So, just what are we talking about?

[Occhidiangela]

I've been to Maine
I've been to Spain
I've been to Spokane
I've been 'round the world three times
Seen two county fairs and a goat f**k
I've seen everything but the wind
Been everywhere but the electric chair
I've even seen a blind lesbian do a back flip into a pool of creamed corn
And have even seen a bear sh** in the woods (Yes, I was using binoculars!)
But I aint nevah
Seen nuthin'
Like the cornfusion about "Christians."

Makes sense, there are only about 2000 flavors.

On boards and in discussions all over my land, there is great gnashing of teeth and rending of garments about

Christians.

The appelation is almost used the way nigger, dago, mick, or spic once were, as a perjorative epithet. That pisses me off, mightily. I know too many good and wonderful Christians to accept that there is any validity to the vitriol that "they" are subject to in far too many minds.

Lately, I have gotten rather tired of all that crap. And what kills me is

I am not, nor have I ever been, a card carrying Christian.

So, why defend Christians? I can't. Why speak on their behalf? Because most Christians I have ever met, with a few egregious exceptions, are folks I want as my neighbors. Folks I love to be around. Folks who are worthy of my respect.

So what does it all boil down to?

(No, this is not the Tanqueray talking, this is me, from the heart, taking a risk on a very delicate topic, religion. All you Muslims, your message is at the end.)

Why the post? I saw two dear friends of mine, one a Catholic and one a Baptist, today, as we sucked a few cold ones down after a rigorous 18 holes (I putted like I had Cerebral Palsey and was buying) damned near come to blows over

The Passion of the Christ

A film all three of us had seen within the past few weeks. My comments on that product of the film industry are elsewhere on thie forum. My Baptist friend was the one who took the position, to my utter disbelief and dismay, that "The Passion" was tatamount to a documentary. My Catholic friend saw it more as I did, as an interesting way that one man told the same old story in the current Hollywood style: High Ketchup Count. And the two of them sat there in the 19th hole, eyes starting to harden and glisten, as they disagreed on point after point. I was appalled. *DOH* Stupid, Stupid, Rogue, for having brought it up.

It took what little diplomatic skill I have to slowly get us off the topic and to realize that what started as a "whattya think" struck a hell of a nerve.

Christians: "can't live with them, can't shoot them," but I want them as my neighbors.

What does it all boil down to?

The Golden Rule
The Ten Commandments (some better than others)
Some very good advice on a simple, clear, and very effective way to deal with the massive uncertainty of everyday life
A belief that there is something bigger than ourselves
An acceptance that "it is not all about you" with the ironic complementary concept that "you have a special relationship" with The Creator.

and

and this is a big and

See Robin Hobb's Farseer books for a neato look at this

Sacrifice.

Giving of yourself, even if it hurts a bit, to make the world, or just your neighbor's life, a bit better, today, with such means as are wwithin your power.

So, what's with all the rest of this stuff?

Form/substance > 1. Ritual > Word.

My daughter's voice teacher is my favorite kind of Christian. "Whenever two or more of you will gather in His name . . .' that's her path. Her Faith is an impressive and powerful thing to see, to witness, and to experience on a personal basis. It is a, no kidding, good thing. And she wears it as naturally as her own hair.

I did a year or so of Bible study with some "born again Christians" back in the 70's, enough to learn that the Word and the Ritual and All That Other Baggage too often get confused.

Last month, I had to write to a memeber of Congress regarding the alleged unfair treatment of a Messianic Jew. (That is a brand of Christian, I found out thanks to the work involved.)

All I can really say is

There are those who walk the walk, and those who talk the talk, and those who stumble and fall in a puddle of mud. (Muddy Rogue here, in truth.) In my own life, I can honestly say that my own attraction to the Word has been due to my interaction from those who simply walked the walk as best they could. Incredible people. Paragons of good example. (Those of you with children will understand, to quote BIll Cosby.)

And then I see the vitriol leveled at these good people. It makes no sense to me.

Oh, and for the Allah gang: Plaigerism. The Koran is more boring a read than the Bible. How's that for infamy?

Cheers.

Rogue who is probably gonna burn in Hell-- if there is such a place.

