What skills next. Avenger

[Sirbub]

I am a 40 avenger and this is my skills so far.

4 zeal
1 vengance-left click
10 resist cold
9 resist fire
2 resist cold
10 holy shield
1 conviction-Main aura-right click

What I am wonder is what should I pump next. What I am thinking is damge first, resist cold/fireghtning to 10 (for mana reasions) then vengance to 20 then conviction. I gess my problem is when to pump conviction over damge. I have heard that NM you should be 50+ and 75+ for Hell and I am trying to get my skill so I can be effective in late NM and in hell.

Thanks again
Sirbub

[Baajikiil]

What I am wonder is what should I pump next. What I am thinking is damge first, resist cold/fireghtning to 10 (for mana reasions) then vengance to 20 then conviction. I gess my problem is when to pump conviction over damge. I have heard that NM you should be 50+ and 75+ for Hell and I am trying to get my skill so I can be effective in late NM and in hell.

Thanks again
Sirbub


I would suggest getting conviction up to the -100% resistance level as quickly as possible. Monsters are capped at -100%, so that is pretty much the most efficient lvl to be at.

Remember that conviction will be more effective than the individual resists for damage; conviction will be +5% to all elements as opposed to 10% to one. Also, conviction is much more effective vs resistant monsters than upping your total damage.

For example a 500 damage blow to a 50% resistant monster will do 250 damage.
But a 300 damage blow to a 0% resistant monster will do 300 damage.

Another benefit is that you will begin to nearly never miss. The -enemy defense becomes very valuable in late NM and all throughout hell. Especially if you are relying on manafe stealing to stay alive.

Also this is gear dependant. If you have tons of AR, or ITD, who cares about defense reduction? If you can get high resists, and want to play it safe, upping the elemental resists for the passive bonus to max resists would be a good idea. Some avengers never up vengeance past lvl 1 at all.

Although vengeace itself gives better returns than the elemental auras, it's not recomended to max it unless you have very good mana steal; it gets very expensive fast. Killing phys immune monsters becomes quite a hassle even with vengeance when you can't leach any mana, and it costs 8+ mana for one swing.

[Sirbub]

Thank you. Looks like I will start maxing conviction now.


Sirbub

[Sirbub]

Thank you. Looks like I will start maxing conviction now.


Sirbub

[Taem]

Thank you.  Looks like I will start maxing conviction now.
Sirbub
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I concur with everything Baajikill is saying, however I would like add to it by presenting to you a more stereo-typical Avenger build for 1.1:

Avenger: (completed by character level 99)
(Might mercenary for added physical damage; i.e. life-leech)
Vengeance - 20; Prerequisites - 2
Resist Fire - 20
Resist Cold - 20
Resist Lightening - 20
Conviction - 20; Prerequisites - 5
Holy Shield - 1; Prerequisites - 2

Holy Shield is a one-point wonder, greatly increasing your blocking (14% at skill level 1 alone!) and adding to your overall defense. In "hardcore" this is invaluable because it allows you to divert necessary points that would have been in Dexterity (for a 75% block) to Vitality.

Salvation is also a one-point wonder. Sure, it adds elemental damage, but the returns are so extremely low so it's really not worth investing any more skill points than necessary. One point in salvation will provide 88% resistance to yourself and your comrades in dangerous situations, which seems extremely useful but I have yet to use it (or see other paladins using it for the sake of others) on Battle.net, thus I suggest not bothering even putting a single point in this skill. Besides, 1 point in Salvation means a Vengeance of 19 at character level 99, and you can’t have an imperfect Avenger, now can you ;) ?

[Zingydex]

I have to point out that the "stereotypical" build puts the mana cost of a single Vengeance swing into the double digits - completely unsupportable without insane mana leech and/or potion consumption. Not my idea of a viable plan for the less-than-super-rich.

[Sirbub]

At skill lvl 20 the mana cost for vengance is only 8.7 mana I dont know how high you can get past that but that doesnt seem much.

sirbub

[ShadowHM]

Salvation is also a one-point wonder.  Sure, it adds elemental damage, but the returns are so extremely low so it's really not worth investing any more skill points than necessary.  One point in salvation will provide 88% resistance to yourself and your comrades in dangerous situations, which seems extremely useful but I have yet to use it (or see other paladins using it for the sake of others) on Battle.net[right][snapback]58789[/snapback][/right]

This can depend heavily on what sort of folks you run with in your games. Slvl 12 Salvation confers immunity to elemental attacks to most minions (with the exception of Shadows). A Paladin who runs Salvation at high levels, in conjunction with Vengeance, can really improve the life expectancy of all around him, allowing them to focus more on offense themselves, and still be a fairly mean killing machine himself.

I had such a Paladin on the last ladder. He was a slow killer on his own, but was still quite viable. But he really shone in team efforts. :D

[Zingydex]

At  skill lvl 20 the mana cost for vengance is only 8.7 mana I dont know how high you can get past that but that doesnt seem much.

sirbub
[right][snapback]58815[/snapback][/right]

Strange - I know I've seen the price tag on that skill go over 10 since the patch. And yes, that's a lot of mana - by the time my Avenger was using 6 per swing I had to abandon him because I just couldn't keep anything in my blue globe for any length of time.

