So...

[ShadowHM]

I will never know what it's like to "come out" to your friends, but I suspect that in a way it's similar to professing Christian beliefs on a Diablo forum.

Nystul, I don't want to belittle your belief system. You are as entitled to it as I am to mine. But that statement makes it obvious that you really don't understand the dangers in 'coming out'.

Similar? Maybe, in that you expose yourself to ridicule. But a Diablo forum is not where you live. It is a small community that is only peripheral to your 'real life'. It is part of where you play, not where you live.

Coming out can mean, as Ashael recounted, losing your friends completely. It can mean physical harm to go with the emotional harm of losing your support system. It can be a profoundly shattering thing.

Depending on the family background involved, it can be worse than losing friends. It can mean utter rejection from your family too, as Ashkael fears.

The young man I referred to in my response to DeeBye's 'generalization' has struggled and will continue to struggle, I fear, with profound depression. He comes from a devout Muslim family where his parents expect to choose a spouse for him in due course. He has tried to broach the topic and met a brick wall of denial, which he admits is better than what he thinks would take place if they believed him. He is an amazingly high achiever in academics. He tries so hard to be perfect in every way for them, and he knows that he cannot ever compensate for what they will go through if and when they acknowledge that he is a homosexual.

I do hope you will never know what it is like. But don't trivialize it by comparing it to what you deal with as a professed Christian posting in a Diablo forum.

[eppie]

If your attitude about marriage is really this casual, you don't deserve the right to get married even if you were "straight". This is about a sacred bond, a lifelong commitment to a loving relationship, a joining of families and the foundation of a new one. This institution does not deserve to be held hostage over healthcare rights and joint tax returns. If the political climate does change and you get the right to marry whomever you choose, I hope you will take that institution seriously and make a commitment to someone you will be willing to spend the rest of your life with.

And if the government chooses to remove all legal implications of marriage and handle each issue (guardianship, tax issues, health care, joint ownership of property) separately, then I would have no problem with you getting your "slice of the cake". Unfortunately though, that's not how this issue is going to play out, and I'm more concerned with the future of the sacred institution than I am with getting good deals on health care.

The "sacred institution" as you call it, has everything to do with religion. Marriage does not (I got married in my city's townhall) and should also not. Marriage is for me nothing sacred, it just the commitment from me and my wife to each other. The church does not have anything to do with the state, the state does not tell you what religion you have to have. So the president should mind his own business in this case, he has no right whatsoever to block any marriage. Even the judges tell him this. If anyone thinks his marriage is worth less because also gay people can get married, than that is his own problem.

Maybe the mormons don't like the way you (in general) do it because the think you should marry more wives, but do you think they have the right to force you to marry another wife?) :unsure:

[Ashkael]

Been there, done that, thought I covered it already in this thread. I've had friends who are homosexual. Whatever enlightenment I was supposed to gain from that, I must have missed.

Obviously those friends didn’t mean too much to you or else you wouldn’t have made such a senseless remark. It’s not enlightenment that you gain, but rather, understanding of their situation and how it affects every single day of their lives. If you would have given a damn for those homosexual friends of yours then you would have tried to support them.

I will never know what it's like to "come out" to your friends, but I suspect that in a way it's similar to professing Christian beliefs on a Diablo forum.

I didn’t know that you could lose the support and love of all your friends and family members by professing Christian beliefs in the Lurker Lounge. That’s certainly something new for me. Please, don’t ever dare to compare what you are doing here with coming out again. You obviously don’t understand the implications that coming out has in your life.

Just based on the little information in your post, there seems to be a lot more to your life than the endless pursuit of sex. So why then would you equate my condemnation of your sexual activity with being a condemnation of your existance? In my last reply to Shadow I went to great lengths to make that distinction.

Of course there is more to my life than endless pursuit of sex. But let’s face it; sexuality is a very important part of anybody. Even if you are Christian (and I am), sexuality still plays a very important role in your life. And it doesn’t matter how you look at it, sexuality is an integral part of any successful relationship. When you do get married you will be humping your wife every single night for at least a month after you get married, and don’t tell me I am wrong in saying that because you know it’s true.

