Combat Tactics

[dkass]

I've been reading the discussion here with some interest (since WOW is a candidate for the next Lounge game). I normally wouldn't be interested in the game (I didn't like Warcraft and don't usually care for MMOs). I'm more of a strategy game type of player (note that I do not consider RTS games to be strategy games).

I have several questions about the tactical aspects of combat (in particular, most of my other questions are being answered by other threads).

Is friendly fire implemented in the game? If not is it "missed"? By this, I mean, do people use massive AOE spells on a regular basis? Does it allow weaker characters to (too) easily hide behind tanks? I should note that the lack of friendly fire in D2 was always one of my greatest dissapointments. I suspect it isn't in the game (due to grief issues), but I'm also interested in whether or not it is missed (IMHO, this is one of the top 3 flaws with D2).

Is terrain important in shaping the tactics used in a given battle (or misison)? I don't hear anyone mentioning the type of terrain... For example, can you get closer to monsters before they notice you if you approach from behind a tree? Or do you try to use terrain to protect you from missile/magical armed ranged attackers?

How varied are tactics based on the different types of monsters at any given character level? Does it increase with level? One way to "measure" this would be the number of different approaches based on the monster you're facing. How many are necessary as opposed to convenient (ie won't win the battle vs win a bit faster)? Does this change whether it is a group or solo? (I'm particularly interested in the answers for groups). Does terrain play a part in this?

How important is playing skill/universe knowledge in shaping tactics? Can a new player do half as well as a veteran, 90% as well (with the same character)? Does the character level matter? Is much of the difference going to be in character development/optimization (as it is in D2)? I realize (hope) it may be too soon to answer these question.

I'll admit that much of what I'm reading so far is indicating that the tactics are even less diverse than D2 (which was much worse than D1). For me, D2 was really on the borderline of fun and boring (I enjoyed D2, but always felt it was wayyy below its potential).

[FoxBat]

Is friendly fire implemented in the game?

No, but AoE isn't as big a deal when you're taking on so few monsters, often...

Is terrain important in shaping the tactics used in a given battle (or misison)?

Only if you're a high-artillery mage teleporting to some odd locations. Generally not as monsters can teleport to you if they get stuck, plus there's not even any collision detection in the game. Line of sight matters in indoor locations, and you want to be positioned so you attract as few monsters at a time as possible, but that's about it.

How varied are tactics based on the different types of monsters at any given character level? ...  Does this change whether it is a group or solo?

Group makes a huge difference; soloing where possible involves repetitive tactics. Coordinating a group opens up many more combo possibilites as well as chaos.

Generally you'll find a certain X tactic works very well for a given area, only varying when you move areas to new "types" of monsters. The other type of varying is when you wake up too many monsters at a time and you have to survive somehow.

I'll admit that much of what I'm reading so far is indicating that the tactics are even less diverse than D2

D2 had tactics? :rolleyes: WoW isn't that bad, but it certainly is not any strategy game.

Can a new player do half as well as a veteran

Maybe. There is some orientation involved, and monsters are quite good at kicking your arse. But ultimately at best, I think the game still has more to do with skill (learning to respond quickly and chain together several commands appropriate to a given area) than thought-out strategy.

Is much of the difference going to be in character development/optimization?

For a given class, last I saw, no. Phase 1 was analagous to your D2 barbarian automatically unlocking every skill in the barb's combat and warcry skill trees as they gained levels, with only the passives/masteries tree to choose from. But they've since retooled the talents system, so who knows.

[MongoJerry]

There's not much in the way of tactics involving terrain, but there certainly is when it comes to deciding which skills to use in a given situation. For my priestess, I have about 20 skills that I use *in battle* depending on the mob(s) and what sized party I'm in. This is a far cry from D2 where a sorceress could choose from Fireball, Meteor, Frozen Orb, Static Field, and Teleport and kill nearly everything in the game. (Note: I'm not counting buffs and trade skills in my list of 20. I was only referring to skills that I use in battle).

