New Hardcore Start

[arrunique]

I finally started playing hardcore after several years of softcore and I must say it is more "thrilling" but I certainly wouldn't recommend it to anyone who doesn't know the game pretty well.

I would like to discuss the best way to amass Diablo wealth when starting from nothing. My goal is to build up my supply of gear and trade goods so that I can play some of the more gear dependent builds. Because I'm starting with nothing that rules out any build that relies on eq for damage or leech.

First builds I'm considering:

Lightning Sorc: Pros - Charged bolt will work through normal and nightmare. Cons - Charged is almost a melee skill, mana potion dependent
Fire Sorc: Pros - Leaf Staff. Cons: Not Hell Viable
Cold Sorc: Blizzard requires heavy synergies to be useful, orb isnt available till 30 making those first 30 few levels painful. Well synergized blizzard shreds meph for easy runs.
Hybrid Cold/Fire Sorc (orb/fball). Pros: Levels well, hell viable Cons: No "artillery" skill makes boss runs dangerous.
Summon Necro: Pros - Skillers easy to find. Very safe build. Cons - Killing speed is haphazard, slow to do mf runs
Bone Necro: Pros - White Wand. Skills scale very well. Hell viable. Cons - Mana potion dependent
Poison Necro: Pros - White Wand. PNova has wide area. Cons - Not Hell Viable
Trap Assassin: Never played, assume it would be very safe since you would scout with traps
Elemental Druid: Damage seems haphazard, Wind seems to need to get very close to targets
Hammerdin: Refuse to play, hammer is a broken unbalanced skill

Melee or archer builds can survive with thrift store gear however I think they would move too slow and be too party dependant for bosses to be starter classes.

I originally started a bone necro but switched to fire sorc when I found a +3 fball +2 warmth staff with 2 sockets. My fire sorc made it to 28 and was doing very well in normal when I stupidly went afk and came back dead. I restarted a hybrid sorc who is currently level 22 and will hopefully make it through nightmare to do tunnel and pit runs.

The char I am finding gear for is a conviction zeal paladin who I'm afraid won't survive to get conviction without a little assistance. I'll make a new thread with gear suggestions in a little while, I would like to focus this discussion on just the pros and cons of starting with various builds.

Cheers!

[jhartelt]

a holy shock paladin is not item dependent at all. +skills are nice, of course, but not neccessary till act3 lower kurast, where I lost mine against stormtree. I just ran around mobs till the aura killed them. the rebuild is lvl48, the aura doing 1-700 lightning damage. some bosses might need to be meleed, though, because ~350 damage every 2 seconds are not enough to kill them. if at all possible, I let the holy freeze merc do the melee. you could go for max block of course and do it yourself with the 1-4k lightning damage on melee attacks at that level.

one of the best items for this char IMO is the holy thunder runeword. if you manage to find a 4s sceptre with holy shock skills already in it, take a minute to celebrate :)

I do not know if this char will be hell viable in the way that i play it (the aura making the kills). with max block and played as a melee char, it may be doable.

pro:all item positions are free. in my case for mf gear, which I either came across or gambled for (PTopazes assemble themselves once you hit nm ;) )
cons: holy shock is a lvl24 skill; probably not hell viable

EDIT: typo

[Yogi_Baar]

I cannae say I know the game well (haven't been to hell yet), but I've had an easy time with a HC non-twinked BF assassin.

Pros (at least some of them):
- easy to equip (Malice is cheap, Angelic set is relatively easy to find, Cleglaw's works wonders too)
- reaching clvl 18 for BF is easy as well, since you don't have AR problems and have BoS and Fade at your disposal
- High level Shadow Master is almost invincible in nightmare (at least till act IV, can't speak for later acts)
- Fade takes care of a lot of resistances, BF eliminates the need for IAS, so you can wear a lot of MF gear
- Once you get Shadow Master you can generally stay out of harm's way, and a cold act III merc can help with that even more

Cons: can't think of any ATM.

I don't consider this a trapper build that you've already mentioned since my character has all but 4 points (BF and prereqs) in the Shadow tree.

[Obi2Kenobi]

...played as a melee char, it may be doable.

Well, if you don't want to get mobbed, you could always be a Shock Ranger (shoot them with arrows. A cracked short bow should work [to an extent]).

[Taem]

I would like to discuss the best way to amass Diablo wealth when starting from nothing.

