The Rogue's Gallery

[Concillian]

I have 3 comments on this build that I hope are constructive:

1)
Without using Seal Fate, I question the use of dagger specialization. Since you are planning precision (which I like to see, I think precision is a little underrated), dual weild specialization would seem a better choice for damage in most cases. Doing the math on this:

A crit = 100% extra damage.
You get that extra damage an additional 5% of the time. Overall average is 5% extra damage. That damage is intermittent, you can go a whole kill without seeing a crit.

Dual weild: Main hand = 2/3 of direct damage
off hand = 1/3 of direct damage (50% penalty for off hand use)

Increase off hand by 50% and you have:
Main hand = 2/3 of direct damage
off hand = 3/6 (1/2) of direct damage
overall this is an increase of 16% damage. That damage increase is CONSISTENT AND it allows you to be flexible with your weapons and use a sword or mace in your main hand if you want for better SS damage.

You have to get lucky for dagger spec to be better, but the odds say that most of the time you won't get lucky. Dagger spec is for gamblers. I'm a statistician, not a gambler.

2)
I have heard that ther eis a cap to fastest weapon speed at 1.0 (though have not confirmed this) and with BF and SnD at the same time you're going to waste some speed if there is indeed a cap. Also, without Seal fate, Improved BS or improved Ambush, there is no real advantage to a dagger. May as well use a weapon that will do more damage with your primary combo point building skill (SS). This goes along with swappling dagger spec. for dual weild spec. All of the sudden you aren't restricted to daggers anymore. SS becomes the bread and butter combo point generation method, and SS is WAY better with a high damage slow weapon.

Try a mace in your main hand and see what difference it makes. Backstab never appealed to me that much, and when I switched to a mace in the main hand, I was AMAZED at how much easier life was when using SS.

3)
10 points in poisons? I just find that's a lot on what is such a relatively minor portion of total damage. For me, I almost always have crippling poison on my main weapon to prevent runners and the adds that runners bring with them. I use mind-numbing situationally, sometimes using both crippling and mind numbing, foregoing any damage from poison. The usefulness of these two poisons is far too great to spend on increasing instant poisons so much. And there are SO many good talents for a rogue. To go this deep in assasination and NOT get Cold Blood should be a crime. Cold Blood is a free crit on an eviscerate every 3 minutes. When trying to grind and killing quick, I generally go about 30 seconds per mob (usually I have to wait for distract to cool down if I use it on every mob) So that's basically one free use ever 6 mobs. A guaranteed crit Eviscerate is like a free kill. Cheap shot, SS, gouge then cold blood + Eviscerate = dead yellow without me taking a single hit. Combine that with blade flurry every 2 in your build minutes, and you are a leveling machine against normal mobs. Your emergency situations become easy when you can use Evade AND BF AND a CB on Eviscerate. Even though they changed Blade flurry to not hit 2 mobs when using Eviscerate. (It used to)

Personally I'd make that same build like this to add flexibility:
Move the dagger spec. points to dual weild spec.
Remove 10 points from poisons and add them as follows:
3 points Improved Eviscerate
3 points Ruthlessnes
1 point Relentless Strikes
1 point Cold Blood
1 point Riposte
1 point Improved SS

- Cold Blood is too much to pass up because a crit Eviscerate does silly damage.
- Improved Eviscerate is there for the same reason
- Imp. SS, Ruthlessness and Relentless strikes are there to aid in energy and combo points. Allows you (sometimes) do do a finisher right after a finisher. Since with improved SnD even one combo point gives you 13 seconds of ginsu, SnD is excellent to use when low on combo points in this build.
- Riposte is there because you have the point and disarming a foe is not just cool, but adds to the defensive abilities your build is based around. A disarmed mob is neutered. It also deals 150% weapon damage, which builds nicely on not using a dagger. Plus it's super cheap on energy.

This build does sound interesting if tweaked a bit. That you have no talents helping in combo point generation seems to go along with the fact that SnD is a little less reliant on combo points than other finishers. It lacks an improved opener, but makes up for that a bit in the inclusion of the defensive talents that give you a bit more staying power.

