Games with Intellectual Content

[Lissa]

As to intellectual games: Diplomacy, the board game.

Occhi

I've seen fist fights break out over that game.

[Jester]

I've seen fist fights break out over that game.

The mark of a truly great intellectual activity!

-Jester

[Kevin]

And to quote others, Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri kept me up for many a night

Seeing the reactions to Alpha Centauri in this thread surprised me. I had heard so much negative about it from Civ fans and in a few reviews that I never bothered to try it. I may have to give it look see now.

[Jester]

Seeing the reactions to Alpha Centauri in this thread surprised me. I had heard so much negative about it from Civ fans and in a few reviews that I never bothered to try it. I may have to give it look see now.

Alpha Centauri is a near-perfect game, with a gigantic, glaring flaw that you could drive a truck through: the AI. If all you're looking for is a single-player strategy game that will keep you challenged for years to come, you can safely give SMAC a pass, it's just not going to cut it. Once you know the ropes, you can trounce the computer on any settings you like.

In almost every other respect, the game is amazing. Production values are incredibly high. The 'world' they create is original and coherent, yet also a clear homage to countless science-fiction authors: Frank Herbert, Robert Heinlein, Kim Stanley Robinson, Isaac Asimov... The tech tree is like a compendium of ideas about the future of technology and society. It's worth playing through the game at least once just to listen to all the tech quotes and see all the cutscenes, even if you don't give a fig about the gameplay. The voice acting is top-notch. The factions are gorgeously crafted to represent different 'utopian' ideas of society: Laissez Faire, Communism, Environmentalism, Militarism, Democracy, Fundamentalism and Science-based, each with faction leaders who make coherent and memorable cases for their beliefs. The 'build your society' options are just phenomenal, from terraforming to social engineering, at a level that makes Civ 3 look like tic-tac-toe. The multiplayer balance is also quite remarkable, and balanced in very nuanced and interesting ways. Some of the best aspects of Civ 4 are taken straight from SMAC, and IMO, dumbed down a little. Just an absolute masterpiece, in my opinion.

But, then, there's the AI problem, and there's no getting around that. YMMV.

-Jester

[Skandranon]

Alpha Centauri is a near-perfect game, with a gigantic, glaring flaw that you could drive a truck through: the AI. If all you're looking for is a single-player strategy game that will keep you challenged for years to come, you can safely give SMAC a pass, it's just not going to cut it. Once you know the ropes, you can trounce the computer on any settings you like.

SMAC was just a game that was too advanced for the AI-writing capability of the time and for several years thereafter. Civ3 was a great example of this; they couldn't write a decent AI, so they massively slashed down the options available to the player and hard capped various mechanics at both ends to force the AI into competitiveness.

That said, it doesn't mean it isn't going to keep you challenged. I approached it sort of like Diablo: yeah, the base game is not really all that hard, but you can come up with a lot of challenges to make it interesting.

Seconding recommendations on Diplomacy and PS:T, although Diplomacy is hard to get into. You need to play with six other people to get the real experience, and play-by-e-mail games are slow and typically die a few turns in when half the players lose interest (of course, face-to-face games rarely end either considering how long it takes). I know there's a computer game, but I really don't see Diplomacy as a game a computer can play well at all.

[kandrathe]

We are doomed to be hunted all our lives, doomed to eventually succumb, doomed to search for brains for all eternity (or until somebody decapitates us).

{hummed to a popular Cranberries tune} For your head, what's in your head, they're fighting. Hey, hey, hey, hey, oh, yum, yum, yum, yum...

Speaking of Zombies... Has anyone played Plants vs. Zombies?

[Chesspiece_face]

Probably the easiest one to call, but as it's not been mentioned:

ICO

I've gotta give props to any game which can produce something like that on the GameFaqs forums.

Shadow of the Colossus would be the second obvious as it, although not a sequel, is the follow-up to ICO.

[[wcip]Angel]

Speaking of Gamefaqs, the site hosts a rather marvellous guide (a type of literary analysis) on Silent Hill II, written by a user called President Evil.

When I first played the game in 2001, I was mightly impressed with its haunting atmosphere, chilling ambience and its downright dark and grim storyline. I was however, totally floored when I read that analysis on Gamefaqs. Both apparent and hidden meanings behind the game's characters, setting, theme and message were bound together in a cohesive and intelligible explanation of what this game was all about.

