Effective Amazon Build

[Archon_Wing]

Whoa, I wouldn't go to hell at level 57 even during 1.09. I'm quite sure a lot of characters are not viable if you expect them to go to hell so early.

I think my amazon equipped with a kuko shakuku and freezing/immolation arrow does quite fine. In a one player game in act 5 nightmare, champions are nothing. (Except the fire immunes) She's level 57 I believe and while I can't kill everything so fast, I can still hold my own in larger games. I just built up my mana reserve with any mana charms I could find and carry about two rows worth of mana potions. It's a bit rough occasionaly, but I don't have any form of mana leech. :) It's not like mana potions are expensive. Certainly a bow of high calibar like lycander's aim can go further than my Kuku. :)

[Thecla]

Well, as a parenthetical remark, in D1 weapon da was essentially irrelevant for higher lvl characters (a short bow was just as good as a long war bow in the hands of a rogue with the stats to reach stun da). Perhaps this was too much, but D2 seemed to swing to the opposite extreme, almost as a reaction.

D2 has always been too item dependent IMO, and I think D1 was closer to the way things should be than D2 ever was -- all the more so in 1.10 which tried to redress the balance of the items that were ridiculously overpowered in 1.09. The temptation of adding item candy, and then trying to balance the game so that it wasn't absurdly easy for characters with the sweetest items, has made average, everyday items almost useless for attacks that don't depend on skill lvls for their da. And the ability to deal da is the king (or queen) of 1.10.

Now, I do agree that 1.10 has made it easier to find the items you need, e.g. with much increased drop rates of elite items and nice pockets of high lvl monsters, but in my experience, anyway, it's still not that easy to get them (let alone find some of the higher lvl runes, not even the really rare ones, you need for upgrading etc.) until you have a viable mf character who can supply themselves or others with the necessary candy.

Of course, my perspective may be skewed by the fact that I don't trade (an old D1 habit I guess ;) ) and I tend to play relatively untwinked (though I'm no 'purist' in that regard). But, personally, I don't think items should dictate the game play as much as they do now.

[JustAGuy]

While it is true that a level 57 should never go into hell, nor should she be expected to be viable, I did mention that I went to hell *just to see*... I figured that her physical damage wasn't going to be increasing by much, and her Freezing Arrow was already at max, so why not? The AR problem combined with her low damage output and lack of crushing blow/slow monster/PMH etc caused a big fat dispairity between my killing speed and everyone else in the game (namely the sorceress).

Since I play in private games only, I just went back to nightmare. The problem there was that, without the aforementioned crushing blow and a good bow, I was still unable to effectively dish out the sweet sweet damage. She was innefective in nightmare act 4 and 5. And forget about immunities -- if a cold immune came up, it was over. Not nearly enough physical damage was being done, and I didn't have any fancy tricks up my sleeve to take care of them.

That is the reason for this thread. I want to make a Bowazon, particularly one that uses Lycander's Aim (since I found it); I wanted to see if I'd be wasting my time or not (level 57 is awfully young to retire).

I haven't yet been able to make a decent bowie in 1.10. Paladins yes, Sorceresses yes, Trappers yes. Barbarians, Druids, Necro (because I haven't wanted to play a Necro), or Amazons - NO. Some for lack of trying (barb and necro), some because I can't come up with a decent build.

If my next attempt at an Amazon fails, I'm moving on. I'll try a spear/javelin zon or something. That's the beauty of this game. There are lots of options.

[Archon_Wing]

Did you know that the diffrence between clvl and mlvl severely hampers your ability to hit monsters and actualy damage them in the first place? :)

[JustAGuy]

Did you know that the diffrence between clvl and mlvl severely hampers your ability to hit monsters and actualy damage them in the first place?

Yes, I did. The thing with Freezing Arrow is that you don't really need to worry about it, since it does spash damage, and I think it will always hit (along the lines of that firey type arrow). The curve is always a consideration, and the fact that I went into hell at level 57 isn't the reason why I asked about the Amazon's viability; I wouldn't make a judgement on the viabiliy of the Amazon (Bowazon) based on a level 57's effectiveness in Hell. No, rather, I made the judgement based on my 57's effectiveness in nightmare (which was abysmal), and seeing how she wasn't going to get much better, Hell would have been unbearable.

