Games with Intellectual Content

[Maitre]

-snip-
But I have to respectfully disagree with you when you bring up the things that you say broke the 4th wall in MGS-1. I'm not disputing the validity of your enjoyment or lack of it. But to me at least, those things that you say broke the 4th wall, and take away from the game, is the very thing (interactivity) that pushes and defines video games as a distinct medium. We can argue that an off, off broadway avant garde play can do the same thing for less money, or this guy's show.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Gallagher

-snip-

I understand the 4th wall break as a tool in narrative, but I think it was just out of place in MGS. Its always seemed to me like the 4th wall break was more of a comedic tool than a dramatic tool. The drama in MGS seemed to rely on your willingness to look at the game in its own universe where a 1-man infiltration unit can destroy 1) a tank in one on one ground combat, 2) a helicopter gunship in one on one combat on a roof top, and 3) a bipedal combat platform in one on one combat. Reminding you that you're holding a controler just made me think that the game said "okay, serious time is over."

Gallagher's act on the other hand depended on the audience reaction so the 4th wall was never established, ergo it could never really be broken. I saw Gallagher live once. It was well past his hayday, so it felt stale, but it was still amusing. And yes, I was sitting well outside the poncho zone.

[Hammerskjold]

I understand the 4th wall break as a tool in narrative, but I think it was just out of place in MGS. Its always seemed to me like the 4th wall break was more of a comedic tool than a dramatic tool. The drama in MGS seemed to rely on your willingness to look at the game in its own universe where a 1-man infiltration unit can destroy 1) a tank in one on one ground combat, 2) a helicopter gunship in one on one combat on a roof top, and 3) a bipedal combat platform in one on one combat. Reminding you that you're holding a controler just made me think that the game said "okay, serious time is over."

Then I think we might be talking about something that jars you out of the experience, and maybe not wall breaking as a technique. Some might say potay-toe poh-tatoe, or the only difference between the 2 is one is a failed attempt and the second is a successful one.

But in any case. For better of for worse the MGS series IMO, always had this kind of thing. Where we seem to differ is where we think it is. I don't mind at all the plugging unplugging \ memory card reading sequences because IMO it fits the characters involved and went beyond just a tech gimmick. Having said that, it probably won't have the same effect in other or later games because that kind of thing really can only work once for the wow effect. But it was a hell of an effect when I first experienced it.

As for things out of place that makes you go, 'okay, serious time is over.' I'd say for me it was not the technical sequences. More like some of the voice acting at parts. Or in MGS-4, or where someone is doing something that seems inconsistent with their character. Some are doing it for a very good reason and is revealed as the game story progresses. While some I suspect are done for the 'cool look at this' factor, which to me is far more jarring.

I saw Gallagher live once.

/amazed

I think I would've wanted the poncho zone seating though, but that might just be me.

[--Pete]

Hi,

I saw Gallagher live once. It was well past his hayday, so it felt stale, but it was still amusing.

Gallagher is brilliant and clever. Unfortunately, too clever for most of his audiences. He had the misfortune of coming up with a parody of the 'it slices, it dices' late night adds which involved smashing watermelons. The moronic majority only got the bit about watermelon bits flying about and that is all they want to see. Too bad.

Gallagher needs to talk to Ricky Nelson (Shirley MacLaine can mediate) about what path to take;)

--Pete

[Jester]

Well, I'm hoping they brought the original creators back and hit it out of the park. Hopefully it won't be like Deus Ex 2, or StarControl 3.

They didn't, although Ken Levine was supposedly heavily consulted. We'll see. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't.

But, I'm more worried about the Dune syndrome. Dune: Messiah, Children of Dune, God Emperor of Dune, etc... are all excellent science fiction novels, written by the same grandmaster who wrote the original. And yet, the original book is so much better than the sequels, that the possibilities it hints at are superior if you consider them as such, and ignore the parts Frank Herbert filled in afterwards. (I will not even speak of the recent heresy.)

I'm not sure the story of Rapture will get better with more elaboration. Remarkable as it was (and I am a huge fan) the plot barely survived the whole game without overstaying its welcome. I fear that "Bioshock 2" will be conceptually akin to Weird Al's brilliant "Gandhi 2". There is one very excellent story to tell, and when the story is told, there might not be any elegant way to spin it out into something else, and degenerate into a slight self-parody.

-Jester

[Hammerskjold]

They didn't, although Ken Levine was supposedly heavily consulted. We'll see. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't.

But, I'm more worried about the Dune syndrome. Dune: Messiah, Children of Dune, God Emperor of Dune, etc... are all excellent science fiction novels, written by the same grandmaster who wrote the original. And yet, the original book is so much better than the sequels, that the possibilities it hints at are superior if you consider them as such, and ignore the parts Frank Herbert filled in afterwards. (I will not even speak of the recent heresy.)

Hmm, that's a good albeit depressing point.

[Rhydderch Hael]

... Its always seemed to me like the 4th wall break was more of a comedic tool than a dramatic tool. ...Gallagher's act on the other hand depended on the audience reaction so the 4th wall was never established, ergo it could never really be broken. I saw Gallagher live once. It was well past his hayday, so it felt stale, but it was still amusing. And yes, I was sitting well outside the poncho zone.

On the matters of the 4th wall, Gallagher, and comedic reaction, one of the funniest moments I ever experienced playing a video game occurred during a cutscene in Vampire, the Masquerade: Bloodlines. Which did involve a character breaking the 4th wall to deliver the line "...those of you in the first few rows— will get wet!"

