WC3: FT Communities...

[Jester]

I'm not exactly a gosu, since my micro isn't exactly fantastic, but I've watched a *lot* of replays and played probably close to 300 games (and lost all of the ones against skill players).

There are a few important things to remember:

1. Your heroes are your life. Losing a hero isn't losing a unit. In the wrong spot, it's losing the game. One of the big keys to good play is being able to keep a hero alive without crippling its potential.

2. Creeping should be done if, and only if, there isn't any advantage to attacking or harassing the opponent. (Really skilled players do both at the same time on occasion to *huge* advantage, but that takes more micro than I'll ever have.) Corollary: scout, scout, scout. If you don't know he's vulnerable, it doesn't matter if he is or not.

3. Static defense is the most dynamic thing in the game. Seriously. The decision to either put up towers or not is entirely in reaction to what your opponent is doing (or you think he's doing) rather than an integral part of every game. Is he going to harass? Build an anti-harass tower (nerubian, arcane). Are you staying at a low tier and expanding? Get 2-4 towers at your expansion. Are you teching like crazy? Get a tower or two to cover your ass. Your opponent teching like crazy? Tower rush his sorry butt. But never, ever, waste money on towers if you don't know why you're doing it. Units, tech and expansions are overwhelmingly a better investment *in most circumstances*.

4. The AI hasn't got a clue. Don't even bother. It has unreal micro in the best of situations, and absolute zero if you catch it off guard. Real players are easy to find in WC3. Even noobs.

5. Watch replays! They'll teach you everything you need to know to get to however high your micro will allow. I recommend Durandal for UD, 4k.Grubby or Ghostridah for orc, Heman/Insomnia/lots of others for Human, and Cecil for NE. YMMV.

6. Micro doesn't work without macro, macro doesn't work without micro. Forgetting one or the other has cost me oh-so-many games. Hotkeys are your in-battle friends.

There's plenty more to say, but I gotta go. :)

If anyone wants to play some games, I could be persuaded to take up WC again...

Jester

[Munkay]

Do you play expansion or regular WC3?

-Munk

[Artega]

Heroes are important only in the early game, unless they have a game-breaking Ultimate (such as the Warden's, the Far Seer's, or the Paladin's); otherwise, your normal units are what will really win the war for you. That's not to say that you shouldn't have a hero; if nothing else, they make great decoys.

You earn more XP for killing your enemy than for killing creeps. The only reason that you should creep instead of attack is if it's a creeper map (i.e., there are creeps EVERYWHERE.) The major advantage to creeping (besides the XP) is that you can get some very powerful items (the Book of the Dead, any of the tomes, and Claws of Attack can make a huge difference), and sometimes access to certain structures (Goblin Shredders are invaluable for efficient lumber harvesting.)

Humans can use the Ivory Tower item (you can get it at an Arcane Vault after you reach tier two) to plant a scout tower anywhere; Night Elves can use the Huntress' Sentinel ability or tape a Wisp to a tree; UD should have shades taped to enemy heroes at all times; Orcs can use Troll Batriders or Raiders. Scout at all times, especially if your opponent(s) chose Random.

A turtled Orc encampment with the Fortified building armor upgrades, along with the spiked barricades upgrades, can be about the hardest nut to crack, even WITH siege equipment. UD encampments with a good mix of Nerubian and Spirit towers can also be similarly hard to crack.

Replays are overrated. I've learned more from beating (and being beaten by) people than wasting time watching replays.

I can be reached online under ArtegaAP ^_^

[Archon_Wing]

I defeated a normal computer. ;) I will go online if I ever get my own copy of the game. My friend will want to get the game back.

[Refrigerator]

I'm going to do a summary of the people that have currently posted their account names. This list is mainly to save people time relooking through the posts for account names, and organize things for people like me.

(Note: For people who have not specifically mentioned their Warcraft III names, or who might not have a battle.net account, or where I just missed the account, I put in their Lurkerlounge name and a question mark, indicating that it needs verification.)

Here goes:

Forum Name ---> Warcraft name - Realm

Artega ---> ArtegaAP -

Refrigerator ---> Refrigerator - West

Fridge's friend ---> Matthis - West

Malakar ---> Malakar2 - East/West

Bob ---> Bobmastery - West

Kandrathe ---> Kandrathe - East/West

Jester ---> OrkishMandolin - West

Sir Die alot ---> Thunderbird - West

unrealshadow13 ---> unrealshadow13 - (?)