[Roland]

I have 3 comments on this build that I hope are constructive:

1)
Without using Seal Fate, I question the use of dagger specialization.  Since you are planning precision (which I like to see, I think precision is a little underrated), dual weild specialization would seem a better choice for damage in most cases.  Doing the math on this:

A crit = 100% extra damage.
You get that extra damage an additional 5% of the time.  Overall average is 5% extra damage.  That damage is intermittent, you can go a whole kill without seeing a crit.

Dual weild: Main hand = 2/3 of direct damage
off hand = 1/3 of direct damage (50% penalty for off hand use)

Increase off hand by 50% and you have:
Main hand = 2/3 of direct damage
off hand = 3/6 (1/2) of direct damage
overall this is an increase of 16% damage.  That damage increase is CONSISTENT AND it allows you to be flexible with your weapons and use a sword or mace in your main hand if you want for better SS damage.

You have to get lucky for dagger spec to be better, but the odds say that most of the time you won't get lucky.  Dagger spec is for gamblers.  I'm a statistician, not a gambler.

You'd be surprised how much I Crit. My Crit rating on-screen is around ~15% (just slightly under). By boosting Dagger Specialization, I can get that up to 20% easily, and that's at level 25 with mediocre gear. I have 35 more levels to gain Agility and better gear to help boost my crit rating - I can see it hitting 25% easily, or at least 22% - 23%.

2)
I have heard that ther eis a cap to fastest weapon speed at 1.0 (though have not confirmed this) and with BF and SnD at the same time you're going to waste some speed if there is indeed a cap.  Also, without Seal fate, Improved BS or improved Ambush, there is no real advantage to a dagger.  May as well use a weapon that will do more damage with your primary combo point building skill (SS).  This goes along with swappling dagger spec. for dual weild spec.  All of the sudden you aren't restricted to daggers anymore.    SS becomes the bread and butter combo point generation method, and SS is WAY better with a high damage slow weapon.

Try a mace in your main hand and see what difference it makes.  Backstab never appealed to me that much, and when I switched to a mace in the main hand, I was AMAZED at how much easier life was when using SS.

Even if there is a cap, I haven't been relying on SnD nearly as much as I used to. I've been focusing on (or trying to) a quick 2-point to 3-point Rupture, letting the DoT stack with my opening Garrote (generally), while my crits and Poison wear the mob down. I don't rely on SS to boost my damage (although it does do that) so much as to build up combos for long-term damage. I'm finding that Eviscerate may just be too good to pass up on, but that wasn't really the purpose of this Rogue. SnD and/or Blade Fury may not prove to be as useful as I originally thought, given the speed of Daggers already, but we shall see. I have a long time to find out, and I can always respec.

I may try equipping a Sword (I don't think I've trained Maces yet - I forget where I can :P), but who knows. For now, I like my twin daggers. :D The thought of switching weapons has been on my mind, though. As for Dual-Wield Spec, see my comments above. I crit way more than I think you realize, and the damage output, while not significant at any one point in time, combined with my Poison damage just rip things to shreds over time. That's the only thing though - over time. I'm finding that with some of the tougher, harder-hitting mobs, time is a luxury I don't always have. ;)

3)
10 points in poisons?  I just find that's a lot on what is such a relatively minor portion of total damage.  For me, I almost always have crippling poison on my main weapon to prevent runners and the adds that runners bring with them.  I use mind-numbing situationally, sometimes using both crippling and mind numbing, foregoing any damage from poison.  The usefulness of these two poisons is far too great to spend on increasing instant poisons so much.  And there are SO many good talents for a rogue.  To go this deep in assasination and NOT get Cold Blood should be a crime.  Cold Blood is a free crit on an eviscerate every 3 minutes.  When trying to grind and killing quick, I generally go about 30 seconds per mob (usually I have to wait for distract to cool down if I use it on every mob)  So that's basically one free use ever 6 mobs.  A guaranteed crit Eviscerate is like a free kill.  Cheap shot, SS, gouge then cold blood + Eviscerate = dead yellow without me taking a single hit.  Combine that with blade flurry every 2 in your build minutes, and you are a leveling machine against normal mobs.  Your emergency situations become easy when you can use Evade AND BF AND a CB on Eviscerate.  Even though they changed Blade flurry to not hit 2 mobs when using Eviscerate.  (It used to)

