Classic Barb idea

[Raziel]

Hi,

I've been playing a lot of Classic recently and decided, what the heck, I wanted to try and make a Barb.

I believe that in Classic, weapon speed has no effect on Whirlwind. So you can use any weapon at all and whirl with equal effectiveness (in terms of hits).

Subsequently, I see a lot of Barbs whirling with Bonesnap, or rare Martel's. But I had an idea of my own.

How about Cleglaw's partial set?

I was thinking 2x Cleglaw's sword + Cleglaw's gloves. The partial set bonus of this is +max/clvl to Cleglaw's swords, and +ar/clvl from Cleglaw's gloves. The swords themselves come with 50% Deadly Strike. At high levels the swords can break 100 max damage, which, when combined with Deadly Strike, brings them up to Bonesnap-levels of damage.

Now, without the shield, the very best bonus of Cleglaw's is lost: 35% Crushing Blow. However, I believe this can be compensated somewhat through the use of Goblin Toe boots. I am also considering a Swordback Hold for Open Wounds (it's that or Boneflesh).

The question I have is this: am I better off going with dual swords? The bonus, in my mind, would be the freedom to use a shield or a second Cleglaw's (or something else). Or should I just use a big two-hander?

[Wyrm]

If I remember correctly, when WW'ing with two weapons, the weapons are alternated, not added together. I'm not 100% sure about that, though.

The only major problem with that build is that the swords are Long Swords, which have a pitiful min damage (4? I think), so even with a max damage well over 100, you're still probably not going to be dealing that much damage in Hell.

I am also considering a Swordback Hold

Isn't that the unique spike shield?

[Raziel]

SB is the barbed shield I think, with 50% chance of Open Wounds. A lot of barbs like it.

And yes, the minimum damage of a long sword is utterly pitiful :(

As for dual weapons.. I am fairly sure the hits are alternated, but if I remember rightly, dual wielding allows a Barb to get more hits while whirling against multiple (not single) monsters..??

[adeyke]

Swordback Hold is the unique spiked shield (it has the 50% OW). Lance Guard is the unique barbed shield.

Dual wielding equally-fast weapons will give you double the number of hits, if you're whirling through multiple opponents.

[Raziel]

But only multiple opponents, right Adeyke?

[adeyke]

Yes.

[Raziel]

Thanks.

So then, IMO it comes down to this:

Mace:
+ high minimum damage. (High damage, period.)
+ glove slot free
+ boot slot free
- must wear Boneflesh if OW is desired
+ Crushing blow on the weapon if it's Bonesnap.
- no shield

Cleglaws:
- poor minimum damage; high maximum not achieved until higher levels
- glove slot taken by Cleglaw's Pincers
- must wear Cleglaw's Shield, Goblin Toe or Rattlecage if CB is desired
+ 2x hits against packs when dual wielding
+ can wear shield versus single targets for resists, block or OW

Hmm. I think i'll try dual Clegs anyway just to be different ;) At the very least, i'm going to have fun :)

[neod]

for classic since the weapon speed does not matter I believe that you can use a slow and a fast weapon and have the same amount of hits. Like when I use an Executioner Sword and a Gull dagger the hits just alternate. Also I am thinking that you get the same amount of hits as a big two hander when dual wielding. Not 100% sure about that but in the high 90's. As for the cleglaw set up, there are certain few ppl that are trying the set to BvB. Some say that it is the best way to BvB. In classic of course.

My advise to you is if you are looking to make an unusual build go with the cleglaw and try it out. If you are goin to make a slaughter barb get yourself a maul or lance 200+ damage and go to town. Barbs are very easy in classic so you don't have to rely on your gear AS much.

Good Luck with your barb. They are fun and easy in classic!

-NeoD

Ps.
If you are on Us East SCNL and need some items let me know. I'll try to hook you up :)

[Raziel]

I'm east SCL actually, but thanks for the offer :)

I can see why Clegs would be really good in BvB - you can wear a Swordback Hold, and the pincers give slow's target and AR. Two varieties of cheese rolled into one, with a nice chance to hit to boot.

Okay so now my question is what build do I use.

I was originally thinking of the standard whirler.. 20 mastery, 20 whirlwind, 20 bo .. I think should would be a waste of time though. I was pondering pushing those points into something that will help me survive - perhaps some in stun, and some in warcry. Cleglaw's gloves give knockback, i'm thinking that KB + spammed Stun is a good way to keep single targets immobilized and helpless. Warcry maybe versus packs, and besides, the two synergize eachother.

Thoughts?