[whereagles]

All humans have religiousity (or spirituality). It's essential; a natural way to overcome the fear of death. You can't get rid of it. Even if one doesn't believe in a deity, one always hope that it exists. As for religions... well that's a cultural thing.

Anyway.. I think my point is you shouldn't take what religious people say too personally.

[WarLocke]

I got roped into seeing this movie tomorrow (well, today now).

I'm not very religious at all, and I'll have to sit around afterwards and listen to my father and grandfather debate it.

I've been leery of it ever since the Diane Sawyer interview where Gibson basically said the movie was God's work being done through him... :(

[Nystul]

I've been leery of it ever since the Diane Sawyer interview where Gibson basically said the movie was God's work being done through him...

Personally, I'd be a bit leery about any portrayal of a Biblical story if the artist didn't feel he was doing God's work. It would make me wonder just what his angle is, and why he need to drag the Bible along with whatever his agenda may happen to be.

But in any case, enjoy the movie! :lol: And find some way to sneak away when the debating starts afterwards.

[LiquidDamage]

I've been to Maine
I've been to Spain
I've been to Spokane

If you'd actually been to Spokane, you would know that the above doesn't rhyme. ;)

[cheezz]

It would make me wonder just what his angle is, and why he need to drag the Bible along with whatever his agenda may happen to be.

I think that since most of the Christians I know don't go to the movies on a regular basis, Mel is attempting one of two things. He may be trying to witness to the secular movie masses, or he may be trying to increase ticket sales by making a movie that Christians will want to see as well as secular audiences. No matter what his motives are, I still think he is either banking on his name, his faith, or both.

[Doc]

You know, don't take this as an insult, but you would make a GOOD Christian.

The big problem these days is figuring out what a Christian is. So many people call themselves by that label. Mormons, Jehovah's Witlessess, Catholics, Snake Handlers, etc etc etc. And that I think is the problem.

Religion is the problem. I loathe religion. I my self have no religion. The Bible warns us not to have religion. Jesus came to abolish the Mosiac Law. Religion, in the very root of the word, means man reaching up for God. Jesus bridged the gap and allowed God to reach down to us. The Ten Commandments, while ten very good rules to live by, no longer exist. None of the Mosiac Law exists. It was impossible for man to live by. Any man or congregation that lives by the Law will die by the Law. Catholics, live by the Law. As do so many others. They will be judged by the very standards they hold themselves to and fall accordingly. Grace is the one simple bone of contention that so many fail to live by or see. Jesus left one and only one last commandment. Love one another.

Grace is the one thing that has drove a wedge in the Church in the past 2000 years. Man it seems, would rather live under impossible conditions. Baptisms, communions, collection plates, all of it useless. Especially collection plates. Tithing was part of the Law. Any church passing around a collection plate now should be fled from. During the Age of Grace, it is the Minister's responsibility to work to cover the expenses for his flock. Look at Paul, he worked as a tent maker. Up till the day he died, Paul made all of his own money for his Ministry. It kept him honest.

Faith should be a simple thing. I believe. Therefore, I am. It is a personal private relationship, not a religion or gathering of miserable souls. It should not be you dragging your ass down to church each Sunday getting bored, falling asleep, and wishing you where at home watching the ball game. If that's how it is for you, then Christ died in vain. The whole purpose of Jesus' death was to give us the freedon to go to God at any time with out the need for Rabbi or Pastor. Sure, it's nice to have those folks around for some things. Tough questions, spiritual guidence on some issues, marriages perhaps. But it's a lot more fun to gather together for fellowship in a back yard, having a BBQ, shooting the breeze about life and drinking cold frosty beer. Jesus showed us with the Last Supper that worship and fellowship begins at home. All of the first Church gathered in homes, then catacombs, graveyards, and places of hiding as the Church Members became outlaws. It went sour shortly after that, as leaders and temple guildmasters realized that if this dreadful idea of people worshipping on their own and not dropping coin into the temple coffers, many men used to free and easy living might have to actually go out and work. So a bunch of yahoos got together and created the foundations to the Modern Catholic church that exists today with it's strings of pagan worship and idol fixation wove in with the Bible. The "All Things For All People" thing just hasn't worked out. Easter, the coming holiday, based on some old dead God of fertility, created to draw in pagan worshippers. (Do not confuse Passover and Easter.) The worship of statues and saints, from back in the Roman days when men made their own God. Bad news, none of those statues died on a cross for the sins of the world. And they don't weep blood either. It's a couple of microscopic grains of red dye lodged in the cracks around the eye and condensation from dew causes it to shed tears of blood. Mary was a deity unto her self to bring in the Celtic worshipers during the Great Conversion of Europe, giving them a female figure to bask in her glory, to replace their Goddesses and Earth Mother. Before that point, the very idea that a woman was even worth anything was laughable. What's that about necessity being the mother of all invention... Christmas, the Festival of Reaping. In the Bible, in the Gospels, it said that Jesus' birth happened after a decree that the whole world be taxed. Romans taxed the world every year or so around April first. Jesus was born with the lambs, as a Lamb. Not a Reaping Goose.