Again, I think you're under-estimating my damage potential with Poisons. I can watch them go off as much as 6 or 8 times in any given fight, sometimes less, occasionally more in a longer / tougher fight. Believe me, all that damage adds up. And it's FREE! When I hit them, I deal my damage, and if my weapon procs, I get that much more damage on TOP of what I already dealt! Combine that with my crit rating and you have some serious damage potential in a fast-hitting Rogue. I've seen Paladins have trouble keeping aggro off me BECAUSE I do so much damage. As for Crippling Poison, that's what I have Garrote, Rupture, and Throwing Knives for. Blizzard didn't give us these skills for nothing. :P Knives are for opening AND closing a fight - more often the latter. :P

As for not taking Cold Blood, it just didn't strike me as that necessary. However, if I'm already going to have Improved SnD, I might as well place the point from Blade Fury in something else, right? I suppose I could do Cold Blood. It IS a free Crit, but the point of this build was to crit a significant amount of the time WITHOUT activating abilities. Where I'd REALLY like to place that point is in Ghostly Strike - it fits so well with the theme of the character, both skill- and roleplay-wise. The only problem is, I don't have enough points in Subtlety, although I could remedy that with a little switching around.

The other thing is, I don't want to be your cookie-cutter, spam-SS-Evisc-rinse-repeat Rogue. I like subtlety. I like sneaking up, Garroting them, dropping a Sinister Strike or two in there to build up a short combo, and finish off with a Rupture. After that, it's all gravy. I DO toss in Eviscerate, but only AFTER Rupture, and even then they're usually dead before I even have to. And, as I'm sure you know, Eviscerate with Daggers is not the most damaging thing in the world - it's almost a waste of a finisher. The theme behind this build is very simple: speed, criticals, and poison, with DoT aiding. I'm not relying on my weapon to do the bulk of my damage, I'm relying on it to deliver the two things that WILL make up the bulk of my damage: poison and criticals. It's just an experiment to see if this is, in fact, a viable build, partly because I LOVE the look of dual-daggers, and partly because I'm sick of hearing that Poisons offer such "insignificant" damage.

Personally I'd make that same build like this to add flexibility:
Move the dagger spec. points to dual weild spec.
Remove 10 points from poisons and add them as follows:
3 points Improved Eviscerate
3 points Ruthlessnes
1 point Relentless Strikes
1 point Cold Blood
1 point Riposte
1 point Improved SS

1) I'd prefer the points in Dagger Spec. for the improved Crit rating. I had toyed with the idea of going Dual-Wield Spec., but after seeing just a 3% increase in Crits, I knew I had found my path. The extra 5% may not make that huge of a difference since my rate is already so high, but it sure can't hurt. And again, it's not so much about the extra BASE damage as it is the extra CRIT and POISON damage. :)

2) Improved Eviscerate doesn't fit in with my build very much, since I RARELY use it (and I do mean rarely).

3) Ruthlessness is a possibility, as the added combo points would help. Free combo points never hurt, despite my minimal reliance on them (and yet I'm always struggling to gain more! ;)). Relentless Strikes, IF I go with Ruthlessness, would also be good, and the two do go hand-in-hand. However, that point in Relentless Strikes would be taken from Blade Fury (or, alternatively, Riposte, or Ghostly Strike).