Now, since you have been defending the holy institution that is marriage with such a passion, then I can deduce that for you, marriage would be a very important part of your life, right? When you do get married, your wife is going to be everything (or pretty close to everything) for you. What would be your reaction if someone told you that such a very important and defining part of your life is morally wrong? Now, what would it be if more than half the people you meet, including your family and friends, tell you that it’s morally wrong? Of course you would get upset.

Obviously, the same happens to me when you express your disapproval of my sexual activity. I get upset, because when I do get “married” my husband (that sounded weird) is going to be an integral part of my life. If you tell a man that the most important part of his life is morally wrong, you are basically telling him that his life is morally wrong.

If your attitude about marriage is really this casual, you don't deserve the right to get married even if you were "straight". This is about a sacred bond, a lifelong commitment to a loving relationship, a joining of families and the foundation of a new one.

You obviously missed this important part of my next paragraph, or choose to miss it. Anyway, here it is again for you to read:

But don’t get me wrong, I’m not that selfish. I firmly believe that the main purpose of a marriage or any kind of union is full commitment between the two persons that are involved in it, be it a man and a woman, two men or two women. For me, nothing in this life can beat the satisfaction of giving everything you can to the one you love.

As you can see, I can happily fulfill all your requirements for marriage except the last one, because that one is simply out of my hands. Nothing I can do will ever allow me to form a natural family, and believe me, I regret that.

[Occhidiangela]

Maybe "coming out" offends the hell out of some people. Maybe they don't want to know what other people do, sexually, in their bedrooms. You don't share your sexual habits with us here, nor do most, so thank you all for your discretion. There is at least a level of good taste generally held to here.

Maybe the "out someone else" movement of a few years back was extremely intrusive. It sure stepped on the discretion some gay folks chose to exercise, for their own reasons.

I suspected that any number of losers wanted to out successful people so that they could bask in reflected glory, but I could be wrong about that. With so many thousands involved, the motivations were doubtless personal and varied.

Me, I am long past raising an eyebrow over who is in and who is out. Stay in the closet, come out, what ever rows your boat.

As for Ashkael: When you choose to discuss where you are at with your parents, be prepared to be surprised, to run into emotional angst, to even run into unexpected lumps in your life.

It ain't all about you.

It is about your relationship with your mom and dad both of whom are real people. That's important stuff, and not to be taken lightly. When and if you ever raise children in the future, you will understand better their PoV. You will also understand the word "sacrifice."

Only you will know when the time and setting is right. Best of luck to you when that day comes. I hope you are pleasantly surprised.

[Nystul]

Similar? Maybe, in that you expose yourself to ridicule. But a Diablo forum is not where you live. It is a small community that is only peripheral to your 'real life'. It is part of where you play, not where you live.


My comment was something of a "ha ha, only serious" nature, and obviously missed the mark. I think you've been around here long enough to see people who have washed out on Diablo and had to leave the community in the hopes of rebuilding a life. Priorities vary from day to day, and week to week. Sometimes The Game is life, and everything else is diversion. This is year #7 for me here, and getting baited into a thread like this takes a big toll on both of my lives: the gaming one, and whatever it leaves in its wake.

With that said, and the realization that I have long since passed the point of clarifying my stance and entered the realm of beating dead horses, I think I will bid this thread adieu and look for a thread on gaming or other trivial forms of recreation. Those are the important things in This Life, after all. It's a sad day when a political or religious discussion here becomes more controversial than a debate on twinking or grief play.

[Count Duckula]

It's really interesting to see all of you arguing about homosexual marriages, some of you in favor and some of you against it. However, I bet none of you know from firsthand experience what is like to be homosexual.

*raises hand*

I posted, and said something, and other than one lone voice, everyone else went back to Nystul-bashing. (Well, not Nystul. Just everything Nystul said.)

Is it morally wrong for President Bush to try to screw the lives of millions of homosexuals who love each other and would like to marry to get some extra benefits under the law? Is it morally wrong to screw the life of people who are ALREADY screwed since birth and have to deal with a constant stream of crap throughout their lives?

I think it's morally wrong for ANY minority to play the sympathy card. "Everybody hates us for what we are, now give us compensation." It's not true. However, the way society works, that's the adopted stance.

