Violence in sports

[Ashock]

(2004-11-22) -- A brutal fistfight among golfers and fans at this weekend's Dunlop Phoenix in Miyazaki, Japan, may result in the suspension of top players from several nations, and again raises concerns about how the so-called "Cadillac and Callaway" attitude which has dominated the game may contribute to a coarsening of the culture.

PGA executives continue to review videotape of the incident, which apparently started when a fan standing near the tee box shouted 'Miss it!' while Tiger Woods was in mid-swing.

"You can't blame the golfers," said an unnamed PGA source. "A lot of these kids came from the suburbs, and you can't change their behavior just by paying them millions of dollars."



http://www.scrappleface.com



-A

[Guest]

WTF - "A lot of these kids came from the suburbs"


Since when are people from suburbs known for being violent?

[Doc]

(2004-11-22) -- A brutal fistfight among golfers and fans at this weekend's Dunlop Phoenix in Miyazaki, Japan, may result in the suspension of top players from several nations, and again raises concerns about how the so-called "Cadillac and Callaway" attitude which has dominated the game may contribute to a coarsening of the culture.

PGA executives continue to review videotape of the incident, which apparently started when a fan standing near the tee box shouted 'Miss it!' while Tiger Woods was in mid-swing.

"You can't blame the golfers," said an unnamed PGA source. "A lot of these kids came from the suburbs, and you can't change their behavior just by paying them millions of dollars."
http://www.scrappleface.com
-A
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Golf is a lame boring snoozefest to watch. And everybody knows this. Ever stop to think that somebody might get paid to raise a ruckus and bring some interest?

Golf would be much better if it were full contact.

The pussification of everything continues. Not less violence, more violence in sports. Bone crunching body busting fun. Remember when football was a game? Remember when men played in leather helmets? And hardly any pads? And not a bunch of grab ass limp wristed sissified Nancy boys?

Not a sports fan. Couldn't really care less. But I do understand what it means to compete. I used to do SCA tourneys a long time ago, back when broken bones and getting plastered on mead was all the rage. Now, they to are pussified. Victory means nothing if you don't sacrifice something to earn it.

Sigh. I hate being old enough to remember that a fat lip and a black eye is good for you.

[Minionman]

(2004-11-22) -- A brutal fistfight among golfers and fans at this weekend's Dunlop Phoenix in Miyazaki, Japan, may result in the suspension of top players from several nations, and again raises concerns about how the so-called "Cadillac and Callaway" attitude which has dominated the game may contribute to a coarsening of the culture.

PGA executives continue to review videotape of the incident, which apparently started when a fan standing near the tee box shouted 'Miss it!' while Tiger Woods was in mid-swing.

"You can't blame the golfers," said an unnamed PGA source. "A lot of these kids came from the suburbs, and you can't change their behavior just by paying them millions of dollars."
http://www.scrappleface.com
-A
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This has just been sports fight week I guess. I don't really watch sports and don't care too much.

Someone in school has this opinion also about lots of money, but eeing the salary losses from some of the NBA players, I wish I had that amount of money to loose.

[Minionman]

Golf is a lame boring snoozefest to watch. And everybody knows this. Ever stop to think that somebody might get paid to raise a ruckus and bring some interest?

Golf would be much better if it were full contact.

The pussification of everything continues. Not less violence, more violence in sports. Bone crunching body busting fun. Remember when football was a game? Remember when men played in leather helmets? And hardly any pads? And not a bunch of grab ass limp wristed sissified Nancy boys?

Not a sports fan. Couldn't really care less. But I do understand what it means to compete. I used to do SCA tourneys a long time ago, back when broken bones and getting plastered on mead was all the rage. Now, they to are pussified. Victory means nothing if you don't sacrifice something to earn it.

Sigh. I hate being old enough to remember that a fat lip and a black eye is good for you.
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Your types can waste time getting themselves cleaned up and "toughened", the rest of us can use it to get smarter. That's a viewpoint right now.

Anyway, golf is really designed to be boring it seems, those are the type of people who play and watch it. If someone wants tougher sports, they have boxing and football to watch.

I've never gotten why people look up to boxers and football players anyway, since I don't think many people are really interested in using their life to beat the crap out of each other.

[Doc]

Your types can waste time getting themselves cleaned up and "toughened", the rest of us can use it to get smarter.  That's a viewpoint right now. 

Anyway, golf is really designed to be boring it seems, those are the type of people who play and watch it.  If someone wants tougher sports, they have boxing and football to watch. 