SwissMercenary ---> MasterNightFall - West

Munkay ---> RisexFromxRuin - , Anexos - (Note: WC III classic only)

Az3ar ---> Kikosemmek -

Archon_Wing ---> Archon_Wing - West

Alright, please tell me when you notice something I messed up on. Yes, when not if. :lol:

[Munkay]

I like to experiment with new names, but for the most part I play on RisexFromxRuin when in Warcraft. Its also possible to catch me on Anexos from time to time.

I lost the account name Munkay a year ago, after not checking my first account in a very long time. So it's doubtful if you'll ever be able to identify me by anything 'munk' related.

Best bet is to send me a PM about a game. I don't bite. And I keep the LL in the background whenever I'm on the comp.

-Munk

[Sir_Die_alot]

Sir Die alot ---> Sir_Die_alot(?)

Oops I forgot my normal account. Silly me. :o While I do have the account Sir_Die_alot on every realm and that's the name I use on most, I usually play west (Lordaeron) on the account Thunderbird.

[Jester]

"Heroes are important only in the early game, unless they have a game-breaking Ultimate (such as the Warden's, the Far Seer's, or the Paladin's); otherwise, your normal units are what will really win the war for you. That's not to say that you shouldn't have a hero; if nothing else, they make great decoys."

I couldn't disagree more. First, the Farseer's ultimate is somewhere between useless and use-free. The Farseer as an ordinary hero, sans-ultimate, is the difference between winning and losing. 2 spirit wolves? Lv. 3 chain lightning? These are game-breaking abilities. Second, hero nuke is probably the strongest tactic in the undead playbook, and more than viable for the other races. Try winning without your heroes, even in the late game; it's just not likely. Warden is more useful for FoK and SS than Spirit of Vengeance, although it's certainly nice to have.

This is not to say that heroes are the only thing that wins games. But they are the core of every army, your no. 1 priority at all times, and they only become more so the more you engage your opponent. In a low-intensity game, yeah, those level 2 heroes aren't much compared to the 100/100 food of frenzied frost wyrms. But if there's constant back-and-forth, that level 4 FS going down means GG.

Scouting methods are all good. I'd only caution that scouting is most useful when you don't have those options available yet. Don't ever hesitate to pull a peon/wisp/acolyte/milita and go scouting; it might just pay off. Also, building farms is a great human way to scout for cheap, much better than towers.

Creeping, as I said, is only good if you get more advantage from it than from attacking. Like right at the beginning of the game, where a one-level advantage can be decisive, or when you know you can power-creep a strong camp very early. Just don't ever let it distract you from the actual opponent. :)

Replays are overrated, yes, but they teach you what you need to know. They don't help you practice it, or figure out your own strengths and weaknesses. But without watching a gosu replay or ten from each new patch, it's hard to know what your opponent might throw at you, or what to throw back.

[Jester]

Expansion.

But I could probably go back to classic RoC if necessary, although it's kinda creep-oriented.

Jester

[Jester]

"Micromanagement makes Warcraft almost easy. If anybody would like to see what I mean (ie, didn't understand explanation, I'll make a replay of an example)."

Funny. That's usually the reason people think it's *hard*. You gotta be quick with the fingers, cool under pressure, and always aware of the right moves to make even within a split second. And if your opponent does it better than you, it won't matter a hill of beans that he has casters and you have anti-casters, or that he has air and you have ranged, or whatever.

Jester

[kandrathe]

Yes, that is right. I'm Kandrathe on Lordaeron and Azeroth.

[Artega]

I've won games (as Orc, anyway) without ever truly using my hero other than as a mobile rally point. I'll usually grab a Tauren Chieftain (lots of HP and War Stomp is great for annoying the piss out of enemies) and tack on a few Grunts and Headhunters and go running around to distract my enemy, while I sneak in 12-18 Raiders into his base and lay waste to it. While he's busy chasing my Tauren and his crew halfway across the map, my Raiders are busily tearing up his town. You can also sneak a pack of 12-16 Wind Riders in behind the hero(es) and units chasing your Tauren and assassinate the hero(es) and/or units, assuming that there isn't much AA present. If you manage to force the enemy to use his Town Portal to save himself (or, in team games, save his partner), the Raider strategy becomes even more effective.

For Undead, use lots of Ghouls, Necromancers, and Obsidian Statues with Spirit Touch. The Ghouls are cannon fodder, mostly to provide corpses and to tie up enemy units. The Necromancers use Raise Dead to create skeletal armies, and the Obsidian Statues refill the Necromancers' Mana reserves. You can also research Destroyer form and use the statues for air-based attacks should the need arise. Meat Wagons with Exhume Corpses also complement this force nicely.