One thing that always amuses me is how people talk about homosexuality as if it were some kind of disease or plague. The truth is I never choose to be homosexual, much in the same way you did not choose to be straight.

It's not even a decision. You hear of people waffling between gay and straight like those are the only two choices.

I've never heard it called a disease that often. (Because, you know, that would be mean. Uh-huh. Of course.) Rather, I've heard from people who think homosexuality can be cured if the right person of opposite gender comes along, or if you take the right drugs, etc.

At my short age of 20, I think I’ve dealt with much more depressions than most of you.

*raises beer bottle* Turned 21 two days ago.

And I don't think you have. I could rattle off my own psychoses, but I doubt anybody would want to listen. You don't corner the sympathy market because you're gay. Stop acting like it.

You see, one of the biggest problems a homosexual faces is coming out.

There are two types of "coming out." One is to yourself, and one is to the rest of the world. The former is easier than the latter. Sometimes by a lot.

I attend an all-female university. If you read this board, you should know that by now. :P I've been dating Kasreyn for about a year now. I met him through the DSF and the LL. If you don't know that by now, well, now you do. :P My father said that he'd be more accepting of a relationship between me and another Hollins student (read: girl) than having a long-distance relationship with Kas. Then again, nobody beyond my immediate family and circle of friends knows about my girlfriends. Then again, why do they need to?

Personally, I can't stand gay people making it a point that they're gay. To me, it's shuffling the sympathy cards and dealing a hand. You wouldn't introduce your Black/Hispanic/Asian girl/boyfriend as such at a party. So why would you introduce your sig other as your gay/lesbian sig other? Just making out by the punch bowl tells the crowd that you're dating him/her. Or that you just like kissing people at parties. :P

I almost committed suicide when I found out that I was homosexual.

I'm curious to know why. You don't have to post it or even tell me if you don't want to. Was it the fear of ostracization by friends and family? Did you feel wrong, like you were going against everything you ever knew or had been taught? Or a combination?

However, despite all of this, the biggest problem a homosexual faces is the realization that you will never, ever be able to have children and raise them in a “natural” environment...You can say that there are ways to get around this, like adoption or surrogate mothering. However, I don’t believe in adoption and the very idea of having an unknown woman lend me her belly to carry a child she doesn’t want just for money makes me sick.

A story.

The head of the women's studies department and her partner wanted to adopt a child from overseas and provide the child with a good, loving home. Most places will not allow same-sex couples to adopt; however, some will allow single parents to adopt a child. They went with this plan, and the partner would be the child's legal guardian instead of co-parent. Word got leaked to the adoption agency about their work-around (probably from the fanatical Christian ex-campus registrar, but that's another can of worms entirely), and the adoption was cancelled. They're heartbroken. But, a young woman in the Roanoke Valley (doesn't even go to this school, so don't think it's me :ph34r:) thought about getting an abortion due to an unplanned pregnancy, heard their story, and decided to have her baby girl so the couple could become the kid's legal guardians.

There are ways to get around the system to please everyone. Just don't be so short-sighted that you can't see them. (But I'm a strong believer in adoption. There's my bias. ^_^)

Besides all of this, there are the usual gay-bashing comments that pop up in almost every single conversation with your straight friends that don’t know about your sexual orientation.

Cultural brainwashing. You can either look past it, or not put up with it.

And then, there’s the big mess with religion. Every time I listen or read about someone saying that God hates homosexuals, I just think about my 'good' life and come to the conclusion that there's no way God can hate me. Remember what I said above? That I didn’t choose to be homosexual? I just keep wondering how God can hate someone for something he didn’t choose to be in the first place.

I honestly think God doesn't care, in the same way that he's not going to keep me off his right hand in Heaven because I eat bacon. Look at Falwell and Robertson; you really think God loves them after all the crap they preach?!

However, nowadays marriage isn’t about a holy institution anymore, it’s more about the rights and benefits you get for being legally married. And you know what? I want my slice of the cake too.

I posted in this thread about federally mandated civil unions. If people actually gave a damn, I think it'd actually work.