See, I'm mostly a Paladin player, and I'm very aware of the clvl/mlvl curve. It impacts every combat aspect of the game when approaching it from a melee stand point. A level 10 doesn't have a chance to hit a level 80 monster, unless his AR is ridiculously high, to the point where the Diablo 2 development team would go, "nah, no one would ever get their AR that high" and would subsequently cause a rollover when the number is too large for the allotted quantity in memory. Well ok, maybe, not that high, but I wouldn't put it past the developer(s).

You know, I've decided to try a new hammerdin before I try this Amazon -- he's going to be a hammerdin, with a little "zealot action" on the side. A friend is making a fanaticism zealot along with me, so our two auras will complement each other, and with the right equipment (a lightsabre perhaps? Lots of AR boosts?) I think I might be able to make a nice all purpose character. He converts, he avenges, he hammers, he zeals, he smites, he charges... should be fun.

Edit: typo and a re-wording.

[Archon_Wing]

The thing with Freezing Arrow is that you don't really need to worry about it, since it does spash damage, and I think it will always hit (along the lines of that firey type arrow).

I don't think frozen arrow is autohit anymore. If you check the screen it has an attack rating now.

ps. What stats skills, damage, equipment?

[Thecla]

AFAIK (though I'm willing to be corrected ;) ) the elemental da on FA hits automatically on the first target. If the arrow hits, then it does the additional physical da and also reapplies the elemental da as well (and it only has a chance to pierce and da more targets, lying graphics screen notwithstanding, if it hits).

So FA is autohit in a sense, but having a high to hit % is still really beneficial (the to hit bonus with high skill lvl is a big help here).

Guided arrow is the only true autohit arrow skill now, and it's very usefull on that account alone.

[Epi]

The comment is in reference to the supposition (that I was responding to, attempting to deny) that ladder zons are all unbalanced LF zons that can't handle hell but instead just farm xp.

With 100% pierce the cows still offer an ideal environment to "safely" farm xp

Well, cows are ideal killing targets for LF 'zon indeed, but it doesn't mean that LF 'zons cannot handle other areas of hell. After all, LF is powerfull enough even without any synergies (which add... what?.. 1% per skill point invested), so you can put a lot of points into other skills. Yes, if you're specializing in lightning, LI monsters will be tough for you - poison just doesn't do enough damage, so you have to jab/fend, but with some patience it is possible for her to kill everybody... and I'm not even talking about parties with non-lightning chars. :)

However, if you don't have a high level of piercing, then the math in favor of LF/cowpacks isn't compelling.

Well, if you don't have Razortail, you have to put points into the skill, that's correct. :P And so what? LF javazon can afford it.

Still, since you can do this cookie cutter build, I needed to deny the plausibility that all 200 of the hc ladder zons are using it.

Bear in mind that I'm countering varoius objections to zon abilities (which I don't believe hold up). I myself am not advocating any particular build for zons. Merely asserting that I don't believe zons are hopeless in hell in v1.10.

Anyway, my point was not that all other amazon builds suck. Quite frankly, I just don't know by myself - my only 'zon in 1.10 happened to be LF/CS javazon, - although from what I read on AB forums, bowazons are not hopeless, so you're most likely correct in that.

My point was - and I still insists on it, - that you cannot tell viability of particular subclass by looking at ladder. Hey, there were a lot of druids on ladder in 1.09, and guess how many of them were elemental? ;)

[Crystalion]

My point was - and I still insists on it, - that you cannot tell viability of particular subclass by looking at ladder. Hey, there were a lot of druids on ladder in 1.09, and guess how many of them were elemental? ;)

Nah, I guess, as usual, that I wasn't clear, because that's not what I meant to say at all.

I was not focused on the viability of any particular subclass. My argument was:

1. unless the ladder data is "cooked" then clearly zons as a class can do okay in hell (required xp for the clvl noted)

2. it seems highly unlikely to me that all those zons are just one unbalanced build type that can be "dismissed" as good only in a very limited subsection of hell--surely you'll grant me that they're in hell, as their level/titles indicate?