[lemekim]

/ranty

I don't know about variety in WoW either - a player would generally pick a style that suits him/his equipment, and repeatedly use certian skills in this combat. Take druid for example - as far as I know, the battles usually consist pressing a button to cast Starfire (to pull), then pressing a button once in a while to cast Moonfire and occasional rejuvenation, and watching your character smack the mob with your weapon. I am not saying it's boring... Oh wait it is. The quests and the rewards are what keep it interesting (to me anyway). Sure, occasionally you get to use other spells, but in general you often end up using a certain combination over and over.

In Diablo you at least have the ability to use terrain to your advantage, doorways, in other words there are other ways to add depth to the battles besides spell diversity (but of course a thousand cow runs is just as mindnumbingly boring). And if we could all have our skills at maximum levels in Diablo, I think we would find that people would use different spells for different situations.

I am not sure if that's what the original poster meant, but to me it seems tactics are almost nonexistent in WoW. Strategy, yes. A lot of strategic planning often required to take out certain mobs. Choosing what skills to use against which mobs to me is strategy. But tactics... When you try to use terrain (like a mountain ridge) to run away from a mob, they will often teleport to you because they could not get over the range. You tried to use tactics, you get punished for it. You want to use a river to slow down the pursuit? Unlike you, they don't slow down in water, they just keep running along the bottom of the water, attacking you (yes from 100 feet below). You corner a mob when it tried to run away, and it magically teleports through walls or somewhere else, often bringing his buddies. In this game I find you get punished for trying to use tactics. =(

/ranty

[unless]

/ranty

...

I am not sure if that's what the original poster meant, but to me it seems tactics are almost nonexistent in WoW. Strategy, yes. A lot of strategic planning often required to take out certain mobs. Choosing what skills to use against which mobs to me is strategy. But tactics... When you try to use terrain (like a mountain ridge) to run away from a mob, they will often teleport to you because they could not get over the range. You tried to use tactics, you get punished for it. You want to use a river to slow down the pursuit? Unlike you, they don't slow down in water, they just keep running along the bottom of the water, attacking you (yes from 100 feet below). You corner a mob when it tried to run away, and it magically teleports through walls or somewhere else, often bringing his buddies. In this game I find you get punished for trying to use tactics. =(

/ranty

My understanding (and hope) is that this sort of thing will be eliminated as more code is pushed into the game. I don't think retail players would very well stand for teleporting mobs and intangible trees, eh?

[--Pete]

Hi,

It is my hope, too. However, a careful reading of the official site and fora indicates that the WoW-bay system for trading articles and the WoWPS system for delivering those articles (and, incidentally, in game mail) are receiving much more focus than are game play issues. Even PvP is a much more "important" topic.

So, we'll see.

--Pete

[lemekim]

My understanding (and hope) is that this sort of thing will be eliminated as more code is pushed into the game.  I don't think retail players would very well stand for teleporting mobs and intangible trees, eh?

I really do hope so. Although I did hear from other players that such thing as teleporting mobs and other similar issues are common in other MMORGPs. Let's hope WoW will stray from that path =P

[MongoJerry]

It is my hope, too. However, a careful reading of the official site and fora indicates that the WoW-bay system for trading articles and the WoWPS system for delivering those articles (and, incidentally, in game mail) are receiving much more focus than are game play issues. Even PvP is a much more "important" topic.

They can't say *everything* they're working on. It is a big project after all. Agreed, though, we'll see.

[dkass]

First of all, thanks for the replies, it doesn't sound too good.

Lemekin's last paragraph expresses a lot of what I view as strategy vs tactics in a game like this. My only caveat would be that if the skill choice and such is made on the fly (or at least the timing is made on the fly), it does start to fall into the tactics realm. By on the fly, I mean after starting to engage the mob without time to disengage think it over and then start the engagement again. This ususally requires both unique mobs and little time after seeing one to plan and react (bosses in D2 are an example of this). From what I'm reading, though, the only time this might occur, to some extent, is when a second (third) mob shows up to the party. Is this a good assesment?