You don't need heroes to win games, but they do make nice mobile rally points or "kill me" signs.

[SwissMercenary]

You don't need heroes to win games, but they do make nice mobile rally points or "kill me" signs.

Against inexperienced opponents, heros are not necessary, but at higher levels (and higher I mean bnet level 9-10+), heros make the difference between victory and defeat.

One of the most effective strategies with Orc is to "harass" your opponent, prior to either:

A) Very fast teching.

B) A follow-up attack to end the game quickly.

With all the races, bar Undead, I tend to build an altar, and a food building with 2 of my starting peasants, for the earliest possible hero rush. As the Orc, I also construct a Voodoo Lounge immediately after that burrow finishes. That shop has both health, and mana regeneration items in stock. But, anyways, back to the topic of harass...

The two main harass heroes for the Orc are the Far Seer and the Blademaster. While late game, neither one is great when large armies are involved, if you can cripple your opponent early game, who cares about the late game? :D

For an example of how Blademaster harass works, here's what often happens in my games.

As soon as the Blademaster is built, the Voodoo Lounge finishes. I buy 2 clarity potions, 1 healing salve, and 1 speed scroll. I head in the direction of the (scouted out) enemy base, as I invest a point in Windwalk.

Right before I am in sight of enemy buildings, I activate Windwalk, and waltz right into the base. I pick the worker furthest from enemy units/moonwells, and attack it. Wisps go down in 4 normal attacks, on in 1 windwalked attack, and 1 follow-up attack. Other workers take more attacks, but set the enemy back more. If enemy units are absent, I continue attacking workers, untill the blademaster is threatened - then I windwalk, and move to another part of the base. Once all the workers are dead, or the base becomes too dangerous, I windwalk or speed scroll out of the base, and use my salves/clarities. As soon as the enemy leaves to creep, I go at it again - all the while, grunts are being amassed at home, and my Great Hall is being upgraded.

Key points in harassing:

Go for peasants building something. Often, when the harass is beaten back, your opponent will discover that he let an unfinished farm sit there for a minute, and he hit his supply cap. Oops.

Alternatively, go for lumber collectors. In early game, lumber is what prevents players from upgrading their main, and crippling their lumber sets them back for the rest of the game. Additionally, unlike gold miners, lumber harvesting workers stand still for long periods of time - perfect targets for Blizzard/Spirit wolves/etc. Of course, if you have the Keeper of the Grove, you can also interrupt gold mining, with your entangle.

Never, ever, ever waste your TP scroll. It costs 350 gold to replace, and is unavailable until Tier 2. Often, it's best to let your hero die (Although it does give the enemy a lot of exp), as a lvl 1 hero costs 170 gold to revive. If a unit such as a grunt is in danger, though, by all means, TP.

Do not forget about your own base - quickly scroll back, and que up new food buildings, upgrades, etc. Unit producers should be hotkeyed, so you shouldn't have a problem with making more units. (I just press 5 G to train a grunt, etc)

Unless you are doing extended harassment, don't rally your units to your harassing hero - they can be attacked by creeps along the way, and are generally a nuicance. Also, note that units following heroes, instead of units attack moving in formation are less reluctant to attack.

Mass an army at your base - you don't want to give your opponent your strategy away.

About the "Chase the Tauren game" - that startegy is, as I said, viable at lower levels of play, but ineffective later. Sure, you made your opponent waste a TP scroll - 350 gold. The problem is, you now have 10 raiders, who will be dog meat against heavy melee. (Raiders do less damage then grunts against heavy armoured units, due to their slow attack speed, and take EXTRA damage from normal melee units. And they are expensive. Raider vs tauren = Tauren can win 4-1.)

As for general strategies - the most effective ones take advantage of specific unit combinations.

Some effective ones:

Human:

Rifles/Casters. Throw in a few knights if the game is 1v1. Although melee SHOULD counter rifles, the theory doesn't stick when there's 4 sorceresses casting slow, several priests are healing, and the Archmage + Bloodmage are spamming Blizzard and Flamestrike on your slowed units. This strategy is very effective against most things, save Dryads/Bears/Mountain Giants, and Abominations/Destroyers. Destroyers simply slaughter any kind of buffing/cursing spellcaster - they are a must against a human opponent. This strategy is highly effective against orcs, as they do not have easily accessable disspel - hence the orc often harasses & rushes the human, before he can hit Tier 2. Until the Undead/Night Elf is Tier 3, though, you do not have much to fear from them - hence you should strive to end the game quickly.

