Car Experts Please Apply Here!

[Artega]

I own a 1996 4-Cylinder Toyota Camry LE automatic, and it's in need of a new radiator. I don't yet have the funds available, but I've gotten an estimate from a trusted body shop, and they have priced it at $360.00 plus tax. Thinking that this was a bit high, I went to eBay and did a search for radiators for my particular car, and I found a Koyo radiator, brand new, listed for $110.00 US as a "Buy it Now!" option. If this price is at all accurate, then the body shop is charging $250.00 for labor. Is this a fair price, or do you believe that I could get a better quote?

[Chaerophon]

I've never seen the rad on a 96 Toyota, but I can't imagine that it's too damn complicated. I'd ask the guys (or gals, of course) what's involved. If it amounts to "pulling the rad, putting a new one in, and refilling the fluids, without any need for the removal of other parts (fans aside) in order to get the rad out, then I'd suggest that you're getting ripped. Another possibility is that they are using OEM equipment which might be of better quality or just plain more expensive than the Koyo radiator.

I suppose that the bottom line is that if you were to do it yourself, and the motor is installed such that no other parts need to be removed in order to get the rad out (e.g. some Volkswagens are a real b&*ch to get at the rad), which is what I suspect is the case, then, having worked on a pair of slightly older toyotas in the past, I would estimat that it would take an hour, at the very most, to pull and reinstall the rad. If the rad that they're using is 110 bucks and they're charging you 250 for labour, I'd go elsewhere. If the situation is otherwise, then maybe it's a good price... who knows?

Unless someone else knows more about Toyotas than I do, (which is altogether possible, in fact, it's quite likely) I'd suggest that in order to figure it out, you need to ask a couple of more questions. :) Of course, you could always take a picture and post it, and it would probably be pretty easy to tell what was going on.

[Tal]

I just took a look at a Toyota repair manual at the library and it doesn't appear upon first glance that replacing the radiator is overly difficult on that model. The usual shop rate is between $75 and $100 an hour - that equals to between 2 and a half to just over 3 hours for this replacement. This in my opinion seems to be a bit on the high side for such a repair but again without looking at the car this is only guess work on my part. You could always get an idea from another repair shop on what it should cost.

[Griselda]

I paid $300 to get a radiator installed 10 years ago. So, it doesn't sound completely unreasonable to me.

-Griselda

[Nicodemus Phaulkon]

Get OFF your computer and get ON your phone and start dialing.

Pick at least 5 different garages, describing your situation and asking for an estimate. Even if they "ballpark" the estimate, you should be able to get a good reading on what the area's typical expectation is.

When it comes to Vehicle repairs, there is no such thing as "trust". Shop around, always. Even garages that I've gone to repeatedly will not automatically get my business when something goes amiss... I always shop around.

Lastly, all those parts are your's; tell them you want to see your property after they replace them. I've threatened Fraud on more than one occasion when the garage couldn't seem to produce the part they claimed to have replaced, be it a belt, hose, logic module... whatever. Garages like to advertise that they have a "trusted friendship" with their customers; this is absolute bunk... and generally a nice lead-in to them wanting you to just put-up and shut-up with any of their recommendations. Your relationship with a Garage (and any other service-oriented repair business) should always remain adversarial.

Luck.

[ShadowHM]

Garages like to advertise that they have a "trusted friendship" with their customers; this is absolute bunk... and generally a nice lead-in to them wanting you to just put-up and shut-up with any of their recommendations.  Your relationship with a Garage (and any other service-oriented repair business) should always remain adversarial.

Luck.

Maybe it is the word 'garages' that I am disagreeing with, as opposed to 'your regular mechanic', but we have had considerable success and comfort level with a specific mechanic for about 15 years now. He has seen us through a series of older cars. He replaced another trusted mechanic who moved out of the city.

But an adversarial relationship with a service provider just doesn't work for me. If they make me feel as if there is a need for adversarial relations, I move along. But having found a trusted one, I tend to keep them. Word of mouth from other customers is a better bet than phoning around, in my opinion.

And I don't think this attitude should be restricted to service oriented repair businesses. I feel the same way about my dentist and my family doctor. Shop around until you find a good one, and then work to make your relationship non-adversarial.

YMMV But this attitude works for me.

[jahcs]

I own a 1996 4-Cylinder Toyota Camry LE automatic, and it's in need of a new radiator. I don't yet have the funds available, but I've gotten an estimate from a trusted body shop, and they have priced it at $360.00 plus tax. Thinking that this was a bit high, I went to eBay and did a search for radiators for my particular car, and I found a Koyo radiator, brand new, listed for $110.00 US as a "Buy it Now!" option. If this price is at all accurate, then the body shop is charging $250.00 for labor. Is this a fair price, or do you believe that I could get a better quote?

I work in the parts department at a Chevrolet/Cadillac dealer north of Seattle WA. I made a few calls to check on this for you. Our local NAPA auto parts, which deals in aftermarket brands, has a radiator listed at $200.59. Our local Toyota dealer has an OEM (Original Eqipment Manufacturer) radiator listed at $285.00. The quote from your local mechanic - does it specify whether the radiator will be a new replacement, OEM or aftermarket, a reconditioned replacement, or whether they will pull the radiator, recondition it, and then reinstall? The last option is only available in certain situations.