[Guest]

This is true. With lvl 10 ersists fire/coldghtning and salvation, your synergies should pump up the damage vengeance does enough so that you do not need conviction. However in duels their resistance is more importanat than your own, so use conviction during duels.

[Taem]

Strange - I know I've seen the price tag on that skill go over 10 since the patch.  And yes, that's a lot of mana - by the time my Avenger was using 6 per swing I had to abandon him because I just couldn't keep anything in my blue globe for any length of time.
[right][snapback]58818[/snapback][/right]

At skill level 20, Vengeance costs 8.7 mana per swing:

http://www.d2items.com/skills.php?class=pal

Now suppose you are VERY LUCKY and find a Herald of Zak shield and receive a +1 skills from your weapon, armor, and helmet for a total of +7 combat skills raising Vengeance to 27 costing 10.5 mana per swing.

With a Strength of 150+, a Might merc adding some physical damage (say +200% at skill level 10; only clvl 38) and a typical weapon (say 100 average damage after non-elemental/magic damage magical effects), you'd be doing the following physical damage:

STRENGTH ADDED DAMAGE:
Wpn Min/Max Dmg * (Str + 100) / 100
100 * (150 + 100) / 100 =
100 * 250 / 100 =
25,000 / 100 =
+250

MIGHT ADDED DAMAGE
250 + (250 * 200%) = 500
250 + 500 =
750

Unless Diablo lists the damage incorrectly, meaning the first +100% is the normal weapon damage and whatever comes after that is added damage, in which case:

MIGHT ADDED DAMAGE
250 * 200% =
500

So, assuming the worst at 500 physical damage, exactly how much mana leech would you need to use Vengeance without loosing any mana (not including physical immunes)? In Hell difficulty, Life/Mana steal are reduced to 2/3:

http://www.battle.net/diablo2exp/basics/...ulty.shtml

500 / 'x' = 10.5
x = 2.1%

2.1 + ((2.1 / 3) * 2) =
2.1 + (0.7 * 2) =
2.1 + 1.4 =
3.5%

Unless my math is wrong (completely possible) 3.5% mana steal is all you need in Hell with the simplest set up!

[lfd]

So, assuming the worst at 500 physical damage, exactly how much mana leech would you need to use Vengeance without loosing any mana (not including physical immunes)? 
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It's not only physical immunes that are unleechable, though - there's entire classes of monster that you can't leech from at all, and _any_ physical resistance reduces the effectiveness of leech _as well as_ individual monster drain penalties. Your scenario assumes a 100% leechable, 0% physical resist monster. I'm not sure how many of those there are in hell, but I reckon there's an awful lot that aren't.

[Sirbub]

Now thats alot of number chunching and I understood it to. hehe

Thanks Meat
Sirbub

[Baajikiil]

Okay, here's about how it should be(note this real simplistic, someone else might better answer and specific question about damage mechanics):

Weapon's listed damage = 100

Str = 150, and each point on str adds 1% Enhanced damage(ED).
Str bonus = 150% ED

Lvl 10 Might from merc adds 130% ED
Might bonus = 130%

Total off weapon ED = 280%

To find the total damage, you add all off weapon ED including the STR ED, multiply it by the weapons listed damage, and then just add in the base damage:

So, with 100 weapon damage, just do 280% *100 and add it to the weapons base(100).

ED will give 280 damage, and the base 100 brings it up to 380 damage.

380 damage is not so easy to leach 8+ mana back after every kill. Remember that many monsters have leech reductions in hell above and beyond the simply difficulty penalty. Also consider phys immunes and unleachables. You had better have tons of mana pots to kill a phys immune pack in hell; because you won't be leaching at all vs them.

Now, that 380 damage looks pretty low, but remember vengeance(lvl 1, but with 3 elements synergised) will add another 810% elemental ED. And all the elemental damage can be increased with conviction. It's a pretty nasty hit for a 100 damage weapon even without more than 1 point in vengeance.

The merc will only get might lvl 10 when he hits lvl 55, not lvl 38.
(Complete might merc stats)

[adeyke]

At skill level 20, Vengeance costs 8.7 mana per swing:
Now suppose you are VERY LUCKY and find a Herald of Zak shield and receive a +1 skills from your weapon, armor, and helmet for a total of +7 combat skills raising Vengeance to 27 costing 10.5 mana per swing.

With a Strength of 150+, a Might merc adding some physical damage (say +200% at skill level 10; only clvl 38) and a typical weapon (say 100 average damage after non-elemental/magic damage magical effects), you'd be doing the following physical damage:

Actually:
100 * (100 + 200 + 150) / 100 = 450 physical damage

That is, with 150 strength and 200% might, you have 350% off-weapon ED, which boosts the 100 to 450.