Orc:

Grunts/Casters/Tauren. If you are sure that your enemy is not going air, or your teammates have anti-air ready, this will slaughter anything that moves. Just make sure you have dispell, because when the polymorphs start flying, this will hurt. Note - Tauren are higher priority then casters. Another strategy is extended harassing with a far seer, and fast teching to Stronghold, and Wind Riders - don't even bother making a barracks.

Undead:

Ghouls/Gargoyles with a Dreadlord as a primary hero is an effective rush strategy. Throw in a few necromancers. Crypt Fiends/Statues (And later destroyers) are very good against enemy air units, and should be first priority in team games.

Night Elf:

There are two main tech routes - the Ancient of Lore, and the Ancient of Wind. I, myself, always get 1 Ancient of War, and try to quickly tech to Tier 2 - once I get there, I build 2 Ancients or Lore or 2 of Wind. If I'm going for Lore, I mass huntresses in Tier 1, with a Keeper of the Grove/Warden - if I go for Wind, I mass archers/Priestess of the moon. If I go the Lore route, my army consists of huntresses/dryads/bears/mountain giants (The perfect counter to riflemen/casters). With Lore, it's paramount to get the Tier 3 upgrades. If I go the Wind route, I get around 10 archers, which later become Hippogryph riders, with the rest of my units being a mixture of Druids of the Talon, and Faerie dragons. This strategy is very effective against melee/casters, as faerie fire + mana flare + focus fire from Hippogryph riders make short work of Tauren/Shaman/Witch doctors.

(P.S. My account on West is MasterNightfall)

[Malakar]

I'm Malakar2 on US West/East.

[Artega]

Harass with a Blademaster never works if you opponent has access to Stun-causing attacks, especially Tauren Chieftains. War Stomp will stop your invisible Blademaster cold, and he'll become visible (and hence, attackable) to boot. They could also simply use Dust of Appearance. Harassing only works on newbies, for the most part.

The problem is, you now have 10 raiders, who will be dog meat against heavy melee.

The Raiders aren't attacking enemy units. You run them in, cause as much damage as possible, targetting important structures (town centers, altars, barracks, and such) first, or targetting the weakest structures (destroying four or five farms can cripple your enemy) first if heavy resistance is nearby.

This strategy is highly effective against orcs, as they do not have easily accessable disspel - hence the orc often harasses & rushes the human, before he can hit Tier 2.

The Spirit Walker has a very effective dispel spell, and they're invaluable against Undead that utilize large numbers of summoned units. Of course, most people overlook the Spirit Walker.

Ghouls/Gargoyles with a Dreadlord as a primary hero is an effective rush strategy. Throw in a few necromancers. Crypt Fiends/Statues (And later destroyers) are very good against enemy air units, and should be first priority in team games.

A large number of ghouls coupled with a fair amount of Necromancers can easily win you the game. A Dreadlord providing Sleep and Vampiric Aura just sweetens the deal, though I'd rather have a Lich for Frost Nova. Ghouls become the Cracklings of War3 once you get Ghoul Frenzy, so teching to Tier 3 might be a good idea. Definitely bring some Crypt Fiends with Web along if your enemy is showing signs of air units. A few Frost Wyrms with Freezing Breath can be useful in keeping the enemy from making a new army or reviving a hero, though they may prove to be too expensive if you don't have at least one expansion going.

Night Elves seem to favor using large numbers of Huntresses; use units with piercing damage (Riflemen and Archers work well, and a large contingent of Headhunters can work in a pinch) to counter this, or large melee units (Grunts and Tauren do an admirable job here.) If they go with Archers, Footmen with Defend will be your best friends. If they go with Mountain Giants and Bears, you'll need to go with air units or the heaviest melee units you can find. Don't underestimate the Banshee's Possession ability or the Dark Ranger's Charm here.

As for neutral heroes, I find myself grabbing a Sea Witch whenever possible; Forked Lightning is great if the baddies get too close, and Frost Arrows is even better than Storm Bolt for taking down fleeing heroes. If you can get one early on, you can absolutely CRUSH a harassing hero with her Frost Arrows, or at least force them to use their TP.

[Swiss Mercenary]

The Raiders aren't attacking enemy units.  You run them in, cause as much damage as possible, targetting important structures (town centers, altars, barracks, and such) first, or targetting the weakest structures (destroying four or five farms can cripple your enemy) first if heavy resistance is nearby.

The Spirit Walker has a very effective dispel spell, and they're invaluable against Undead that utilize large numbers of summoned units.  Of course, most people overlook the Spirit Walker.

