing, but a hunter autoshots the feared person for 500 white damage, then fear breaks.

This is advertised as fear having a decreased chance to break from DOTs, but it's only decreased compared to direct damage because it isn't gauranteed that multiple DOTS will do damage in the same tic. Now for fear to be reliable, warlocks actually need to use *less* +spell damage to keep under the DPS threshold where fear breaks. 500 DPS in one game tic is easily exceeded by any warlock in epic gear.

Basically, expect to see seduce+nuke coming back into style big-time, especially versus healing casters where slowly grinding down health is not a viable option. If you remember warlocks in patch 1.6, this is what it will be like at level 60 post-1.11.

The secondary effect is that the PVP trinket isn't so usefull anymore, unless you want to use it to break seduce. Fear will break on its own pretty fast if the warlock is actually trying to fight you.

Finally, note that these are PVP changes. Fear doesn't break this easily in PVE -- I was able to do major DPS against mobs without fear breaking. I would guess that the fear-break threshold is calculated as a percentage of the target's total life. For players the percentage works out to around 500 damage on average, but for the mobs I tested on the percentage gave a higher DPS threshold (I tested the WS elite demons which have about 18K hp).

A CM said earlier that fear breaks three times more easily in PvP than in PvE, so perhaps you have to break the 1500 dps barrier for fear to break in PvE? How does shadow resistance factor into this?

[Artega]

There was an interesting post on the official Blizzard forums describing the new fear mechanic going live in 1.11. According to Putricia:
A CM said earlier that fear breaks three times more easily in PvP than in PvE, so perhaps you have to break the 1500 dps barrier for fear to break in PvE? How does shadow resistance factor into this?

I'd assume Shadow Resistance affects only the initial part of the Fear; that is, whether or not it affects you at all. Since Fear effects have no damage components (except Death Coil, and that's a Horror effect), I don't think a partial resist would be likely. I'll strap on my Shadow Resistance gear on my retired 60 and test it with a friend or two after 1.11 goes live and see what I can find out.

[Zarathustra]

I hate to be cynical like this... but how much do you want to be Entangling Roots accidentally feels some collateral damage?

[Watto44]

Well, I hope that this doesn't put warlocks back where they were before their patch. (You know, back when you could beat them 1 on 1.:P) I don't play a lock so I can't really judge, but the nerf seems reasonable, it's just a matter of judging the threshold at which fear breaks. Have it set too low and you basically have an unreliable sheep spell, set too high and you accomplish nothing.

I hate to be cynical like this... but how much do you want to be Entangling Roots accidentally feels some collateral damage?

Entangling Roots is already so fickle in PvP that even if there was some spill over I doubt anyone would notice. Couple that with the fact that it can only be used outdoors and about 99% of the population wouldn't notice if you changed the duration to 5 seconds.:)Unfortunately, you're probably right and my days of using roots to cat-form kite people are numbered.:(

On a side note, I'd actually love some concrete knowledge on the mechanics behind roots breaking beyond the old "moofire/starfire makes it break really early".

[Zippyy]

There was an interesting post on the official Blizzard forums describing the new fear mechanic going live in 1.11.

Is it just Fear? What about Howl of Terror, Psychic Scream, and Intimidating Shout? Death Coil's horror effect is getting a change too, is it not?

Fear is, I think, more abused in its current form than priests' or warriors' fears since Psychic Scream has a cooldown so it can't be used to keep a target feared indefinitely and warriors can't heap on ranged damage while their target(s) are feared. It makes me wonder whether these other fear effects will be changed as well just to maintain a standard.

What patch is this? 1.11? Fear nerf #11, then!:P

[fractaled]

Is it just Fear? What about Howl of Terror, Psychic Scream, and Intimidating Shout? Death Coil's horror effect is getting a change too, is it not?

Those first three are classified as "fears". Ie anti-fear trinkets can break them. I think Death Coil was made different because it's one sure-fire way for warlocks to get something off of them.