Very little is said explicitly in the game, but if you manage to piece together the numerous hints and speculations, you are left with a vivid and rich narrative which, to me, is unrivalled in video games. Final Fantasy VII was another game which also played with the gamer's sense and expectations of identity (who is Cloud?) similar to that of Silent Hill II, but the latter was a holehearted test of one's ability to observe, analyse and interpret. Whenever I think of video games as art, Silent Hill II is always the first game that comes to mind.

[Maitre]

Hi,
I believe what Maitre was saying is that a book or a movie puts you in the position of a spectator. The author has the freedom to teach and preach, and if he does it well enough, you'll at least listen to what he has to say. A game should put you in a different position, that of a participant. All too often if the author of the game has a message to impart, you no longer have the freedom to participate (or, at least not on a level significantly beyond the participation of turning pages). At the least, your choices are greatly limited (e.g., SimCity where public transportation and nuclear power are the only viable alternatives).

So, the question is whether it is possible to simultaneously give the player a true freedom to participate and still impart something beyond game-play. And that is a poorly formed question, I think. Some people will learn something from the most mindless game and others will learn nothing from anything.

--Pete

Sorry to jump in the middle from the end, but I think Pete stated it better than I did. I don't intend to discount the possiblity that games present a ne medium for intelectual content, I'm just doubting that the medium is mature enough at this point that anything meaningful has come from it.

I think I was really trying to make 2 points, one was the above, and the second was along the lines of Pete's second paragraph. When reviewing a book or movie as a spectator you have a better opportunity to evaluate the message and the level of success in its delivery. When playing as the protagonist in a linear story, are you more focussed on the game's message, or the current fetch quest? I'm not smart enough to do both at the same time, and so I'd prefer to consume my intelectual content as an observer.

[Jester]

Sorry to jump in the middle from the end, but I think Pete stated it better than I did. I don't intend to discount the possiblity that games present a ne medium for intelectual content, I'm just doubting that the medium is mature enough at this point that anything meaningful has come from it.

I think I was really trying to make 2 points, one was the above, and the second was along the lines of Pete's second paragraph. When reviewing a book or movie as a spectator you have a better opportunity to evaluate the message and the level of success in its delivery. When playing as the protagonist in a linear story, are you more focussed on the game's message, or the current fetch quest? I'm not smart enough to do both at the same time, and so I'd prefer to consume my intelectual content as an observer.

What causes a medium to "mature" except people using that medium pushing against the boundaries of what's been done? It's not like media just suddenly grow old, and become more than they used to be. That's part of why I made this thread, to talk about the games we've liked that went a little farther than just "There is a bad man in the dark place! Kill him and I will give you a reward! Shiny shiny thing!" I think such games exist, and I gave some of my top contenders. Certainly there is no video game "Citizen Kane" yet.

For an interesting take on the "fetch quest" issue, Adam Cadre's short-but-neat 9:05 is worth a look. It doesn't take more than 15 minutes or so to play. (That link should go straight to an in-browser version.)

I will say that non-commercial genres, like interactive fiction and to some extent graphical adventures have pushed harder against these boundaries than commercial games have. People do like fetch quests neat, no olive. The success of WoW, where you do just about any idiot thing for 13 gold and a handful of rep, is evidence enough of that.

-Jester

[Maitre]

What causes a medium to "mature" except people using that medium pushing against the boundaries of what's been done? It's not like media just suddenly grow old, and become more than they used to be. That's part of why I made this thread, to talk about the games we've liked that went a little farther than just "There is a bad man in the dark place! Kill him and I will give you a reward! Shiny shiny thing!" I think such games exist, and I gave some of my top contenders. Certainly there is no video game "Citizen Kane" yet.

For an interesting take on the "fetch quest" issue, Adam Cadre's short-but-neat 9:05 is worth a look. It doesn't take more than 15 minutes or so to play. (That link should go straight to an in-browser version.)

I will say that non-commercial genres, like interactive fiction and to some extent graphical adventures have pushed harder against these boundaries than commercial games have. People do like fetch quests neat, no olive. The success of WoW, where you do just about any idiot thing for 13 gold and a handful of rep, is evidence enough of that.

-Jester

I agree that work is required to develop a "mature" commentary delivery platform, I'm just thinking along the lines that the Venn diagram showing those who play games and those who are intersted in high minded social or political commentary looks more like a pair of eyes than the olympic rings, but that's another issue. And don't get me wrong, I don't mind the ocasional [sp?] fetch quest, straight up with a twist (I did come to this site originally looking for DiabloII strat), I just don't want it to be sandwitched between cutscenes about nuclear proliferation and global instability.

[kandrathe]

I agree that work is required to develop a "mature" commentary delivery platform...

