Cheating ethics

[vmxa]

Single Player.  Fire Enchanted.  Fixed on the realms.  Play the game as designed?  Pff.

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Sorry for the thread jack here, but I am interested in the crack about fire enhanced monsters.

I have run into a few level bosses that are FE and are able to kill high level characters in one shot.

Monsters that could not even kill my character and are nearly dead, while I am at full health, kill me instantly. I have only run into it in NM and Hell. In fact one a few times in NM.

All were FE.

[FoxBat]

Single Player.  Fire Enchanted.  Fixed on the realms.  Play the game as designed?  Pff.
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There's nothing absolutely logical about an ethical decision to cheat or not. Indeed we would be in quite a bit of trouble if Blizzard's work had to be construed as logical. :rolleyes: Nonetheless changing the rules of the game without other co-player's consent is going to have an effect on everyone involved, an undesirable effect IMO.

Of course that kind of explaination isn't going to fit with folks who would tolerate PKing over cheating, so I guess we are stuck with broken Blizzard logic here. But that only needs to go as far as the moderator's gavel.

[lfd]

Bah!  They list attributes for a reason.  Park 'em... dodge 'em... deal with it.
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Don't shout at me; I'm very, very strictly anti-cheat. However, some of the snideyness shown by people who've posted on this thread really grates.

My point was that "if you can't play the game as it is designed, then you shouldn't play" is riddled with problems, not least of which is that it excludes anyone who plays mods from playing "fairly".

[lfd]

Sorry for the thread jack here, but I am interested in the crack about fire enhanced monsters.[right][snapback]57887[/snapback][/right]

It's bugged; there're plenty of threads on the issue both here and the amazon basin. To summarise, in single player FE explosion damage can be very high in nightmare and hell, and a fire enchanted ancient can kill you instantly from a distance. Putting an FE monster into hit recovery can also be dangerous.

[Archon_Wing]

Well, honestly I never really bought the "play the game as it was meant to be played." Unless you designed the game, you have no idea on how Blizzard wanted it.

Maphack uses an external program to modify actual gameplay. There is no legitmate reason to use maphack. The game being too hard is not an excuse. :) I could say that items are too hard to pick up because it gets laggy, so it's ok to use pickit. Seriously, it's not my fault it lags! Or that items are too hard to find, so I'll start running bots. Really, Blizzard's drop system is really bad.

Running the game from a cd image doesn't affect gameplay at all.

I'd like to note that the Lounge Community does not condone cheating online. Not all 3rd party programs are cheats. Diffrence is that you are playing with other people, and it could somehow affect them. It wouldn't be fair to give yourself an advantage over people for your own convience.

Oh and btw, almost all my real life friends who play Diablo 2 cheat. I'm still friends with them, but I don't play d2 anymore. ;) I certainly won't end friendships over game ethics, but I just won't play with them.

Seriously, if you're going to cheat, then whatever. No point justifying what you do. That soda isn't good for me, but I'll drink it anyways without explanation.

[ShadowHM]

Don't shout at me; I'm very, very strictly anti-cheat.  However, some of the snideyness shown by people who've posted on this thread really grates.

My point was that "if you can't play the game as it is designed, then you shouldn't play" is riddled with problems, not least of which is that it excludes anyone who plays mods from playing "fairly".
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Hi

Since it was my "snideyness" (sic) that was bothering you, please go back and re-read my post.

This is not a hard game. Use of good tactics and effective skill placement is all that is needed, hence my suggestion that some reading in that area would be useful. Making the game easier by adding the likes of Maphack is not something I can admire in the least. If you think it is snide to say so, then so be it.

It may well have been a poor choice of words on my part, when I said "if you cannot play the game as designed". I meant that there is no excuse for making it easier that I can accept.

I cannot discuss the playing of mods for D2, as I have not played any. But my impression is that they are rather definitely not structured to make it easier. And the playing of mods is not what this thread was about, anyway.

You may have been well-intentioned in your intervention in this thread. But my opinion is that it was mis-placed.

[FoxBat]

I cannot discuss the playing of mods for D2, as I have not played any.  But my impression is that they are rather definitely not structured to make it easier.
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Well, I guess that would stem from not having played any mods, for example Nobbie's "Classic Mod" and the rather long thread for it here.

[lfd]

Since it was my "snideyness"  (sic) that was bothering you, please go back and re-read my post.

It wasn't, or I would've said "ShadowHM's snideyness" (or superciliousness, if you'd prefer an actual word). There were (as happens occasionally) several self-righteous posts jumping on the original author, who I believe was writing in good faith; yes, he should've known that this was Not The Forum He Was Looking For, but all that was really required was a poke towards the FAQs and Etiquette links. He also had a valid question that *wasn't* maphack-related.

This is not a hard game.  Use of good tactics and effective skill placement is all that is needed

...exactly. It's as hard as one chooses to make it; certainly there's "effective" skill placement, such as optimum hammerdin builds and the like, that make it very easy. That doesn't necessarily make it fun, though. Making the game as challenging as you like such that you still derive fun from it is the key.

Making the game easier by adding the likes of Maphack is not something I can admire in the least.  If you think it is snide to say so, then so be it.