Fear is, I think, more abused in its current form than priests' or warriors' fears since Psychic Scream has a cooldown so it can't be used to keep a target feared indefinitely and warriors can't heap on ranged damage while their target(s) are feared.

It probably matters more in BGs where you'll often see 2-3 AOE fears in a fight. As a MS warrior (not undead), if I'm in the wrong stance when a fear goes off, I will often spend the next 15 seconds running around feared -- and I may die before it breaks.

[Rinnhart]

Those first three are classified as "fears". Ie anti-fear trinkets can break them. I think Death Coil was made different because it's one sure-fire way for warlocks to get something off of them.

Howl of Terror and Intimidating shout have been skipped over in previous fear effect nerfs, notably by having the same base duration for PCs as NPCs.

It probably matters more in BGs where you'll often see 2-3 AOE fears in a fight. As a MS warrior (not undead), if I'm in the wrong stance when a fear goes off, I will often spend the next 15 seconds running around feared -- and I may die before it breaks.

And if you're anything but a warrior class and you're feared that long, with someone actively attacking you, you WILL be dead before it breaks. Group PVP, it's a fair change. But how it effects world PVP is going to define how the community responds to it.

[Quark]

Group PVP, it's a fair change. But how it effects world PVP is going to define how the community responds to it.

Don't remind me. Rogues are still smarting because of the advantage Stealth gives us in world PVP, which I still have only participated in maybe 4 times total.

[MongoJerry]

Don't remind me. Rogues are still smarting because of the advantage Stealth gives us in world PVP, which I still have only participated in maybe 4 times total.

Which was your choice, of course.

[Zippyy]

Which was your choice, of course.

*flames Bolty*

[Lissa]

Howl of Terror and Intimidating shout have been skipped over in previous fear effect nerfs, notably by having the same base duration for PCs as NPCs.

That is due to the cool down on the spells. There is diminishing returns on spells that where the effect lasts longer than the cooldown (Fear, Seduce, Frostshock, and others). Anytime the effect is shorter than atleast double the cooldown, there is no diminishing return from that player (this may extend to other players as well as I remember several times being ganged up on by a pair of rogues and never leaving stun until I was dead).

[oldmandennis]

Don't remind me. Rogues are still smarting because of the advantage Stealth gives us in world PVP

And battle grounds, if you are trying to win and not zerg.

[Rinnhart]

That is due to the cool down on the spells. There is diminishing returns on spells that where the effect lasts longer than the cooldown (Fear, Seduce, Frostshock, and others). Anytime the effect is shorter than atleast double the cooldown, there is no diminishing return from that player (this may extend to other players as well as I remember several times being ganged up on by a pair of rogues and never leaving stun until I was dead).

I didn't mean diminishing returns- those spells had the same mechanics for handling duration and break chance with players as with NPCs, meaning they usually lasted their full duration regardless of what was happening. Fear and Psychic scream haven't done that in a very long time, for good reason.

[Concillian]

That is due to the cool down on the spells. There is diminishing returns on spells that where the effect lasts longer than the cooldown (Fear, Seduce, Frostshock, and others). Anytime the effect is shorter than atleast double the cooldown, there is no diminishing return from that player (this may extend to other players as well as I remember several times being ganged up on by a pair of rogues and never leaving stun until I was dead).

This is absolutely not the case.

I've used howl of terror and intimidating shout and seen an 'Immune' because DR had set in. Similarly with stuns (as a warrior charge is often the first thing you do... and the stun is 1 second with a 15 second cooldown, so fits into the Lissa-craft diminishing returns categories... to get an 'immune' on that pretty much guarantees things don't work like you think they do).

Kidney shot is the same thing, When using my rogue I'll cheap shot to open most of the time. People catch up and do some other stuns and I can get an immune on kidney shot (6 sec stun / 20 sec cooldown)

In my experience, diminishing returns works just like Blizzard has advertised, effect durations are reset after 15 seconds of not having the effect on them.