I've never gotten why people look up to boxers and football players anyway, since I don't think many people are really interested in using their life to beat the crap out of each other.
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I have a good college education and I seem to present my self as being well educated and smart. I have no problem flexing my brain before my arm. I am dedicated to peace and pacifism. I dislike violence when both parties are not willing participants. I can appreciate it's beauty when both parties agree that a contest is in order.

I just understand what tooth and nail combat can do for the human psyche. It's healthy. Boosts self esteem and confidence. And watching it allows many to live vicariously.

So what is "my types" anyways? I would like to know. Am I a mere dumb brute?

[Minionman]

I have a good college education and I seem to present my self as being well educated and smart. I have no problem flexing my brain before my arm. I am dedicated to peace and pacifism. I dislike violence when both parties are not willing participants. I can appreciate it's beauty when both parties agree that a contest is in order.

I just understand what tooth and nail combat can do for the human psyche. It's healthy. Boosts self esteem and confidence. And watching it allows many to live vicariously.

So what is "my types" anyways? I would like to know. Am I a mere dumb brute?
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"Your types" was mentioned as a person who likes violence in sports. That whole post was my version of the style in your first post, which was sort of combative.

Now that that's out of the way, I see violence in sports as showing other people to actually go out and do it, without your second paragraph, so a lot of people who do the sports think they should go and push everyone else around and act like bullies. For the confidence, I go to my learning and new ideas for computer games, maybe debates and general talking like what we're doing now. And there's other things to do for confidence.

[jahcs]

Rude, out of control fans and players are the problem. Our society is losing basic courtesy at an alarming rate, and not just in regard to watching sports events. A bunch of Nancy Boys on the field of play just makes the game boring to watch, not dangerous to watch.

The foul in the NBA game was pretty bad and it could have been handled on the court, even with the player that was fouled trying to fight. When the players rushed onto the court to fight and not break up a fight there is a problem. When the fight migrates into the stands there is a major problem.

[Doc]

"Your types" was mentioned as a person who likes violence in sports.  That whole post was my version of the style in your first post, which was sort of combative. 

Now that that's out of the way, I see violence in sports as showing other people to actually go out and do it, without your second paragraph, so a lot of people who do the sports think they should go and push everyone else around and act like bullies.  For the confidence, I go to my learning and new ideas for computer games, maybe debates and general talking like what we're doing now.  And there's other things to do for confidence.
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It's not that I like violence in sports. I dislike pussification in anything.

People should take their lumps, in what ever form they come. Parents should not hover over their children, preventing every little bump and thump. And grown people should not have others hovering over them doing much the same. Games like football should be violent. Physics dictate it to be so. These behemoths slamming into one another should be a smash fest. And sports, ALL sports, should have defining moments proving that you are right, or that you kick ass, or that you win in the only way it matters. Settle it like men. Or women. If a fight breaks out, call out an official and make sure both are willing, then let them settle each other's hash.

[Minionman]

It's not that I like violence in sports. I dislike pussification in anything.

People should take their lumps, in what ever form they come. Parents should not hover over their children, preventing every little bump and thump. And grown people should not have others hovering over them doing much the same. Games like football should be violent. Physics dictate it to be so. These behemoths slamming into one another should be a smash fest. And sports, ALL sports, should have defining moments proving that you are right, or that you kick ass, or that you win in the only way it matters. Settle it like men. Or women. If a fight breaks out, call out an official and make sure both are willing, then let them settle each other's hash.
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Yes, football and other sports cause will cause bangups, I don't think anyone's arguing with that. Fighting doesn't show people have skills though, it just shows they get mad easily. If someone like me watches sports, it's to see who is stronger or a better thrower, or sometime's in football's case who makes the better tackles, not who has the most trouble letting some little thing go.

As you said, it's a culture thing about sports, I go to see skills, I don't know what you go to see.

As for the talking about other parts of life, I have my own opinions depending on the actual situation. I do think that in general people should at least have information or be able to get it about what they can do about tough situations and have at least some help with them, as long as they earn to handle the different things.

And because every thread must turn into an Iraq one, <_< I think Iraq is a very violent place right now.