I didn't, and I don't admire Maphack users. In the 1.09 days when I was unaware of the basin, I left a great many public games as soon as it became obvious people were running straight for the stairs.

I meant that there is no excuse for making it easier that I can accept.

I don't think anybody was asking you to accept it.

And the playing of mods is not what this thread was about, anyway.

It wasn't about maphack, either ;-)

You may have been well-intentioned in your intervention in this thread.  But my opinion is that it was mis-placed.

You know what people say about opinions. ;-)

Edit: speling

[whathuh]

Well, honestly I never really bought the "play the game as it was meant to be played." Unless you designed the game, you have no idea on how Blizzard wanted it.

Maphack uses an external program to modify actual gameplay.  There is no legitmate reason to use maphack.  The game being too hard is not an excuse. :) I could say that items are too hard to pick up because it gets laggy, so it's ok to use pickit. Seriously, it's not my fault it lags! Or that items are too hard to find, so I'll start running bots.  Really, Blizzard's drop system is really bad.

Running the game from a cd image doesn't affect gameplay at all.

I'd like to note that the Lounge Community does not condone cheating online. Not all 3rd party programs are cheats. Diffrence is that you are playing with other people, and it could somehow affect them. It wouldn't be fair to give yourself an advantage over people for your own convience.

Oh and btw,  almost  all my real life friends who play Diablo 2 cheat. I'm still friends with them, but I don't play d2 anymore. ;) I certainly won't end friendships over game ethics, but I just won't play with them.

Seriously, if you're going to cheat, then whatever. No point justifying what you do. That soda isn't good for me, but I'll drink it anyways without explanation.
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Thanks for your wonderful input and lack of getting mad over a sticky topic which in my case wasn't covered in any other topic. If it was, its waaay far back in the forums and I dislike bringing up old topics since they get too long like this one is about to.

This is not a hard game. Use of good tactics and effective skill placement is all that is needed, hence my suggestion that some reading in that area would be useful. Making the game easier by adding the likes of Maphack is not something I can admire in the least.

It is a hard game. Use of good tactics are effective and skill placement is effective, but in my dad's case it doesn't. He's a picky player and not at all good (he looks down at the keyboard to see his finger on 1 and then presses 1 and then dies because he took too long to drink the potion). Maybe its all the stress from his job or something, but he isnt all that great at d2, making him repeat old habits. Its no fun to him if he keeps dying to the same old monsters in hell, so its maphack or bust for him, which I think is legitimate to make up for his lack of skill.

I on the other hand enjoy a challenge. For example, I just got back into Baldur's Gate 2: TOB. I installed the tactics and ascension mods from weidu creating the hardest game I've ever played. Seriously, one of the first fights is between you and a group of 6 people all of which are 3 levels higher than you, and you start out with generic crap. Try killing duriel with only a cap and a gold short sword at level 12, thats about what happens to you if you take em all on at once.

I dislike maphack, I dislike pickit, I dislike botting, as long as they are on the realms. I just wanted to know mainly if d2loader online was okay since I lost the cd and if a hack to find item levels on items was okay. The first is, and the second isn't. My questions are answered, I think this post has been going on too long.

[vmxa]

Tell you dad to try some TBS games, then reflexs and reaction are not a factor.

BTW I am 58.

[whathuh]

Tell you dad to try some TBS games, then reflexs and reaction are not a factor.

BTW I am 58.
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I'm not saying old people are slow, I just think he's not all that great at real time strategy games (he goes all bcs/carriers in starcraft and can't play zerg). I don't think he enjoys the turn base games all that much. While he was the biggest geek growing up, he had no experience with D&D or things like that. I try my best to influence him into different games, but he seems to be an old dog.

[Archon_Wing]

Don't tell me he cheats in Starcraft against other people too! I'd have to bonk you guys with a frying pan or something. :)

Trust me. D2 does not require fast reflexes. All you need to do is learn what items and skills you need and adapt accordingly to the monsters. There's some reflexes, but unless you're playing hardcore it's not that big of a deal. Are you sure you just aren't going to fast. Why not just go back to easier levels and do some magic finding. You can find yourself some decent things in late nightmare before you try hell again.

Starcraft requires some speed, but against your typical b.net denizen, you can go far if you actualy know how to play. It takes me about two seconds to realize my lurkers are all dead, but that doesn't stop me from winning. :D Focus >> speed
\
Case in point, I went over to my friend's house and played Starcraft there. His mouse was broken (Yes, he broke his mouse :() so we had to use some crappy ancient backup mouse. The mouse was terrible; I had to forcefully push it for it to move. I was lucky if I could get the cursor within half a screen of where I really wanted to. That was really painful, but I joined a team game and still won with just a little help from my allies. :) Ok, I don't play Zerg. *Runs*

[Minionman]

What types of games do you guys play?

Edit: like playing, maybe people can suggest some.

[vmxa]

Well carriers are strong, but come a bit late. I have not played Starcraft in some time. I really loved that game and of course Warcraft (zug zug).

How about something like Might and Magic VI? It is real time, but combat can be done in turn base, so you can take your time.