See where I am going with this? I could bury you in the sheer amount of baggage. See what people carry with them? See why your friends got huffy puffy? I will probably go out and see The Passion later this afternoon. Under much protest. I rented out a whole showing for a Youth Group I sponsor. So I may join them. (But I dunno. All that damned giggling and bouncing about boingy behaviour... gets on my nerves it does. What do teenagers have against sitting still and enjoying quiet contemplation.) Egads I hope I am not in a theatre with a bunch of kids throwing up in their popcorn buckets. Somebody is bound to be a troublemaker and throw JuJuBees or Raisinettes or something. (Might even be me) Please pray for this old Grumplepuss.

Occhi, should you ever change your mind, seeing as how you would make a good Christian, don't let anybody hand you any baggage to carry on your way to the Gate. Just you, your faith, and God is all you will ever need. And for the love of Jesus, never ever join a church full of snake handlers.

[TriggerHappy]

So, other people who abhor religion, yet have faith in god/a devine being/creator/universe/whatever you want to call it, DO exist.

[Quark]

All humans have religiousity (or spirituality). It's essential; a natural way to overcome the fear of death. You can't get rid of it. Even if one doesn't believe in a deity, one always hope that it exists.

Buddy, don't try to pigeonhole me. I've gotten in enough fights over how people treat my Atheism, including on this forum. Don't push my buttons by assuming I'm like you.

[Doc]

Yes TriggerHappy, there is a Sanity Clause

Iconoclast. Taken from the Greek roots, to be a smasher of idols. A destroyer of religions. One who would pee in the holy water. A Sunday Morning Godzilla. Nobody knows from whence he comes or were he goeth, but when he arrives he brings with him the spirit of disaster and distruction. When he departs, he leaves confusion, befuddlement, and terror in his wake.

But I am the last person who should say anything. I have put my own kind to the torch and let them burn black and crispy. I have heartlessly persecuted those that would have called me brother. I have not left behind good things, I have only left barren fruitless ground in my wake, bitterness, I have lain much to waste. I am hated by my own kind. I have said and done things that I now deeply regret, but, they had to be done. Now pardon me while I go and remove the plank from my own eye.

[whereagles]

Buddy, don't try to pigeonhole me.  I've gotten in enough fights over how people treat my Atheism, including on this forum.  Don't push my buttons by assuming I'm like you.

What the hell are you talking about?

[Artega]

God did not create Man; it was Man who created God.

[Occhidiangela]

NT

[Quark]

All humans have religiousity (or spirituality). It's essential; a natural way to overcome the fear of death. You can't get rid of it. Even if one doesn't believe in a deity, one always hope that it exists.

You're wrong, and I'll leave it at that unless you feel like starting a fight.

[Occhidiangela]

It is not actually necessary to get into a fight if you disagree on something, and I am somewhat curious as to what it is that you see as wrong.

Given that you are an Athiest, OK, you'll disagree with the premise that all persons have a religion. Gotcha.

As to a spiritual element in peoples lives, which is not necessarily religion, I'd be interested to understand you objection to that idea.

Having never practiced the Athiest belief (or rather, statement of non belief) I am a bit in the dark as to what caused such an emotional reaction.


Penny for your thoughts?