Skill/equipment/combat pattern selection versus a given mob made in advance of the engagement is a strategic decision, but it seems that this is the same for a given mob every time they're encountered. So once the optimum strategy for a given mob (given the character/party) is figured out, it seems there are no more decisions, its just then a matter of competently executing the strategy when that mob is encountered.

I found that such strategic decisions are few and far between for these type of games compared to a good strategy game (even if one doubled or tirpled the number of such decisions in D2 it would still be low). For example, my favorite part of character development in D2 is levels 1 through 25 or so, no-twink no-trade. This maximizes the number of strategic decisions (but it is still very light in such decisions). I tend to play only a few characters longer, and do so for two reasons 1) boredom with acts 1 & 2 and 2) to see some of the more powerful items once or twice.

The ability of mobs to teleport and/or ignore terrain sounds disasterous from at tactics pov. And the fact that they do it implies the designers are having pathing development problems (I suspect its the same messy thing as in D2 and they can't rely on large numbers of mobs to overcome it). These are not easy problems to solve, so I won't hold out much hope.

I'm sad to hear this is yet another MMO game where they've left out tactics (serious strategy won't be part of such a game--it requires being able to control much larger numbers of creatures/units). I'll have to see how it is when they release it...

[--Pete]

Hi,

I would say that there are no strategic decision in a game like WoW. All the decisions are tactical. The strategy is completely governed by the need to level and the size of the mobs you can handle. You have scant choices (to quest or to grind, to rest or not). As to the rest, such as what attacks and formations to use against what mobs, that is tactical -- it can be figured out once, practiced, and used repeatedly.

--Pete

[DeeBye]

Hi,

I would say that there are no strategic decision in a game like WoW.  All the decisions are tactical. The strategy is completely governed by the need to level and the size of the mobs you can handle.  You have scant choices (to quest or to grind, to rest or not).  As to the rest, such as what attacks and formations to use against what mobs, that is tactical -- it can be figured out once, practiced, and used repeatedly.

--Pete

I pretty much agree. The gameplay (especially the battles) in WoW is more akin to a turn-based RPG than an action RPG. If you think along those lines, it's pretty clear that tactics and not strategy are important. Once you're in a battle, there are limited options. It's all about the preparation before a battle that will determine how successful you are.

[Little Faith]

The games in that genre are usually not too strategically deep.


The small glimpse I got of Guild Wars in the open E3 stunt showed some interesting things though. Just as WoW the collision detection were horribly broken, but monsters usually came and acted in groups and you needed to do some pretty hairy "divide and conquer" moves.

Unlike other games of it's kind you did not have access to all your skills all the time. Instead you had to pick a number of skills before embarking on a mission. Great variety is thus attainable. Even within the same character. Also working together in a well balanced party were a blast. Something that can sadly not be said about Diablo 2 (but can be said about WoW from what I hear).

[Bolty]

Also working together in a well balanced party were a blast. Something that can sadly not be said about Diablo 2 (but can be said about WoW from what I hear).

In WoW, parties are most definitely stronger than the sum of their parts. Because of the massive variety of skills and spells between classes, when you bring 2 or more classes together, their power increases exponentially. This is, of course, assuming that both players are excellent players of their class. In WoW, 1 newbie can wipe out a whole party by not understanding aggro or making a mistake and not playing their proper role.

-Bolty

[Rinnhart]

In WoW, 1 newbie can wipe out a whole party by not understanding aggro or making a mistake and not playing their proper role.

Such is the nature of MMOs.

[Bolty]

Such is the nature of MMOs.

I suppose so, but it's quite frustrating. Say in Diablo II, if someone does something really really dumb, you can slam up your hotkeyed town portal and be safe in less than a second (sans lag). But in an MMO like WoW, you have no recourse but to die.

-Bolty