3. therefore it seems likely to me "statistically" (which I had in quotes, since this is seat of the pants and not exact reasoning) that we're likely seeing evidence that *some* zon builds have been found that more or less "work" in hell

4. Despite that reasoning seeming pretty good to me, I still think *asking* for successful zons on AB zon forum to speak up would be a better "proof"

Please remember that the original post is questioning whether an "effective amazon build" for v1.10 hell is possible.

While I made some side references to subpoints about particular subclasses and zon builds, these are not relevant to the core argument, 1..3. Nor are they important, given that #4 defers, given my limited expertise, to the folks that would *really* know the answer.

Now that that is out of the way, I'd have to agree with your statement, unless, perhaps, the beginning of the ladder showed a huge lead for a particular class over all others, in which case it would be reasonable to ask "how did Blizzard goof? What skill are these guys using that is so quick to level up?" This might indeed, in those circumstances, point a finger at a likely subclass.

On the hardcore ladder you get a tiny clue about subclasses by looking at the death frequencies (at least when the ladder started up). You can probably get a much better clue by snooping people's level/portrait in bnet channels, since you can often infer quite a bit about their subclass from their appearence.

In any event, my v1.10 ladder primary is a subclass of Sorc that plays more like some zon subclass than a fireball sorc (the two other builds she is probably "closest" to). I'm a ranged enchantress, using demon/razor.

I personally feel that an enchanted zon with a teleport ammy/circ can do a better job, most of the time, at doing what I actually do, most of the time (e.g. if you assume there is already a melee enchantress in game, which would be "better" to the add to the party, me or a zon?... I'd vote for the zon--player quality/equip/level etc. being equal, of course).

[Caaroid]

Well, I got a 6k damage fireball sorc, and a (listed) 4k damage ranged/melee enchantress combo as well. It came as a surprise to me (well, I did not think about it THAT hard), but the enchantress kills crowds a LOT faster than the FB sorc (she uses demon and razor for shooting btw). Sure you loose block and a decent amount of resists, but it just feels so powerful ;)

[whyBish]

but the enchantress kills crowds a LOT faster than the FB sorc

Yup. Mongo lapped my CS/LF zon twice (levelled past me to deep hell twice with two ranged enchantress sorcs). teleporting + enchant + exploding bow = lots of quick carnage, us poor walkers can't keep up :P

[whyBish]

I probably should have just shut up, and posted points to AB zon guides for v1.10, eh? :D

If you shut up, I would be playing blind!

[Crystalion]

Well, I got  a 6k damage fireball sorc, and a (listed) 4k damage ranged/melee enchantress combo as well. It came as a surprise to me (well, I did not think about it THAT hard), but the enchantress kills crowds a LOT faster than the FB sorc (she uses demon and razor for shooting btw).

This is why I say my sorc is closer to a subclass zon... it is the power of piercing that makes the EA blasts so powerful. Bear in mind that the LCS™ is correct for melee damage, but is misstating your EA damage (the Fire Mastery, by testing, is not applied a second time *ranged*, but the screen shows the damage as if it does).

Therefore it is likely that you meant: 6k fireball, 4k melee, much much less than 4k ranged (although sometimes the "correct" figure would be doubled, when both the arrow and splash hit a single target).

But the power of teleporting to play keep away and line up good piercing opportunities really magnifies that ~2k EA (can hit for 2k, splash for 2k, miss the immediate next target, but splash for 2k, doing 6k to the first target and 4k to the second, just as a modest e.g.).

Some people have claimed that the blast radius for EA is bigger than that of Fireball. I don't know, myself, not having tested it (I mistrust mpq/code reading for matters of fact that can fairly easily be tested).

I am under the impression that a "sick" +fire build for Fireball or Meteor gets insane damage compared to the same "sick" Enchant build. The "Sorc" skill calculator for example, gives ~3700 fire damage for a no+skill 20skill/20mastery/40max_synergy FB build, leaping to ~15k when you manage +20fire skills, whereas it lists (incorrect for melee, correct afaik for ranged) ~600 for 20skill/20mastery/20max_synergy for Enchant leaping only to ~3k with +20fire skills.