Occhi

[Quark]

(Some back-info on my reaction is available in Albion Child's thread from a year ago. Occhi himself had posted on my reaction there ;) )

Mainly the chip comes from a life of people telling me I'm flat out wrong without ever listening to mine (or their own) reasoning. Anyway, his post can be split into three false assumptions:

All humans have religiousity (or spirituality).

Nope, sorry. My life has been devoid of this since I was a little kid who didn't know any better. At one point my viewpoints towards religion were formed out of anger towards religion/diety/whatever. Don't be upset with me, I was a young teenager ;) Anyway, as I grew older I slowly developed logical reasoning for everything that I currently believe. Quite frankly, it's a lack of belief. I don't believe in a diety, I don't believe in any special type of spiritual connection, and I don't believe that anything we have/do comes from more than the natural laws. I may be wrong about all this, mind you. But even if I'm wrong, spirituality and religion have no part in my life.

It's essential; a natural way to overcome the fear of death. You can't get rid of it.

First off, this could be misstated. There's three fears of death that are completely seperate. First, there's the fear of what happens in the afterlife. I don't believe there is an afterlife. So when I die, that's it. I cease to be. I don't particularly find that scary. If I don't exist, how could I possibly be sad/hurt/etc? Second, there's the fear of dying. Most of the ways you can die are painful. So I'm naturally scared of them, there's nothing I can do about that. It's the pain that scares me, and nothing religion says can compensate for that. Third, there's the fear of life ending. I don't want my life to end; I'm having too much fun for me to want that. So this again is a fear for me. But, once more, since I think there'll be nothing afterwards, spirituality does not account for this. Religion and Spirituality only give you compensation for 1 of the three fears of death -> and that is the one that I am not afraid of.

Even if one doesn't believe in a deity, one always hope that it exists.

:blink: I'm not sure I can respond to this. It's so preposterous from my perspective that I just don't know what to say. I don't hope that a deity exists; I personally wouldn't care either way (other than the fact that I'd rather be right than wrong). The best reaction I can give to this is that since whereagles is implying what I hope, the burden of proof is completely on him and not me.


As more background into my nature, two years ago my professor for my Common Intellectual Experience class (which I called philosophy-lite if you want an Idea of what it is) was a devout Catholic. More than that, out of all the openly religious people I have met, she seemed to be the most tolerant of my views. A year after I had her as a professor, we were talking randomly and she said "Are you still an atheist? I pray every day for you." It wasn't until she saw the blank expression on my face that she said, "[Quark], I'm just kidding" and watched the relief flow into my face. Take that how you will, but I've been programmed to expect the worst from the devout even if I should know better.

*Edit* Board rant: this is the worst winky i've ever seen.

[LemmingofGlory]

whereagles Even if one doesn't believe in a deity, one always hope that it exists.

Quark I'm not sure I can respond to this. It's so preposterous from my perspective that I just don't know what to say. I don't hope that a deity exists; I personally wouldn't care either way (other than the fact that I'd rather be right than wrong). The best reaction I can give to this is that since whereagles is implying what I hope, the burden of proof is completely on him and not me.

I suspect it bothered you for the same reason it bothered me: it's a logical fallacy.

From A Handbook of Logical Fallacies:
* FANTASY PROJECTION
* CONTEXT IMPOSITION
   An attempt to impose his own intellectual or moral context on another
person by someone who has closed his mind to reality and manufactured a
fantasy, then expects (or if he is a tyrant, demands) others to share it and
help him sustain it. He ignores the objective realities of the situation,
concentrating instead on subjective perceptions that are false. (See the
definition of Social Metaphysics in the DICT file.)
   "If you were terminally ill, you too would advocate life preservation."
   "There are no atheists in foxholes." 
   I have not been to war and do not presume to judge the mental lifeboats
sought by terrified men in the face of incomprehensible horrors. Subject to
sufficient stress, the human mind can be tortured into many horrible shapes.
On the other hand, while cringing in the foxhole the sincere atheist should
realize fully that he does not believe in God: What sort of bloody-minded
deity would let the creatures he created perpetrate a situation like his?
   Imposition of the Slave Mentality: "Aren't you thankful that they allow
this?" [I am expected to limit myself to the context of "their" allowables.]
The proper answer is, "No, I am resentful that they forbid other freedoms I
should possess."
   They behave as though by naming your opinion in advance they will make
you unable to alter it.
   They have a six-inch knife and have stuck it four inches into me. Should
I be thankful they have not shoved it in the final two inches? Or resentful
that they have shoved it in four inches? [I am expected to accept their
behavioral context and to judge my situation from within that context.]
   "Let 'em eat cake!"