[Doc]

Yes, football and other sports cause will cause bangups, I don't think anyone's arguing with that.&nbsp; Fighting doesn't show people have skills though, it just shows they get mad easily.&nbsp; If someone like me watches sports, it's to see who is stronger or a better thrower, or sometime's in football's case who makes the better tackles, not who has the most trouble letting some little thing go.&nbsp;

As you said, it's a culture thing about sports, I go to see skills, I don't know what you go to see.&nbsp;

As for the talking about other parts of life, I have my own opinions depending on the actual situation.&nbsp; I do think that in general people should at least have information or be able to get it about what they can do about tough situations and have at least some help with them, as long as they earn to handle the different things.&nbsp;

And because every thread must turn into an Iraq one, <_< I think Iraq is a very violent place right now.
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I don't watch it on teevee much, and I don't go see it in person much either. I am sorely turned off by how most games are played now. Even hockey, one game I used to like, has become overrun with limp wristed Nancy boy sissies... Yeah, I just said that. Did you know if the ice was frozen just right, and it was cold enough, that blood and vomit would bounce when it hit instead of splattered?

[Chaerophon]

Even hockey, one game I used to like, has become overrun with limp wristed Nancy boy sissies... Yeah, I just said that. Did you know if the ice was frozen just right, and it was cold enough, that blood and vomit would bounce when it hit instead of splattered?

I would agree with that to a point in the NHL. However, if you go come up here to watch a junior hockey game, I guarantee that you'll get your money's worth in that department!

I'll never forget my first rookie camp. Four fights in four nights, a black eye, jersey-burned face and, most important of all, a sore hand :) I didn't make the final cut that year, but they damn sure remembered who I was come next camp!

However, I do have to admit that, even 7 or 8 years ago things were a bit different. Nowadays there is a lot less of that in camp. I was a moderately to well-skilled player, but if I wanted to make it, I had to show some grit too. It's not so much 'required' now as it is 'admired' :). Having assistant coached for two years after I was done playing, I would agree with you that the biggest part of the problem is increased parent 'involvement'.

[Minionman]

I don't watch it on teevee much, and I don't go see it in person much either. I am sorely turned off by how most games are played now. Even hockey, one game I used to like, has become overrun with limp wristed Nancy boy sissies... Yeah, I just said that. Did you know if the ice was frozen just right, and it was cold enough, that blood and vomit would bounce when it hit instead of splattered?
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In case you haven't noticed, there is a puck out there too. The puck is the little black thing they use to score goals with. Te sticks are used to control the puck. That's the basics of what the puck is for in the game.

If you're just talking about checking, sure, that's one way to do the game, There's also passing and plays that are cool to watch, which is what I go to see. I don';t go to see people get int otheir little fights.

This argument is a lot of fun, with the coming up with responses and all.

[Minionman]

I would agree with that to a point in the NHL.&nbsp; However, if you go come up here to watch a junior hockey game, I guarantee that you'll get your money's worth in that department!

I'll never forget my first rookie camp.&nbsp; Four fights in four nights, a black eye, jersey-burned face and, most important of all, a sore hand :)&nbsp; I didn't make the final cut that year, but they damn sure remembered who I was come next camp!&nbsp;

However, I do have to admit that, even 7 or 8 years ago things were a bit different.&nbsp; Nowadays there is a lot less of that in camp.&nbsp; I was a moderately to well-skilled player, but if I wanted to make it, I had to show some grit too.&nbsp; It's not so much 'required' now as it is 'admired' :).&nbsp; Having assistant coached for two years after I was done playing, I would agree with you that the biggest part of the problem is increased parent 'involvement'.
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If people cut down on fights in other places, I don't see what sticking it all over in sports will do. If someone likes fighting, they have to deal with that plain and simple, not just try and move it around somewhere else.

[Doc]

In case you haven' t noticed, there is a puck out there too.&nbsp; The puck is the little black thing they use to score goals with.&nbsp; Te sticks are used to control the puck.&nbsp; That's the basics of what the puck is for in the game.

If you're just talking about checking, sure, that's one way to do the game, There's also passing and plays that are cool to watch, which is what I go to see.&nbsp; I don';t go to see people get int otheir little fights.&nbsp;

This argument is a lot of fun, with the coming up with responses and all.
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You know, I can remember when hockey games scored more then one or two goals because of the brutality. I know there is a puck there. A long time ago, it actually used to be a game instead of two teams playing grabass and two goalies acting as corks. You would send in a few guys to rough up the goalie. Maybe smack him so hard he couldn't move so well. Hobble his arm or his leg. And then move in and score. A long long long time ago, hockey was exciting, because of how it was played, and it allowed people to score. You had expendable players whose sole purpose was to cripple somebody important in a big game, even if it got them suspended for the rest of the season. Hockey was war... And it was treated as such.