In other words, the comparision you're making is valid at "sane" levels of +fire equip (i.e. Enchant demon/razor appears to win handily vs. FB, using a lot fewer skill points to boot), but probably isn't a fair comparision for someone who can reasonably expect to get a whole lot of +fire gear and GCs.

+12 fire on the body equip is very very easy/cheap to obtain on ladder (3 head, 3 ammy, 3 hexfire, 1 shield, 1 magefists, 1 torso). An extreme build picks up five more points there, iirc. Then you can have BO, shrine, Anni, 10 GC for up to 14 more (afaik, iirc). Hypothetically you can beat the Mang Song via the elusive perfect Leaf staff (+3 fire, +3 Enc/Fireball, +3 Fire Mastery).

Realistically anyone that wants to can probably manage ~+12 without trading by time they're high enough level to gamble +3 tree circ/ammy (not very high, iirc).

For reference the +12 figure is: FB ~9600; Enchant ~1700.

In other words, the Fireball build is easier "solo" to achieve higher damage (i.e. assuming no trading, playing by yourself for +fire/skill items) and it only gets more lopsided in favor of extreme FB damage if you allow extreme +fire gear.

But the Enchant build is fun, and very party friendly. And in players 1 at least, the Enchanted demon/razor damage with not much over +10 fire seems to be more than enough to get the job done (apart from fire immunes, which FB sucks even worse at, because demon at least has physical and can carry PMH type effects).

Still, I partied once with a Meteor sorc for a short while in hell durance 2... constant rain of meteors ahead of the party and nothing non-fire-immune survived it. There is a lot to be said for such "hammer of god" power, eh? :)

Of course once a doll got next to her before the meteor nailed him, and his death nailed her. So YMMV :D

[Caaroid]

Bear in mind that the LCS™ is correct for melee damage, but is misstating your EA damage (the Fire Mastery, by testing, is not applied a second time *ranged*, but the screen shows the damage as if it does).

I knew that, this is exactly the reason why I was surprised to find out that the enchantress killed faster than the fireball sorc. The enchantress also has trouble with the zero-fast-cast situation (lev 22 teleport is only fun if you can hop at least twice an hour you know ;). The really funny thing is killing ghost packs, with the 5+ times applied splash damage :)

I totally agree with you about the ranged enchantress being more of a zon than a sorc. My idea for my character that she'd play like a teleporting ZealRanger; most of the time shooting from behind my defiance merc (4k defense really matters some actually), and against tough bosses whatever she'd teleport around and Zeal for the fire mastery bonus. I am sorry to report that Zeal swings seem just s fast as normal swings for Sikh_Bastard (she uses 35% off-weapon IAS totalling 60% ias with a Passion Phase Blade), so she basically just "gain" zeal-lock with Zeal... I guess I'd be better off with a SHAEL phase blade... we'll see.

(It has been suggested in MongoJerry's Enchantress Guide thread that Berserk might convert elemental damage to fire damage - well, at least for an enchantress, it does not seem to be the case.)

I actually found cleg's gloves to be enormously powerful for an enchantress, not only for the koncback, more so for the slow. Sikh does not use it (it intervenes with Zeal), but she used to have it and she really misses the slow effect of those gloves.

This would also lead me to think that bowazons sould rely on all the special effects they can get their hands on (hit blinds target, freeze, flee, knocnback, slow, etc), but for me it still feels that (assuming solo play) they got beaten with the nerf stick hardest of all the classes (I used to quit playing ms zon since she was too powerful to be fun - now she's too weak to keep me interested. Then again, maybe if I redesigned her... Ah heck, I'll just make a ladder enchantress.)

[whyBish]

Hypothetically you can beat the Mang Song via the elusive perfect Leaf staff (+3 fire, +3 Enc/Fireball, +3 Fire Mastery).

Hypothetically you can beat that by using orb shield, but finding a +3 fire skills orb with +3 enc/fb/fm and a suffix of fast cast (or otherwise) is gonna be zod-like

[Caaroid]

I got a +3 fire skills +3 enchant orb, that means +4 mastery +7 enchant. I do not know what a Mang Song would do or wether I beat it or not, but posessing this item made me decide against making a ladder enchantress ;)