Is this with or without friends in Hardcore? Either way, your best bet is to level up quickly then do magic find "runs" on a specific boss. If you have friends already in hardcore, you could get an Enchant to plow through the first 25 levels and leech on some baal runs then when your ready, start magic finding. I personally like the game just the way it is and would rather play it slowly level by level than rush and do baal runs.

My goal is to build up my supply of gear and trade goods so that I can play some of the more gear dependent builds. Because I'm starting with nothing that rules out any build that relies on eq for damage or leech.

Without a doubt you need a sorceress, but I would like to mention that a Summoner necromancer is the SAFEST in hardcore and can easily solo hell mode difficulty. If you go with the sorceress, I'd suggest going with the cold tree and a single point in static. What I did was max. Orb + Synergy, Cold Mastery, Mana Shield + Synergy and lots of Damage turns into mana (I used Nightsmoke). I was pretty much invincible for MF'ing. I made the mistake of getting a Barbarian merc and he died every game. While it may sound opposing to the sorceress, I found the best merc for survival and damage is either the Act 2 Might merc or the Act 1 Fire Arrow (helps to kill the cold immunes).

Of note, the funnest I've played yet has got to be the Enchantress bar none, but I would NOT recommend for starting Hardcore.

[arrunique]

Is this with or without friends in Hardcore?

Alas the only person I can rely on is myself so this is a completely clean, untwinked start.

Orb + Synergy, Cold Mastery, Mana Shield + Synergy

Would that still work without a lot of points in energy? Also does the telekinesis synergy make eshield that much better? I had a sorc in softcore with 1 point in ES and 1 in TK and usually instead of just dying she died with an empty mana ball. Since I don't have any gear to start with I can't rely on using the powerful Nightsmoke. Would it still work without damage to mana gear?

I personally like the game just the way it is and would rather play it slowly level by level than rush and do baal runs.

I try not to rush (I'm usually the guy starting the "Duriel Have Staff" game) but playing a build that needs gear to be effective and not having at least a good poor mans suit is just painful. Some builds, like the conviction zealot I mentioned, are about 100 times more effective with gear than without. And some builds, like your orb sorc, have a slow time making it to 30 because they rely on top end skills for damage and lower skills for support.

The shockadin was a good idea that I hadn't thought of for starting build. It is melee guy that can even overcome iron maiden because he can just remove his weapon be almost as effective punching.

[Taem]

Arrunique, what realm are you on? I may have some low-level gear (such as extra Death's Sets) lying around you can have. It would be a nice boost to get you started if your interested and on the same Realm I'm on; to clarify, I'm on USWEST Hardcore.

[Taem]

Would that still work without a lot of points in energy? Also does the telekinesis synergy make eshield that much better? I had a sorc in softcore with 1 point in ES and 1 in TK and usually instead of just dying she died with an empty mana ball. Since I don't have any gear to start with I can't rely on using the powerful Nightsmoke. Would it still work without damage to mana gear?

Well, there was an enchantress guide that spoke against it, as well as numerous posts, but I decided against those words of "wisdom" and found it did exceptonally well! As it stands, there is a 2:1 ratio of mana spent per damage absorbed, so with 200% damage goes to mana, you could offset this amount. Every point into telekinesis reduces this ratio equivilant by 6.25% At level 16 telekinesis, the damage ratio is 1:1, and at level 20 its 3:4 . I guess it comes down to the items your willing to wear as opposed to the skill points your willing to spend.

At level 20, mana shield absorbs 75% of all damage taken.

Other than Naj's armor and Lanceguard, the rest of this stuff is pretty easy to get. Once you get Telekinesis to 16, there is no reason to have more than 100% damage goes to mana.

Damge Goes To Mana:
Howltusk 35%
Nightsmoke 50%
Angelic amulet 20%
Naj's Armor 45%
Lanceguard 15%
Magical Orb 12%
ITH Rune (armor, helmet, shield) 15%
TOTAL: 222%

Personally, I went with a "Lore" helmet until I found a Peasant Crown + ITH, Nightsmoke belt, I was using Angelic amulet until I found one with +skills (2)and resists, Naj's armor + ITH, Lidless Wall + ITH, and a magical orb (2) with +skills and I think it may of had +10% damage goes to mana. This gave me 15+50+45+15+15+10? = 150% damage goes to mana. I also had +7 skills from these items. Eventually, I want to upgrade to an Oculus and a Shako, so I can assume I'll loose 10% for 140% damage goes to mana. This means I only need 10 points into Telekinesis (Base 200% (-6.25 x 10) = 137.5%) to have a 1:1 ratio of damage to mana and have an 82% absorb from Mana Shield. If I really went all out and got a shako, oculus, and 10 lightening skill charms, I would have 94% absorb.