And even with DR, 2 rogues can keep you in stun for 9 seconds (CS 4 , KS 3 , KS 1.5). I'd think that long enough for 2 rogues to mutilate a warlock.

[Quark]

And even with DR, 2 rogues can keep you in stun for 9 seconds (CS 4 , KS 3 , KS 1.5). I'd think that long enough for 2 rogues to mutilate a warlock.

Oh my god! Two people killing one! Someone call the presses!

[Lissa]

This is absolutely not the case.

I've used howl of terror and intimidating shout and seen an 'Immune' because DR had set in. Similarly with stuns (as a warrior charge is often the first thing you do... and the stun is 1 second with a 15 second cooldown, so fits into the Lissa-craft diminishing returns categories... to get an 'immune' on that pretty much guarantees things don't work like you think they do).

Try it some time then if you think I'm wrong. If you wait out twice the lenght of the effect, which happens automatically with HoT, DR does not kick in. I've tested it and what I'm saying is correct. If you've ever watched a duel, you'd see this.

Kidney shot is the same thing, When using my rogue I'll cheap shot to open most of the time. People catch up and do some other stuns and I can get an immune on kidney shot (6 sec stun / 20 sec cooldown)

In my experience, diminishing returns works just like Blizzard has advertised, effect durations are reset after 15 seconds of not having the effect on them.

And even with DR, 2 rogues can keep you in stun for 9 seconds (CS 4 , KS 3 , KS 1.5). I'd think that long enough for 2 rogues to mutilate a warlock.

Not against a Warlock, against a Hunter with good armor. Stunlocked for around 15 to 20 seconds before they killed me. So, care to explain that?

[Concillian]

I'll continue to believe big IMMUNE letters rather than somone's sense of 9 seconds vs. 15 seconds when in the middle of getting a serious beatdown by 2 rogues at once.

Sorry, but sense of time when PvPing is quite skewed. And big IMMUNE letters when using charge, kidney shot, howl of terror or intimidating shout are about as clear as it gets.

[castille]

'15 second' stunlocks? I can explain 20 second if perfectly timed and coordinated. Work up 3 combo points, vanish, cheap shot, talented gouge, kidney shot. Done. Cheap shot and kidney don't share cooldowns, and getting 3 combo points is pretty easy with SS, SS, thistle, SS, vanish.

edit: and 'perfectly timing' is relatively easy with stunwatch/ccWatch/Carnival running

[Quark]

Not against a Warlock, against a Hunter with good armor. Stunlocked for around 15 to 20 seconds before they killed me. So, care to explain that?

Ironically, you're talking about 15-20 seconds of stun when being alive that long, versus any 2 players, is pretty miraculous when you're alone. Anyway, stuns have seperate diminishing returns, fear as a whole has the same diminishing return.

Cheap Shot: 4
Cheap Shot(2): 2
Kidney Shot: 6
Kidney Shot(2): 3

15, right there, excluding Blind, Gouge, and a vanish to reapply Cheap Shot. Also note that Kidney Shot's diminishing returns timer lasts 20 seconds (not 15). The cooldown for KS is 20 seconds, so getting Improved Kidney Shot is a bad idea, because it only means you're subjecting yourself to diminishing returns when actually utilizing it.

[Lissa]

I'll continue to believe big IMMUNE letters rather than somone's sense of 9 seconds vs. 15 seconds when in the middle of getting a serious beatdown by 2 rogues at once.

Sorry, but sense of time when PvPing is quite skewed. And big IMMUNE letters when using charge, kidney shot, howl of terror or intimidating shout are about as clear as it gets.

Not when you have a UI mod that has timers for when you're skill is available and you watch a timer that takes 30 seconds to countdown (Scattershot) go from 30 (when the fight started) to 15 or 10 before you go down.

No sence of time in PvP needed Conc, simply using a UI mode and watching what it says.