He wasn't talking about watermelons... :shuriken:

[Maitre]

/amazed

I think I would've wanted the poncho zone seating though, but that might just be me.

and @ Pete:

I just turned 30, so I'm not that old: I saw Gallagher in the early 90s, which is why (I suspect) it felt stale. To Pete's point about getting stuck with a command act: I could have taken or left the watermelon bit, which he closed with (understandable as the audience was lost halfway through, and the poncho zone seating was only worth it for this 5-7 minute bit). The rest of the performance was just kind of off point: when a topical comic goes off point, he's lost what the political parties refer to as their "base," and we all know that once your base are belong to us, you have no chance to survive make your time.

[I just voluntarily, automatically lost for the sake of "all your base?" I must be an idiot.]
How high-minded that I'm tipping my cap to the audience in a discussion of the fourth wall???
[cue Chapman: "and don't talk to the audience!" There I've gone and lost again]
It's all very meta... Forum posts: the next step in high-minded social commentary (though it will be short-lived as tweeting will replace forum posts within 6 months).

PS. Honestly, I've just gotten to that point in sleep deprivation where free association becomes more like loose association, just before you get to dissociation, and at the moment, I'm not inclined toward self critique.

[Hammerskjold]

[I just voluntarily, automatically lost for the sake of "all your base?" I must be an idiot.]
How high-minded that I'm tipping my cap to the audience in a discussion of the fourth wall???
[cue Chapman: "and don't talk to the audience!" There I've gone and lost again]

First rule of fourth wall club, do NOT talk about fourth wall.

Fourth rule of fourth wall club, do not break the fourth wall. Use the door.

And there's always room for all your, mine, and everyones base. What we don't have enough of is time, so we best make it because it's running out. Also. Cats.

[[wcip]Angel]

Did we talk about Ico and Shadow of the Colossus yet?

Besides the impressive scope of the game's artwork, I was impressively underwhelmed by Shadow of the Colossus. Fighting these monoliths was slightly fun, but the game felt *very* repetitive. Also, there was little to no story. The game's gameplay revolved around 2 concepts: Explore the world and kill a colossus. Rinse and repeat. There was nothing else to it. I was very disappointed.

[--Pete]

Hi,

What we don't have enough of is time, so we best make it because it's running out. Also. Cats.

But, given the chance, the cats will take care of making more cats -- so that just leaves time.

--Pete

[Jester]

But, given the chance, the cats will take care of making more cats -- so that just leaves time.

Does it make any difference that Cats is now and forever?

-Jester

[--Pete]

Hi,

Does it make any difference that Cats is now and forever?

Nope, but I prefer the broadway version with the short Growltiger.

--Pete

[Hammerskjold]

Hi,
But, given the chance, the cats will take care of making more cats -- so that just leaves time.

--Pete

Looking at what I originally wrote, I kinda have to fess up here. It wasn't intended to mean that we are running out of cats, though looking at it now and the responses it could be read that way.

It started with Maitre throwing down the 'All Your Base' meme. Along with one of the (Monty) Python cast.

In an attempt to be clever by half, I also worked in an All Your Base reference, in that the character who says the actual line 'All Your Base..' is named CATS. But I phrased it in a Palinesque way. Again in a botched attempt of cleverosity, I went with the Sarah variety instead of the Michael variety, who is an actual member of the Pythons. Michael Palin that is.

Which is funny in a way (though maybe not humorous) since 'All Your Base' is somewhat (in)famous for humour from a somewhat bizarre translation and possible linguistic misinterpretation.

Now that the Schroedingers cat is out of the box, the humour may or may not be dead. Or both alive and dead. I'm not sure actually, more disturbing is why hasn't anyone called the SPCA on this Schroedinger fellow?!

Also.* Cats and t3h innernets seems to be a weird yet somehow compatible pairing phenomenon, like chocolate and peanut butter. So should the impossible even occur, ie: we are running out of cats, their on-line presence at least seems to be secure.

*Palinesque speech tic again.

In any case, maybe I should just let a picture speak instead. And again I should lay the blame for any mishap in communication squarely where it belongs. It's all Maitre's fault.:P

[kandrathe]

Angel' date='May 26 2009, 07:12 AM' post='167625']Besides the impressive scope of the game's artwork, I was impressively underwhelmed by Shadow of the Colossus.

I agree. It was almost like the creators of it made some beautiful frames, then had to think of a "game" in order show it off. Only intellectual in the aesthetic sense, but not at all in the "game thery" sense.

[Maitre]

-- snip --
Now that the Schroedingers cat is out of the box, the humour may or may not be dead. Or both alive and dead. I'm not sure actually, more disturbing is why hasn't anyone called the SPCA on this Schroedinger fellow?!

--snip--

In any case, maybe I should just let a picture speak instead. And again I should lay the blame for any mishap in communication squarely where it belongs. It's all Maitre's fault.

Guilty as charged. Speaking of observation and probability, actual beers FTW.

[Nastie_Bowie]

The mark of a truly great intellectual activity!

-Jester

Or, too much alcohol.

:lol:

[Merlinios]

Schroedingers cat

Can't resist an opportunity to drop some (even halfway relevant)
Dresden Codak on people who will actually appreciate it.

--me

edit: quote fail