Initial thought: not enough skill points! I planned out the following:

20 mastery
20 whirlwind - a bunch of prereqs
20 bo - 2 prereq
1 bc
4 natural resist (+35%) - 1 prereq

It came to 74 points. With every skill quest done, i'd get this finished by level 62. That's not an easy feat for a classic char.

EDIT:

I've also been considering a 'safety' style build: 20 Warcry, 20 Stun, 20 BO. The problem is, if you're not wielding, there's little point in going with two Cleglaw's weapons - one would suffiice. The second problem is that without any Mastery, or Whirlwind, you aren't going to be doing very much damage anyway. Typically, i've never enjoyed builds where i'm very safe but can't kill anything!! :(

[Raziel]

I've decided to update this post with my findings.

I hit level 30 today. Wearing full Cleglaws. Holy @#^#$% Whirl is completely different in classic. I went from sucking at 29 to utterly OWNING at level 30.

The number of hits is absolutely incredible. Something like six or eight hits on a single monster sometimes. With knockback on Cleglaws its not uncommon for me to beat a monster back and keep on whirling through it, hitting it over and over again!

Cows became uber-easy. No questions asked. In normal they die in one whirl.

I whirled my way through Nightmare and, unthinkingly, killed Diablo who dropped, wait for it, Boneflesh!!! That's right, 25% chance of Open Wounds and 5% life leech on an armor! Woohooo! I also finally got a second Cleglaw's sword from Nightmare Infector of Souls. But now i'm stuck in Hell difficulty :( :( :(

I don't use the second Cleglaws yet. Why? Because I lack mana leech and Crushing Blow. I need full Cleglaws to provide both of those. So I just whirl with Cleglaws one handed. In most situations it is sufficient. (Against bosses, i'd be using full Clegs anyway, because there's no advantage to whirling two handed against a single target.)

So, once I get a manald heal, and a pair of Goblin Toes, i'll give dual Cleglaws a go. I did try it briefly in NM cows. It's even more hits, but since I lost the full set bonuses, I couldn't keep up in the mana leech dept, and the damage isn't yet high enough.

That really annoys me by the way: the damage per character level. It occurs to me, about 40 levels too late, that I'm simply not going to reach the uber high levels where Cleglaws gets up to 140 max. At best I can realistically expect level 60 or so, meaning that Clegs will probably do about 100 max damage. That's still alright when DS goes off.

The low minimum damage isn't hurting me as much as I thought because of the sheer number of hits granted by whirlwind. I guess it evens out in the end.

Mana is a big problem for my Barb. I only have enough for two whirls. If I don't leech on the first, I have to aim my second very carefully, and make SURE I go substantially through a leechable target, otherwise i'm not going to be making a third whirl. This makes Hell cows very difficult, as there are big leech penalties, meaning every whirl has to fuel the next one. Muck up a whirl, or don't get as many good hits, and its easy for me to find myself without mana in the middle of a huge pack 'o cows.

I have only maxed Sword Mastery. Still working on Whirlwind. BO is a distant third (part of the whole mana problem). Enjoying the build a great deal.

One final observation: my sword breaks ALL the time. Durability actually means something in classic. I actually have to go back to town to repair my weapon. Amazing.

To quote the mcdonalds ad: i'm lovin' it. Classic is fresh, new, and fun to me. It lacks all the ubercheese of expansion. I absolutely love it, it forces me to really stretch to make a good, effective charaacter. Oh and for some reason the Oblivion Knights in the Chaos Sanctuary don't IM nearly as often. I can whirl fairly safely.

Current gear:

Cleglaw's full set
Boneflesh
Rare hat with FHR and resists
Rare belt with FHR and resists
2x Cathan's seal ring (will probably change at least one to Manald)
Gorefoot (will change to Goblin Toe if I ever find it)

I think at this point my options are to change out my hat for an Undead Crown (+50% damage to Undead). That and Boneflesh should provide enough life leech to keep going a while. Then i'll swap both rings to Manald, and pray for a pair of Goblin toes.

Alternatively, I can wear some Sigon's: belt and boots, or belt and helm, for 10% life leech. Dual Manalds would definately be the way to go if I can squeeze in Sigon's. Problem is, my glove slot is taken by Cleglaws, my boot slot is reserved for Goblin toes, my shield slot goes to Cleglaws shield/sword, and my armor slot is taken by Boneflesh. I haven't got many places left over. Retaining some FHR would be nice.

Edit: My end-game gear is probably going to have to be Undead Crown and Bladebuckle. My resists will be awful but hey. With Undead Crown + Boneflesh + Bladebuckle, i'll have a good amount of FHR and leech.