If tbs is out you lose so many great games, HOMM, Civ, Moo. Does he like RTS?

BTW I did not take it that you were saying anything about ones age. I only mention mine to show I have some understanding of not being young. Slowed reflexes, reduced vision and all of the other factors. :D

[Occhidiangela]

A whole lotta hot air, which received a few bright, and a few not so bright, follow ons.[right][snapback]57725[/snapback][/right]

This thread has already gone past its "sell by" date. Sorry to expose the science project in the fridge on this one, but I could not resist. Caffeine high just hit.

1. Cheating is cheating. If you do it, GTFO of the Lounge, period. That means, re-read Griselda's post, and this time, pay attention. She says it nice, I say it mean.

2. If ya gets old, and ya makes excuses, yer a whiner. Have your Dad email me if you find that offensive, I am 45, father of 2, husband of one, and may be able to have an adult discussion with him on why rule number one in my house is "No Whining."

3. Fun is where you find it. Cheat or not, just don't ask Legits to approve of your decisions in that regard when you have self doubt . . . which probably comes from the deep seated understanding of right and wrong that your Dad taught to you a few years before you taught yourself to . . . edited, no need to go there.

Show your manhood some respect, eh? :blink:

Occhi

[Jarulf]

IF BLIZZARD WANTED YOU TO KNOW THE ITEM LEVELS ON BATTLE.NET, THEY WOULD OF MADE THEM AVAILABLE TO SEE IN GAME!

Yeah, and if Blizzard wanted you to know the formulas to calculate damage they would have written them in game. If Blizzard wanted you to know the cap on absorbtion they would have shown you it. If they wanted you to know the dimishing return on Magic Find, they would have shown you it. If Blizzard want you to know the levels of the monsters, it would show you to it, or the levels of areas, and so on, and so on. So lets just close down a few forums on this site dealing with such things, no?

Oh, and by the way, your shift key is stuck or your caps lock key is malfunctioning...



Please note, I am not speaking for cheating or any specific program. I just thing the argument I replied to is a very bad and weak one.

[Jarulf]

And, just as with your kids, tell him that if he cannot play the game as designed, maybe he should find a new game?

And in the future, don't you dare removing the queen when you play chess with your grandchildren to make it more even. That is against the design of the chess. If you can't have a fun game without going against its design, perhaps you should tell them to go play some other game with you!!!

Geee, as long as you don't affect others that are not in agreement with you, why should others bother? He was talking about his father who plays it himself.

[ShadowHM]

And in the future, don't you dare removing the queen when you play chess with your grandchildren to make it more even. That is against the design of the chess. If you can't have a fun game without going against its design, perhaps you should tell them to go play some other game with you!!!

Geee, as long as you don't affect others that are not in agreement with you, why should others bother? He was talking about his father who plays it himself.
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Your point is well taken. There is a concept called "house rules" that we use for games. They do have to be explained in advance, of course, so that all parties are subject to the same rules. The "house rules" concept is what makes me perfectly comfortable with the playing of a mod. And, as you say, the person who plays solo really can make any rule they want.

But I do not agree with your suggestion that giving the kids a break on the rules is the way to go, in aid of having fun with them. If they don't learn to thrive in the 'usual' rule set, and we cannot have fun doing so, then indeed, we will play another game. The joy of being trounced by your own children (and eventually grandchildren) at a game is something that no parent should miss out on.

I play a lot of Crokinole. I play with my friends, my husband and my children. And this summer I had the incredible fun of having the team of hubby'n'Shadow being trounced in a game by a team of the eight and ten year old. There is no pride available to such a winner if they did it when the adults did the equivalent of spotting them a queen.

[Jarulf]

I used "kids" since the post I replied to used it. It had no speacial meaning about how to treat kids in general. The post was not about kids but "how a game was designed". To be honest, in most cases I don't think the game makers either care how you play the game (as long as you enjoy it and buy it, fine) or even HAVE a clear cut out idea how a game should and should not be played in detail.

[Taem]

Yeah, and if Blizzard wanted you to know the formulas to calculate damage they would have written them in game. If Blizzard wanted you to know the cap on absorbtion they would have shown you it. If they wanted you to know the dimishing return on Magic Find, they would have shown you it. If Blizzard want you to know the levels of the monsters, it would show you to it, or the levels of areas, and so on, and so on. So lets just close down a few forums on this site dealing with such things, no?

Oh, and by the way, your shift key is stuck or your caps lock key is malfunctioning...
Please note, I am not speaking for cheating or any specific program. I just thing the argument I replied to is a very bad and weak one.
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Okay fair enough, however if you used a 3rd party program to show you the calculated damage, cap on absorption, diminishing returns on Magic Find, monster levels or area levels then you'd be cheating. There's no two-ways around that fact! That was my point and I think that if you had read my post in context (directed at Whathuh), then you would of understood this. Even in the portion you quoted it states "ON BATTLE.NET... IN GAME". Sure you can see find the monster levels by checking the Arret Summit and then you'll know the item level by doing that, but for some reason or another (let me reiterate), Blizzard DOES NOT want you to know the Item Levels in game!!! So is my point clear enough now?