So, assuming the worst at 500 physical damage, exactly how much mana leech would you need to use Vengeance without loosing any mana (not including physical immunes)?  In Hell difficulty, Life/Mana steal are reduced to 2/3:
500 / 'x' = 10.5
x = 2.1%

2.1 + ((2.1 / 3) * 2) =
2.1 + (0.7 * 2) =
2.1 + 1.4 =
3.5%

Unless my math is wrong (completely possible) 3.5% mana steal is all you need in Hell with the simplest set up!
[right][snapback]58865[/snapback][/right]

In hell, life/mana steal are reduced by 2/3 (so it's just 1/3 the normal value).

Monsters have physical resistances that reduce the amount of damage you can deal to them. The average physical resistance (looking only at entries in monstats.txt, ignoring rarity and including many "dummy" monsters) is 38%. Some monsters have 0%, some 100%, some inbetween.

So the 450 damage is really, on average, just 279.

Then the monsters have their individual leech penalties. On average (same method as above), leech is only 75% effective against hell monsters.

So, if you deal 279 damage per hit and want to leech 10.5 mana, you'd normally need 3.8% leech, but this needs to be multiplied by 3 due to the hell penalty and by an average of 4/3 due to the average individual leech penalty. That means you need about 15% leech to maintain your vengeance.

Of course, the actual averages for physical resistance and leech penalties are different, and nigh impossible to calculate; you'd have to know exactly how many of what type of monster you encounter, and what bosses and such are among them. Against some monsters, you can't leech at all, while others just have very harsh penalties. For example, with the 450 damage against the Diablo Clone, you'd need 93% leech to maintain the vengeance.

[ryan4nayr]

I built an avenger in ladder 1 (named him RachelsBane, after an ex-g/f :blink:), having just 4% mana leech is NOT the case at all.

I'm no stranger to piling on mana steal, however; my frostmaiden at some point had 27% mana steal. Granted, she can get away with not having max block, max resists, decent fhr, decent dmg reduction, astronomical life...

In the end, like my other melee chars, I didn't like him so much. The balancing act between survivability, firepower & fun factor was too hard. Hope yours turn out better.

[CyberNite]

I am a 40 avenger and this is my skills so far.

4 zeal
1 vengance-left click
10 resist cold
9 resist fire
2 resist cold
10 holy shield
1 conviction-Main aura-right click

What I am wonder is what should I pump next.  What I am thinking is damge first, resist cold/fireghtning to 10 (for mana reasions) then vengance to 20 then conviction.  I gess my problem is when to pump conviction over damge.  I have heard that NM you should be 50+ and 75+ for Hell and I am trying to get my skill so I can be effective in late NM and in hell.

Thanks again
Sirbub
[right][snapback]58729[/snapback][/right]

Well, I know that I'm a little late in getting here to give my 2 cents, but I find that my way of doing things, while less popular, works just fine.

First, your stats are the easiest part: str for gear, dex for 75% block, vit - everything else.. that one everyone can agree on.

Where my build tends to get less-than-popular, is in the skill placement choices. I'll give my reasoning after.

Defensive Auras:
20 Resist Fire
20 Resist Cold
20 Resist Lightning

Offensive Auras:
20 Conviction
5 prereqs

Combat Skills:
3 Zeal
1 Vengeance
16 Holy Shield
5 prereqs

Total skill points: 110 (Yes, this is a fully planned out build)

Now to the reasoning for this spread. First and foremost, this build doesn't HAVE to have any specific gear. You can play it untwinked well, and twinked even better.

I'll give the differences between my way and the 20 Vengeance 10 in resists auras now so that we have an understanding of what made me choose this path:

20 Vengeance + 10 Resist Fire + 10 Resist Cold + 10 Resist Lightning = +284% of each element at the cost of 8.7 mana per attack (easily hitting double digits with +skill gear) and +5% to your max elemental resists.

1 Vengeance + 20 Resist Fire + 20 Resist Cold + 20 Resist Lightning = +270% of each element at the cost of 4 mana per attack and +10% max elemental resists.

So we have here the differences: 11 skill points more for my build and loss of 14% damage in each element.. in trade for 54% mana cost reduction and 5% higher natural max elemental resists.

Let's look at what happens if we have +6 skills in gear (easily done):

26 Vengeance + 10 in resist auras = +320% of each elemental damage
10.2 mana per attack
7 Vengeance + 20 in resist auras = +306% of each elemental damage
5.5 mana per attack

What does this tell us? Well, if we do the rough math (as opposed to the tedious but more specific kind) we will find that while you are doing 42% elemental damage more with the first method, you do it at the cost of 85.5% more mana. So if you are worried about the mana issue, you should really think about just what your skill points are doing for you. (If you are dead set on breaking that +1,000% elemental mark, then you could take points out of Holy Shield and raise your Vengeance until you hit it (with maxxed resist aura synergies, you break the +1,000% elemental damage mark at total level 12 Vengeance including bonuses from gear)).

Disclaimer: Before anyone brings it up, if they would decide to do so, I intentionally didn't go into the math throwing Conviction into the mix. The fact is, the only numbers that would be viable as a reference point would be the standard 75% resist of things like the 3. If anyone is really curious, with level 20 Conviction, your elemental damages will be doing (base resist 75% - 125 from Conviction = -50%) 50% more damage than listed. And for those who just want to have some extra skill points to throw around, one might note that the resist pently from Conviction caps at -150% (slevel 25).