I sometimes find ironic that the very same people that like to boast about America being the land of the free are the same ones that oppose homosexual marriages with great passion. That’s why the outcome of all this is very important to me, because as someone already said, America is the big fish in the pond. Whatever they do, the rest of the fishes are watching. And usually some of the smaller fishes follow on the footsteps of the big fish and try to imitate what the big fish is doing. I really hope this situation gets settled.

Meh. The vocal Americans don't speak for all this country. And I believe Canada has legal gay marriages. Anyone from the Great White North want to confirm this?

(*reels DeeBye back to the thread*) I've been beer-tasting. Canadian beer is superior to American beer. But they all taste weird.

And Angel is right. It's easier to post when drinking! :D

[whyBish]

Here's a generalization that is  correct:

Parents love their children, and will support them no matter what.

Maybe in Disneyland.

Like I said, it's a generalization.

Yup, and you also said that yours was correct and his was not... not that I care :P

--Edit
Wow, what a rectangular post

[LochnarITB]

Here's a generalization that is  correct:

Parents love their children, and will support them no matter what.

Maybe in Disneyland.

Like I said, it's a generalization.

Yup, and you also said that yours was correct and his was not... not that I care :P

--Edit
Wow, what a rectangular post

How deep will the forum quote? Kind of like the painting of the painter painting the painter painting the painter painting....

[DeeBye]

Here's a generalization that is  correct:

Parents love their children, and will support them no matter what.

Maybe in Disneyland.

Like I said, it's a generalization.

Yup, and you also said that yours was correct and his was not... not that I care :P

--Edit
Wow, what a rectangular post

I guess I should have said "mostly correct". Parents that don't love their child and treat them like crap are in the extreme minority. They are statistically insignificant. You only hear about them a lot because it makes for great media airplay. The 99.9999.....% of normal parents that love their children never make the airwaves because that's just boring news.

[Baajikiil]

How deep will the forum quote? Kind of like the painting of the painter painting the painter painting the painter painting....

Try checking some of the AB archived threads. There are a few somewhere in which they attempted(and succeeded) in breaking down the forum by repeated quotes. After a while it becomes a certain form of art, with pyramids and rectangles all over the place.

EDIT: Those threads might have disappeared, I just took a quick look and couldn't find them. Suffice to say, it took alot of quoting to break down the board though. Say, a few pages worth of ridiculously large posts, and then the next page's borders/outlines/colors/ect were messed up.

[ShadowHM]

As requested, the current status of gay marriage in Canada:

I did the cut'n'paste thing because I am too lazy to type it all up and this summary is, I believe, accurate.

In the 1990s and early 2000s, the provincial governments of Alberta, British Columbia, Nova Scotia, Ontario and Quebec granted restricted rights to gays and lesbians, that were nearly equivalent to those enjoyed by heterosexual common-law couples.

On 2003-JUN-10, the definition of marriage in Ontario was widened by the courts so that same-sex couples were allowed to obtain marriage licenses and register their marriages for the first time.

On 2003-JUL-8, the province of British Columbia followed suit.

The deputy Prime Minister, John Manley, commented to the media on 2003-AUG-21 that Quebec will soon start to register same sex marriages. If this happens, then same sex marriage will be available to 80% of Canada's gay and lesbian population without them having to leave their province of residency.

The federal government submitted draft legislation to the Supreme Court of Canada in 2003-JUL, which would redefine marriage to include same-sex couples. The Court is expected to rule on the constitutionality of the proposed laws in 2004.

A new prime-minister assumed office in mid 2003-DEC. He has decided to explore all of the possible options that are both constitutional and capable of ensuring full benefits for gays and lesbians. The government is expected to ask the Supreme Court whether a Vermont-style civil union structure is constitutional.

Same-sex adult couples are expected to be able to obtain full marital privileges anywhere in Canada by 2004-JUL.

[Vandiablo]

Kind of like the painting of the painter painting the painter painting the painter painting....

Like this?

[DeeBye]

Like this?

That makes my head hurt. I need to lie down now.

[LochnarITB]

Like this?

Must do evil's bidding.... Must do evil's bidding....

That is wild! I do not want to stare at that very long. :lol:

[NiteFox]

Must do evil's bidding.... Must do evil's bidding....

Go get me a beer and some peanuts.