I've always been partial to non-linear software, and open environments (e.g. Todd Howard's work). From my old D&D days, I prefer "alignment" to be sensed rather than chosen, although, it is often difficult for software to determine player intent. I think linear games biggest detractor is that they generate less interest in replay (now I'll try that all over with a Brute rather than a Wizard). In RPG's, if you are playing a pre-defined character (e.g. Gordon Freeman) then the attitudes expressed can be scripted (although, it would be best to make them somewhat non-controversial to appeal to the largest audience). If you are allowed to develop the character, then the game designer should provide story paths for multiple directions of character development.

Now, granted I last worked on this kind of software back in the 80's, but the problem I always ran into while developing software simulations was the available clock cycles for computing the various actors behaviors. You start by thinking about display frequency, and the time it takes to render the environment and project it to a 2D image (screen, from the eye POV). Then, each actor in the environment has a set of behaviors, and based on values, thresholds, and what it senses in its local environment, it reacts and exhibits a behavior. As you can see, the more sophisticated you make each actor, and the size of the environment can quickly exponentially overwhelm the largest processors. You can program around some of it by only calculating in real time those actors within a certain range of the protagonist, and for all the others out of range, add them to a less frequently processed queue. But, then sometimes things like fast travel can throw a wrench into the works, and you need to develop different rules for when the protagonist is mounted and moving quickly.

What I see in modern games, like Diablo III, or Fable II is not any huge strides forward in the game's intelligence or simulation complexity, but more effort spent in rendering a more realistic and pretty environment. I think the most interesting new genre I've seen lately have been in the "stealth" type games (e.g. Ghost Recon, Thief) where the objective is not so much hack & slash, or magic blast, but to figure out how to move through the environment to accomplish a goal without being sensed. The other problem I've seen is the adaptation of physics engines, or adding pseudo physics to the game environment (e.g. I find Guild Wars, or Dungeon Siege frustrating in that my character seems to be in 3D, but still bound to the 2D surface).

On my short list of games to tryout are; Left 4 Dead, and Fallout 3, and The Last Remnant.

[Jester]

I agree that work is required to develop a "mature" commentary delivery platform, I'm just thinking along the lines that the Venn diagram showing those who play games and those who are intersted in high minded social or political commentary looks more like a pair of eyes than the olympic rings, but that's another issue. And don't get me wrong, I don't mind the ocasional [sp?] fetch quest, straight up with a twist (I did come to this site originally looking for DiabloII strat), I just don't want it to be sandwitched between cutscenes about nuclear proliferation and global instability.

Why was Bioshock so popular, then? Sure, it was a pretty cool horror-FPS game, but there are lots of those. What set it apart was a unique world design soaked in Objectivist philosophy. Playing Bioshock is no substitute for reading Atlas Shrugged. (If only because people usually manage to make it through the whole of Bioshock without terminal boredom setting in.) But it was a very popular game that engaged directly with "high-minded" philosophizing. Do you think its popularity had nothing to do with that?

You're entitled to your own preferences, of course, and obviously yours are directed elsewhere. I myself am a deeply addicted gamer who loves a game that tries to interact with more serious ideas. So, the sets meet in my person, if nowhere else.

If it's done too clumsily, it's pretentious, but that's a question of the skill of execution. Books, movies, plays, art and music all suffer from the same potential problem, but manage to get around it, at least sometimes.

-Jester

[--Pete]

Hi,

. . . the Venn diagram showing those who play games and those who are intersted in high minded social or political commentary looks more like a pair of eyes than the olympic rings, . . .

There clearly is a non-null intersect, and the name of that set is the Lounge:)

--Pete

[kandrathe]

Do you think its popularity had nothing to do with that?

"Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?" -- Andrew Ryan

I think the game is just cool. But you already knew that.

[Hammerskjold]

...I just don't want it to be sandwitched between cutscenes about nuclear proliferation and global instability.

Well if we're talking specifically about MGS-1 and the MGS series in general, yes it is a common complaint I've often heard. And at some points of the games especially Kojima's last MGS game, I'd even agree with you. The criticism goes like, 'we get it Hideo, you want to make a film. Why not just make the damn film instead of cramming it between my video game?! Too much bla bla bla, not enough BLAM BLAM BLAM!.'

But I have to respectfully disagree with you when you bring up the things that you say broke the 4th wall in MGS-1. I'm not disputing the validity of your enjoyment or lack of it. But to me at least, those things that you say broke the 4th wall, and take away from the game, is the very thing (interactivity) that pushes and defines video games as a distinct medium. We can argue that an off, off broadway avant garde play can do the same thing for less money, or this guy's show.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Gallagher

So I guess if we're going the stickler route, I'll go with electronically interactive. Beyond just pushing Play and Stop and F-Forward. And with no need for rain gear against stray watermelon juice. Though there's always the possibility of Nintendo's virtual Wii Gallagher I guess.