I would love to find a Twitchthroe and Swordback Hold - together, the pair would max out my block. The problem is, if I go that route, I lose Open Wounds every time I go for dual Cleglaws. I really like the idea of dual Cleglaws vs packs.

So I really have two choices if I want Open Wounds: dual clegs and Boneflesh or single clegs and swordback + twitchthroe. The safest route might just be a 3 pdiamond tower shield + twitchthroe, but I haven't had any real hassle with elemental attackers.. yet. If I go single clegs, swordback and twitchthroe, I lose 5% life leech.

I think i'll end up sticking with dual clegs boneflesh UC and bladebuckle. It allows me to pull on Cleg's shield as required.

[myrdinn]

I want to give some precision about dualwielding in D2c.
When playing D2c you hit every 4 frame (= max speed) But only with ONE weapon (means 1 hit) even if you have two opponent.
Also, I'm not sure that the secondary weapon is used ???

[Raziel]

Hmm Adeyke said that two weapons result in double the number of hits against two or more opponents.

I'm certainly noting some oddities with my whirls. For example, if I whirl a boss, it's not unusual for me to hear six or seven hits as I whirl through him - that's a heck of a lot! I also have no problem whirling through huge crowds (10+ monsters) and killing just about everyone in a single pass.. in Nightmare difficulty at level 45!

So, you see, i'm not really sure if two Cleglaws would actually be an improvement. As I don't have an off-weapon source of CB, i'm yet to really give it a test. Perhaps i'll go to normal and run around with dual Clegs and see what happens.

The best "oddity" has to be that I was able to kill NM Hephaesto in a single whirl. I just kept knocking him back in a straight line and my whirl just went on and on and on through him until he died. Must have been 20 or so hits in a single whirl on a single monster. He just got owned.

I totally love "long" whirls in Classic. Yeah, I guess I should be doing it with a sickening damage lance, but I like the finesse of swords better.

[myrdinn]

Hum Adeyke is a very knowledgable person, your interrogation is legitimate, and yes this is true for LOD but not for D2c.

AFAIK I'm the one that have first discovered Whirlwind Attack Speed. I have given the complete dissasembled function at PK and before that at judgehype forum(Blizzard french Fan Site). I'm sure that classic WW only hit 1 time every 4 Frames.

I could give you link to the disassembled function if you wan't.

[Raziel]

I would appreciate that link. I don't think I can read assembler anymore though. I suck. I assume it's commented, though?

So basically dual wielding in D2C is utterly pointless? You don't hit any more often against single OR multiple opponents?

If that's the case.. woohooo! It actually simplifies things for me.

Edit: I think I found it... http://phrozenkeep.it-point.com/forum/view...assic+whirlwind

Code:

If we attack. We do 1 or 2 attacks
2 Attacks (with both weapon) only if
- you have 2 Weapons
- you are a player
- you play LOD and not D2Classic
- There are 2 targets
Otherwise only 1 attack.

That settles that, I guess. Woohoo!

Interestingly enough it taught me something I didn't know.. the "two hit" that is referred to seems to be like a double-hit, dealt simultaneously to two different opponents on each whirlwind code pass that triggers a hit attempt (expansion only, based on weapon speed). I find that to be absolutely fascinating. In other words you don't actually hit "more", you hit exactly the same number of times, it's just that each "hit" is actually a double-swing (not in the barbarian skill sense) if there are two targets available and you're dual wielding. Again, xpac only.

This helps me a great deal. I can toss out the spare cleglaws, and realign my desired equipment. Thank you VERY much!

[myrdinn]

I give you the english link
clicky

This is for 1.09. Of course I have done the same work for 1.10.
Feel free to ask question if you need

[Raziel]

Thanks for the link myrdinn. Your work is very well commented and I found it quite easy to understand dispite not knowing very much assembler anymore. Thanks for your fantastic work!

I guess dual wielding is the exclusive perview of the frenzy/double swing barbs.. where, unfortunately, speed matters. No wonder nobody played frenzybarbs back then.

[Pren]

Thanks for the link myrdinn.  Your work is very well commented and I found it quite easy to understand dispite not knowing very much assembler anymore.  Thanks for your fantastic work!

I guess dual wielding is the exclusive perview of the frenzy/double swing barbs.. where, unfortunately, speed matters.  No wonder nobody played frenzybarbs back then.

"Back then", frenzy and double swing completely ignored attack speed in all forms, so frenzy barbs switched to bash or berserk (which didn't deal magical damage.)

Up hill in the snow both ways on sunday.

edit: Sig removed because, wow, that's old.

[Raziel]

Does Frenzy/DSwing still ignore speed? I never checked..