Hmm. The people I could brainwash with that Flash...

[Occhidiangela]

I almost got dizzy enough to barf. :)

[Ashkael]

Hiya :)

First of all, thank you for destroying my argument with that reply ;). I completely agree with you when you say that just because you are a minority, you don't have the right to play the sympathy card. I can assure you that that wasn't my intention when I wrote my post. What I was trying to accomplish was, as I stated at the beginning of my post, to try to give people an idea of what life is like for a homosexual. I guess you would agree with me when I say that we have to deal with a lot of crap that gets thrown our way. Straight people don't have to deal with this kind of crap. That's why it pisses me off when straight people bash homosexuals and make statements about us, because they don’t really know how things work out at the other side of the fence. By writing about this stuff, I was trying to remove that fence and give people some insight on how things really work. I can understand that it may have struck you as if I was trying to play the sympathy card.

Cultural brainwashing. You can either look past it, or not put up with it.

Believe me, I am waaay past the stage where those kinds of comments struck a chord in me. I couldn’t care less about other people’s opinion about homosexuality. Heck, I hang around with some “friends” from Latinamerica in College that are openly homophobic. Obviously, they don’t know I am homosexual, and they don’t have to know either. This leads me to your next comment:

Personally, I can't stand gay people making it a point that they're gay. To me, it's shuffling the sympathy cards and dealing a hand. You wouldn't introduce your Black/Hispanic/Asian girl/boyfriend as such at a party. So why would you introduce your sig other as your gay/lesbian sig other? Just making out by the punch bowl tells the crowd that you're dating him/her. Or that you just like kissing people at parties.

I never tell people I am homosexual. Simply put, there’s no reason for them to know. However, you cannot live under a rock all your life and keep pretending that you are something else. You cannot be acting like you fancy the opposite gender all day long because then, how on earth are you going to find a partner? At some point in life you have to tell some people. And that’s where your real friends step in. I assume that you have at least 1 or 2 friends who are very close to you, and you have enough trust in them to tell them about your sexual orientation. Those friends will offer you a very small window through which you can breathe and be yourself. Those friends will be the ones that won’t raise an eyebrow when you are at a bar with them and you suddenly feel the need to start hitting on a gay-looking guy. I suppose you have such friends, and I also suppose that just like me, when you are hanging around with them you feel as if a giant weight had been lifted from your back. And by the way, I too cannot stand gay people that make a point that they’re gay ;).

I'm curious to know why. You don't have to post it or even tell me if you don't want to. Was it the fear of ostracization by friends and family? Did you feel wrong, like you were going against everything you ever knew or had been taught? Or a combination?

A combination of both, but you need more background to understand why. I’ll explain it more clearly in a PM.

[Vandiablo]

Side Bar question:

...when you are at a bar with them and you suddenly feel the need to start hitting on a gay-looking guy.

So, what constitutes "gay-looking"?

I can't help but feel that if a straight person had used "gay-looking" you (or any gay person) would have found it objectionable.

Or is it that kind of situation where those in the group can say it, but those outside aren't allowed to say it? (Like the N word, the B word, or the F word.)

-V

The "F" word: Fat.

[DeeBye]

So, what constitutes "gay-looking"?

[Ashkael]

I wouldn't have made an issue out of it. As I said in my previous post, I don't care about that kind of stuff. Plus, it would be really stupid to make an issue out of something like that.

So, what constitutes "gay-looking"?

Well, if you at least watch TV, then you have your answer (albeit a very stereotypical (SP?) one!).

Or is it that kind of situation where those in the group can say it, but those outside aren't allowed to say it? (Like the N word, the B word, or the F word.)

No, it's not like that. Just saying that someone looks "gay" is not gay-bashing. You know, "gay" is a very versatile word, just like the f-word, but not as versatile :lol:. And personally, I have yet to know a single gay person that gets offended when someone says "gay-looking". However, now I feel that I shouldn't have used that term in my reply. Let's just say that when you are gay, you have some sort of "gaydar" and you sometimes can figure out who is gay and who isn't. And before someone suggests this, even though gay people are usually very supportive of each other, it's not like they tend to form a closed group or clan, leaving straight people outside. And no, there's no discrimination against people who are not gay.