In the longer and wider view though, to sorta repeat what Jester said if I understand it right. Breaking the 4th wall is simply another tool in the box. Plenty of books and movies has used it to varying degrees of success. And to me using it or not using it is not as important as knowing when to do so, and doing it well.

Also. Bioshock 2 is coming soon last I heard. And it addresses the one thing the first did not have. (Unless I missed it, I did only play it a friends house.) Going outside Rapture. As in the ocean. The big sea. The big blue. The wet...uh..waters. BIOSHOCK 2!!111

[Jester]

Also. Bioshock 2 is coming soon last I heard. And it addresses the one thing the first did not have. (Unless I missed it, I did only play it a friends house.) Going outside Rapture. As in the ocean. The big sea. The big blue. The wet...uh..waters. BIOSHOCK 2!!111

Rapture may well be the most interesting setting ever to be featured in a popular video game. The bottom of the ocean is almost the definition of 'generic environment with nothing in it'.

Not that I'm not excited for Bioshock 2, although I fear that, like most sequels, it will diminish the original by association. But getting to leave grand, tragic, ruined Rapture for sand 'n water is not something that really thrills me.

Plus, no audio diaries in Davy Jones' Locker. At least, there really shouldn't be. :huh:

-Jester

[Hammerskjold]

Rapture may well be the most interesting setting ever to be featured in a popular video game. The bottom of the ocean is almost the definition of 'generic environment with nothing in it'.

It will depend on how they're going to do it I guess, since there's not enough explicit info to go on from the trailers I've seen. I'd like to think of it as similar to how space has been handled. The most visually boring one would be just a dark coloured void. Next maybe throw some blinking blinkety stars. Still kinda ho-hum really. The addition of a few planets may help, but overall still pretty boring looking if we're looking for visual impact. We're not talking about a sim that needs to be 100% accurate after all.

But then what if they do this instead for space, same sort of visual idea but for the ocean instead?



That's the direction I'm hoping they're going with. Then again I might just be a deep sea nut. Though I wouldn't worry too much about the lack of Rapture exploration. If I read the marketroids speak correctly, they said that what we saw of Rapture in the first game, is still not much compared to the actual size of Rapture in their game universe. (read: there's a lot of potential for franchise gold in the underwater complex of Rapture.)

Not that I'm not excited for Bioshock 2, although I fear that, like most sequels, it will diminish the original by association.

Well, I'm hoping they brought the original creators back and hit it out of the park. Hopefully it won't be like Deus Ex 2, or StarControl 3.

[kandrathe]

Rapture may well be the most interesting setting ever to be featured in a popular video game. The bottom of the ocean is almost the definition of 'generic environment with nothing in it'.

It also makes one of the most believable reasons for "why you can't go outside".

That's the direction I'm hoping they're going with. Then again I might just be a deep sea nut.

I kind of like the art deco meets captain Nemo meets Riven theme, then add the FPS -- come screaming from the darkness whacko zombies and the unfolding psycho drama of figuring out where, what, who, and why you are there. Bioshock also generated that edge of madness feeling I had in "American McGee's Alice".

I also can accept the tactic of gently nudging you in the correct direction by flooding/destroying the places you have completed, although that leads to that sense of linear plot achievement we had discussed earlier. It is an often used vehicle for limiting a players options and sense of confusion, and for programmers not to have to worry about mixing late game powers with early game levels without an incongruous limitation (e.g. you can only fly in outland, you cannot fly in Mournhold, the Armageddon spell does not work where you need it the most).

I think the "leaving Rapture" idea would be fine and I suspect it will either be limited, like leaving the airlocks in Doom3, or the typical plot device of getting knocked out and waking up "somewhere else". Of course, then when you have achieved the goals of "somewhere else" you will somehow find yourself back in Rapture, or maybe another "somewhere else".

The video game I would love to make/play would be a MMORPG based on Piers Anthony's Apprentice Adept series where you can slip from the fantasy/magic realm into the technology/science realm, and powers and skills in one world translate into comparable ones in the other.

Edit: I think there might be other fiction series that would be interesting to move into 3D RPG universes such as Larry Niven's "Ringworld", Frank Herbert's "Dune" or Robert A. Heinlein's "The Lives of Lazarus Long".

[kandrathe]

Did we talk about Ico and Shadow of the Colossus yet?