The parts you find on ebay are probably at or below the wholesale price your local shop pays. Also you may check on the brand name and seller's history, return policy, etc. Many shops will not install parts provided by the customer. If they do there is frequently no warranty.

edit: Just to clarify - the prices I provided are the radiator only. Does the body shop estimate of $360.00 state whether that is the part only or the parts and labor. There may be other parts and fees involved. Waste disposal ($3-$10), new coolant ($8-$28 a gallon), hose clamps ($1-$2 each), transmission fluid (to top off the transmission if the radiator has a transmission cooler)

[Kevin]

Your relationship with a Garage (and any other service-oriented repair business) should always remain adversarial.

I agree that you should phone around for ballpark numbers, if not take it in to have an estimated done (unless getting the estimate costs you, which it shouldn't).

But I don't agree with having an adversarial relationship with the service provider. Being cautious and not blindly accepting the offer is a good idea. Doing checks on the work is a good idea, but that doesn't require being adversarial. That just requires being smart and at least partially thorough. You can build a solid relationship with a service provider and you can have and should have trust in the work they do and the prices they quote you. Having been a self employed service provider before, there were times where I simply couldn't beat a competitors price and still break even on the job for numerous reasons (different dealers, different equipment sets, different wholesale prices, they simply charged cheaper per hour labor for that type of work because it was their speciality, etc). In those cases I would tell my customers who I had built good relationships with, why it was more expensive for me to do the work and suggest that they get it done for less. Heck even the people who got all confrontational all the time I would usually be nice to as well since that is just good for business. In some cases I would lower labor charges, in some cases the customer would have me do the work at my higher price, in some cases the customers would do the work elsewhere but come back to me for other future work.

But just because you shop around and check work sets, doesn't mean the relationship has to be adversarial. Maybe I just have a differnet connotation set for that word than others and maybe we are in complete agreement on this except for verbiage.

[Nicodemus Phaulkon]

But just because you shop around and check work sets, doesn't mean the relationship has to be adversarial. Maybe I just have a differnet connotation set for that word than others and maybe we are in complete agreement on this except for verbiage.

That would be my fault; "adversarial" was used in contrast to "trusting" in my mind. A better word is out there, but I can't think of one at the moment. By "adversarial" I do not mean conflictive or confrontational... I meant it as keeping your own best interests foremost in your mind. "Being cautious and not blindly accepting the offer" comes as close to what I meant as anything. This applies even in cases such as ShadowHM suggested, where a mechanic has done service for you for decades. Still, shop around; if nothing else, it will reinforce your decision to stay with that mechanic.

Another example of my "adversarial" relationship with service providers: Auto Insurance. I've been with the same brokerage and the same insurer for almost 10 years now. They know my voice on the phone, and treat my daughter like a princess when we go into the office. None of which prevents me, every Spring, from phoning around to several (Five is my magic number) other Insurance Brokers to get quotes for our auto insurance. Neither conflictive nor confrontational... but I'm looking out for Number One.

*tips helm*

[LochnarITB]

That would be my fault;  "adversarial" was used in contrast to "trusting" in my mind.  A better word is out there, but I can't think of one at the moment.

Unless I am misunderstanding you, I think it would have been better to just say "be wary". As found at Merriam Webster Online:

Main Entry: wary

: marked by keen caution, cunning, and watchful prudence especially in detecting and escaping danger
synonym see CAUTIOUS

Of course, the danger is to the pocketbook and not the physical being but I think it works.

As to the radiator question:

Don't most shops use standardized tables for labor hours? This would mean the variables would be the hourly rate charged by the shop and the price of the radiator and added charges for supplies such as shop supplies, fluids, hoses and clamps. I would also be very cautious about any type of used radiator, especially a "pulled" radiator. A guaranteed reconditioned one might be ok. The problem is that there is, to my knowledge, no way to know what is really hidden inside a radiator. The inside of it is all little nooks and crannies and corrosion hides. Even a pressure test doesn't tell you much. It might take very little more corrosion to get it to the point that it has more holes than a pin cushion.

[Selby]

Big question is whether the radiator is new and what the cost the shop has in providing one. I would expect a new "standard" radiator 3-4 core radiator to run $175-250. I don't know too much about newer Toyotas, but a new OEM radiator for a '98 Honda cost about $225 in '99. If that's the price, then 1.5-2 hours sounds about fair for installation (erring on the side of caution). Disposal fees associated with the old coolant that needs to be drained, new coolant\water, and new hoses\clamps all need to be factored in. They usually don't just toss the old coolant in the car when they replace the radiator. So I would expect the price to be "fair." Shopping around can probably save you a few bucks, but I wouldn't expect to save much more and actually trust the quality of work I was getting (like if they charged you $150 to give you a new radiator, yet new ones cost $200, I would be VERY suspect). As someone who has done the job on various other cars, it's a simple job provided the radiator is easy to get to as opposed to being mounted under half the motor near expensive sensors that fry if coolant touches them.

[DeeBye]

I'm surprised that no one has suggested transplanting that old worn-out radiator from your '86 Camry into my time-travelling '87 Camry. Given a week or two, I'm sure that my car would fix that radiator right up.