-Lem

[LiquidDamage]

Lem and Quark, thanks for explaining so well. I couldn't have done better.

This is the real problem. Those who have "spirituality" think everyone MUST HAVE IT. This is offensive, because I don't have it, and people don't freaking believe me, and are often insulting about it when they say so.

[Chaerophon]

Then again, it may not be worth quite such a confrontation...

[--Pete]

It's alright. Ma (I'm Only Bleeding) by Bob Dylan

Darkness at the break of noon
Shadows even the silver spoon
The handmade blade, the child's balloon
Eclipses both the sun and moon
To understand you know too soon
There is no sense in trying.

Pointed threats, they bluff with scorn
Suicide remarks are torn
From the fool's gold mouthpiece
The hollow horn plays wasted words
Proves to warn
That he not busy being born
Is busy dying.

Temptation's page flies out the door
You follow, find yourself at war
Watch waterfalls of pity roar
You feel to moan but unlike before
You discover
That you'd just be
One more person crying.

So don't fear if you hear
A foreign sound to your ear
It's alright, Ma, I'm only sighing.

As some warn victory, some downfall
Private reasons great or small
Can be seen in the eyes of those that call
To make all that should be killed to crawl
While others say don't hate nothing at all
Except hatred.

Disillusioned words like bullets bark
As human gods aim for their mark
Made everything from toy guns that spark
To flesh-colored Christs that glow in the dark
It's easy to see without looking too far
That not much
Is really sacred.

While preachers preach of evil fates
Teachers teach that knowledge waits
Can lead to hundred-dollar plates
Goodness hides behind its gates
But even the president of the United States
Sometimes must have
To stand naked.

An' though the rules of the road have been lodged
It's only people's games that you got to dodge
And it's alright, Ma, I can make it.

Advertising signs that con you
Into thinking you're the one
That can do what's never been done
That can win what's never been won
Meantime life outside goes on
All around you.

You lose yourself, you reappear
You suddenly find you got nothing to fear
Alone you stand with nobody near
When a trembling distant voice, unclear
Startles your sleeping ears to hear
That somebody thinks
They really found you.

A question in your nerves is lit
Yet you know there is no answer fit to satisfy
Insure you not to quit
To keep it in your mind and not fergit
That it is not he or she or them or it
That you belong to.

Although the masters make the rules
For the wise men and the fools
I got nothing, Ma, to live up to.

For them that must obey authority
That they do not respect in any degree
Who despise their jobs, their destinies
Speak jealously of them that are free
Cultivate their flowers to be
Nothing more than something
They invest in.

While some on principles baptized
To strict party platform ties
Social clubs in drag disguise
Outsiders they can freely criticize
Tell nothing except who to idolize
And then say God bless him.

While one who sings with his tongue on fire
Gargles in the rat race choir
Bent out of shape from society's pliers
Cares not to come up any higher
But rather get you down in the hole
That he's in.

But I mean no harm nor put fault
On anyone that lives in a vault
But it's alright, Ma, if I can't please him.

Old lady judges watch people in pairs
Limited in sex, they dare
To push fake morals, insult and stare
While money doesn't talk, it swears
Obscenity, who really cares
Propaganda, all is phony.

While them that defend what they cannot see
With a killer's pride, security
It blows the minds most bitterly
For them that think death's honesty
Won't fall upon them naturally
Life sometimes
Must get lonely.

My eyes collide head-on with stuffed graveyards
False gods, I scuff
At pettiness which plays so rough
Walk upside-down inside handcuffs
Kick my legs to crash it off
Say okay, I have had enough
What else can you show me?

And if my thought-dreams could be seen
They'd probably put my head in a guillotine
But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only.