The problem people are having with Mana Shield, from what I understand, is that it is not taking resists into factor before energy shield absorb, thus elemental damage tends to empty the mana ball instantly.

I had a total of 60 Strength and added a few +strength charms for 80 strength which was just enough to equip everything I needed, zero points invested into dexterity, and the rest into Vitality and Energy. With the Frostburns and Silkweave my friend loaned me, I basically had (the way I see it) an extra 2,000 HP from my mana at level 80, atop my almost 1,000 HP. This was more than enough for me to justify taking up Energy Shield.

[arrunique]

Arrunique, what realm are you on?

I am on US East with the account of HC_Chode. All my chars start RMC_ . That is for the Robotic Monkey Coalition, the clan I will start if I'm ever less lazy.

[Obi2Kenobi]

This means I only need 10 points into Telekinesis (Base 200% (-6.25 x 10) = 137.5%) to have a 1:1 ratio of damage to mana

Nope. Synergies do not gain any benefit from skill points. Not sure about the wolf/bear synergy, as it was around pre-1.10.

Also, since vulpine occurs, if I am correct, after energy shield, 100% damage taken goes to mana wouldn't be enough at 1:1. Lets assume 75% energy shield, at a 1:1 ratio, 100 damage, and 100% damage taken goes to mana. You lose 25 life and 75 mana. You then gain 25 mana back from that life you lost, giving -25 life and -50 mana. So, what you really need at 75% mana shield is 300% damage taken goes to mana if you want to lose nothing. At a 3:4 mana to life ratio, using all the other stats the same, you lose 25 life and 61.5 mana. 25 mana is refunded, giving a grand total of -25 life and -36.5 mana. You'd need 256% damage taken goes to mana to end up with no mana loss.

[Taem]

EDIT - I couldn't find the EXACT information on the Basin but I did find this:

http://www.zathras.net/~abernat/vv/EnergyShield.html

I also found this for 1.1:

http://www.hut.fi/~tgustafs/damagereduction.html

4.2 Special effects
There are some special effects that take place before damage resolution: Thorns, Iron Maiden, Spirit of the Barbs, and Vulpine items (X% Damage Goes To Mana). They all use the physical damage after all damage modification effects, i.e. Physical Damage Taken, as their source damage. For example, Vulpine items add X / 100 x Physical Damage Taken mana to the defender's mana pool in the damage resolution.

I've come to the conclusion that 'Damage Goes To Mana' happens on the total damage dealt, not the damage recieved, thus Vulpine items would greatly help negate/eliminate mana costs.

-ORIGINAL-
Are you sure damage goes to mana is after the absorb from the Mana Shield and not before? If it's after, then yes, it would only give you mana from the damage your life took, but I was under the impression it was from the total damage you took, regardless of how much mana shield absorbed.

[Taem]

Nope. Synergies do not gain any benefit from skill points. Not sure about the wolf/bear synergy, as it was around pre-1.10.

Eh? I'm not sure I know what you mean. Without any points into Tekekinesis, every point of damage you absorb costs two mana, thus if you had 75% damage reduction and took 100 damage, you would absorb 75 points of damage and that would cost you 150 mana. With ten points into Telekinesis, that would make the ratio 6.25 x 10 = 62.5% less effective, so instead of a 200% increase, it would only be 200 - 62.5 = 137.5%, or 1.375 mana per 1 damage. It makes sense to me that 140% damage goes to mana would off set this, no?

Perhaps you were reffering to the mana shield part where I said if I decked myself out I would have 94% absorb, and this is true and has nothing to do with the synergy.

So, I don't really understand what your trying to say :D .

[Obi2Kenobi]

Nope. Synergies do not gain any benefit from skill points. Not sure about the wolf/bear synergy, as it was around pre-1.10.

Um... I must have been misinterpereting what you said about that 1:1 ratio... I didn't realize you were adding in the Damage to Mana in that. Unless I am still misunderstanding you... :blink:

But about that whole when does Vulpine occur, I may be wrong. I haven't gotten around to testing it, yet.