Ah, but if your raiders were built for the sole purpose of attacking buildings, then it's a VERY big (2k+ gold, 30 supply) investment. Unless you are in high upkeep, you will have at most a 40 supply army, while your opponent could have spent that money (as I doubt you could destroy 2k worth of buildings) on upgrades + more units. And, no matter how bad a player's base is beat up, I'd rather have a useful 60 supply army against your 40 supply army.

As for blademaster harass - you are wrong. Stun spells do not throw you out of windwalk (They do throw night elf units out of shadowmeld). If a TC war stomps you, you take the damage, are stunned, but are still invisible. Dust of appearance is an effective counter, but what if your enemy did not get a quick shop? And what if they are human/UD? In any case, I'd prefer the blademaster to the Far seer by far when fighting Night Elves (One detonate won't kill your 75 mana wolves, AND burn hero mana).

As for spirit walkers, yes, they have an effective dispel spell, but you do not always have the resources to get both your heavy melee/air and your spirit walkers.

For undead, it's a good idea to get 3 heroes, with either Death Knight or Dread Lord as primary, the Lich as secondary, and the DK/Crypt Lord as tertiary. Of course, there is nothing wrong with taking Lich or Crypt lord as primary.

[Artega]

I guess the Blademaster's Walk ran out right after I Stomped him, then. All I know is that he died a horrible death, surrounded by grunts and a very angry Tauren.

The Raider strategy probably doesn't work in high-level (12+) games, but I beat a LV16 player mostly single-handedly with it. He was busily killing a newbie (some poor sad sack LV3 got crammed into our game, somehow), so I ran 12 Raiders in and decimated his base, and followed that up with a small force of Grunts backed by a Sea Witch and Tauren Chieftain. He abdicated ^_^

Raiders are also reasonably effective against Huntresses, making the Raider strategy doubly effective if you can use Ensnare and hit-and-run to good effect. The downside is that Raiders take extra damage from Normal attacks (what the Huntresses use), have few HP (610 vs. Huntresses' 600), and have relatively light armor. If you have very good micro, and use Ensnare effectively, you can bring down a large pack of Huntresses this way, but your best bet is to either tech to Tauren (beware Druids of the Talon using Cyclone) to use Wind Riders. Of course, any Night Elf player worth their salt will have at least a handful of Archers with them, regardless of their primary unit type.

[Swiss Mercenary]

However, the utility provided by 3-4 raiders is impressive - something to keep in mind, if resources are plentiful (or you are massing wind riders). Ensaring fleeing units provides you with free exp, and interrupting an ultimate such as Starfall never hurts. (If you didn't pick up the shadow hunter).

As for neutral heroes, I apreciate the Naga's usefullness, although I tend to pick the panda for his drunken haze, or the Pit Lord for his better-then-blizzard rain of fire. Although an Orc should always get a TC as a secondary hero, if he wasn't primary, the other heroes (except the Shadow Hunter) make for poor secondary hero choices, leaving room for neutral heroes to enter the game - their beauty is also the instant-hire from the tavern.

[Artega]

Yes, Hex is a lovely thing.

I've never been much of a fan of the Panda; Drunken Haze and Breath of Fire cost a lot of mana. His Ultimate is pretty cool, though. The Pit Lord's Ultimate is pretty great, but only if your opponent isn't smart enough to run it off into the center of his towers.

[Az3ar]

Ah, *slaps forhead* I forgot to give out my own account name... Here it is: Kikosemmek

Also, since we're into a hero arguement. I'll feel free to say that the Blademaster kicks everyone's asses :P

He is my favourite hero, and is always my first choice in an Orc game. Fast killing is good for a headstart to quickly start hunting creeps, giving your economy a good starting boost with the gold you get. Heres what I think the first heros of each race should be: Humans: MK; UD: Dreadlord or that big spider Nerubian dude, forgot his name; NE: Demon Hunter; Orc: Blademaster.

Like I said, my choices are normally based on the general need to creep hastily and efficiently, personally I prefer controlling the hard-on offense guys.

Archon: As a tip: Aggression is the name of the game. Attack whenever you feel you can do some damage. And always keep doing something, anything about the game. Keep your cursor busy. Theres always something you can do about your town/expansion/army/hero.

Personally, I hate static base defense. In fact, I dont believe in defense. I believe in recon, and then counter-attack. It is better to invest in a mobile army rather than in static base defense. An army can go about both defending and attacking, static defense just sits there at your base, and is not nearly as effective at defending as a full-capable army.

Sure, there are always exceptions, such as a big game where attacks can come from many places, unexpected attacks at that. But thats why I mentioned having a good recon. Good recon gives your enemy away, and a good, mobile army counters that enemy. Viola: static defense = bull#$%& :P