Now hockey players are sissies with perfect pretty teeth. <_<

[Zarathustra]

WTF - "A lot of these kids came from the suburbs"
Since when are people from suburbs known for being violent?
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If that was sarcasm, well put.

[Minionman]

You know, I can remember when hockey games scored more then one or two goals because of the brutality. I know there is a puck there. A long time ago, it actually used to be a game instead of two teams playing grabass and two goalies acting as corks. You would send in a few guys to rough up the goalie. Maybe smack him so hard he couldn't move so well. Hobble his arm or his leg. And then move in and score. A long long long time ago, hockey was exciting, because of how it was played, and it allowed people to score. You had expendable players whose sole purpose was to cripple somebody important in a big game, even if it got them suspended for the rest of the season. Hockey was war... And it was treated as such.

Now hockey players are sissies with perfect pretty teeth. <_<
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Well, since we're getting into words like "sissies", I figured I'd throw around the puck bit.

Just to make things clearer, are you just posting for the fun of it or because you have strong feelings? It's getting hard to tell. I mean this sentence in a real way, not a sarcastic way.

[Doc]

Well, since we're getting into words like "sissies", I figured I'd throw around the puck bit.

Just to make things clearer, are you just posting for the fun of it or because you have strong feelings?&nbsp; It's getting hard to tell.
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Strong feelings. And sports is but a small piece of a larger problem.

Americans used to be known for heartiness and grit. As old as I am, I can remember a much tougher generation. This was our greatness. We had hard caloused hands and cold steely stares. Now we have metrosexuals and male make up. Winning used to mean something. Now, in little league, or what ever kids are playing, "everybody is a winner" and "you are special." This coming generation is a bunch of mollycoddled miksops with all the determination, conviction, and backbone of a wet noodle. The other day I saw helmets, elbow, and knee pads that were specially made for children learning how to walk. For crying out loud... AAAAAAAAAAARGH!! With out PAIN there is no MOTOVATION to do better. And how the hell does a toddler learn to walk with all that encumbering gear? Let them fall and take their lumps. Let them split their chins on the coffee table corner. They do it once or twice and they learn to never do it again.

As it should be in sports. Losing should hurt. Should be personally painful as a motivator to go out and kick ass next time.

Or you could just be "special."

[Guest]

Actually it wasnt. Almost everywhere in America is violent by some standards(such as Japans).

Suburbs are probably more violent than rural communities. But the majority of Americans live in suburbs or actual cities.
It would make more sense to say - "you cant blame them, they are American".

[Chaerophon]

If people cut down on fights in other places, I don't see what sticking it all over in sports will do.  If someone likes fighting, they have to deal with that plain and simple, not just try and move it around somewhere else.
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Hockey fighting involves a measure of honour and respect, something that the average modern bar brawler knows nothing about. It has an internal culture - lines that may not be crossed and liberties that may not be taken without punishment. The key is that it is most often measured, respectful punishment.

In my father's day, an after-school fight might result in a black eye, but when the guy was down, he was down. Nowadays, if he's down, it's time for everyone to jump in and start kicking. The correlation that you seem to be positing between 'cutting down on fighting in sports' and 'cutting down on fighting in the real world' doesn't exist. There was a hell of a lot more fighting in the game 30 or 40 years ago than there is now. There was also about a quarter of the stick work, and a lot less street violence (at least where I live, in Vancouver).

Fights aren't everything that there is to hockey, and they aren't the reason that I love the game. However, until you have been a part of a team on which every player is willing take a beating for one of his teammates, you cannot understand what fighting means to the sport. When you see a friend, a fellow warrior felled by a high stick and you feel such a bond, you think nothing of dropping the gloves and making someone pay the price. For the length of a season (and often longer), your teammates are your brothers and there is little that you would not do to defend them. This relationship is the key to a successful team and to the passion of the sport. In my opinion, it is this fire, this devotion that is missing from sports like basketball, in which most teams are little more than a group of isolated individuals. I agree that there is no place for fighting in basketball. Hockey is a different sport with different roots. Hockey players are bred to be warriors. To play like anything less is to disrespect the roots of the game and its traditions. Devotion to one's team is what the sport is all about, and removing fighting from the game would put out the fire that unites every team - the willingness to spill blood for a teammate.

EDIT: Just thought I'd add; a few lumps are much more likely to deter future action than is a penalty. What's more, a few lumps will rarely hurt anyone, while slashing, high sticking, and hitting from behind incidents can end a career.