4) Cold Blood, Riposte, and Improved SS would cost me my points in my Poison skills, which are the MAIN (did I say main? I mean main :D) theme behind this Rogue. Criticals go hand-in-hand with that (when I think Rogue, especially this one, I think of a lethal assassin who stalks you from the shadows and pierces your gullet with a poisoned dagger, letting you die quickly and silently from a mortal wound festering with venom); the two are married together and form the backbone of this Rogue. Going dual-daggers allows me to do that with speed, style, and most of all: low talent use. :) Going with Swords would mean potentially delving deeper into the Combat tree, not to mention losing Backstab (I don't use it often, but I use it often enough to want to use it), Ambush (see above), and 5% Critical Strike rating, which hurts the build's main focus.

I understand your comments and where you are coming from. I don't think you quite understand where I am coming from. I have stubbornly set myself on this path to prove a point (that Poison and Dual-Daggers are both viable, especially in tandem), and to have fun (what good is an MMORPG if you can't RP a character you like?).

- Cold Blood is too much to pass up because a crit Eviscerate does silly damage.

I know. I did a ~200 point Eviscerate on a Spider today, and that was only after about 2 points. 3 tops!

- Improved Eviscerate is there for the same reason
- Imp. SS, Ruthlessness and Relentless strikes are there to aid in energy and combo points.  Allows you (sometimes) do do a finisher right after a finisher.  Since with improved SnD even one combo point gives you 13 seconds of ginsu, SnD is excellent to use when low on combo points in this build.

This sounds VERY nice, and is definitely something I will have to try in the future, but for this Rogue, it doesn't quite fit in (Talent-point wise; if I had more points, there's a LOT I would boost, like Camouflage, Ghostly Strike, Riposte, etc.). Would that I could, but it's not fitting with the theme of the Rogue. Besides, it falls way too close to the Cookie-Cutter Rogue, and I want to stay as FAR away from that as possible (I want to try a Subtlety-focused Rogue one of these days).

- Riposte is there because you have the point and disarming a foe is not just cool, but adds to the defensive abilities your build is based around.  A disarmed mob is neutered.  It also deals 150% weapon damage, which builds nicely on not using a dagger.  Plus it's super cheap on energy.

See my comments throughout. I am leaning towards Riposte over Blade Fury, but Ghostly Strike would be far more useful to me, IMHO, and besides, I don't understand how this skill works. Do I have to use it immediately after I parry? Or once it activates (after I parry), will it stay available throughout the fight? Or only for a limited time? Because of my very rapid attacks (SnD makes it go so fast the numbers can't even keep up! :P), if it doesn't stay active throughout the fight (until I use it), it'd be useless to me because I'd never have the chance to use it before it deactivated. Otherwise, it's a possibility, but I think the point could go to better Talents.

This build does sound interesting if tweaked a bit. That you have no talents helping in combo point generation seems to go along with the fact that SnD is a little less reliant on combo points than other finishers.  It lacks an improved opener, but makes up for that a bit in the inclusion of the defensive talents that give you a bit more staying power.
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Combine that with my Poison, high Crit rate, and Precision (for improved hit rate). And as you noted, my heavy focus on defensive Talents (Dodging and Parrying), I can tank much better than your average Rogue, although when the hits DO get through they hurt just as much. :P I'm just better at dodging them without relying on Evasion. ;)

I do have ONE thought as to a big possible change, something I didn't give ANY consideration to due to minimal experience in my earlier levels: Expose Armor, and more specifically, Improved Expose Armor. I used this skill very little in my early levels, as most fights (like now) didn't last long enough for me to 1) notice any significant difference in damage output (probably due to my low-damage Daggers; hrmmm, maybe I was right to forgoe this skill?), and 2) didn't allow me to get up to 5 combo points fast enough to measure much of anything. I STILL find it difficult to get up to 5 combo points, but in those instance runs, it's not that uncommon on the tougher monsters. I don't know. I lost my train of thought on this one (I blame the g/f), but I HAD a point. :)

Anyway, a few potential builds:

Combat:
Lightning Reflexes - 5
Deflection - 5
Precision - 5
Dagger Specializtion - 5

Assassination:
Malice - 5
Ruthlessness - 3
Murder - 2
Relentless Strikes - 1
Lethality - 5
Vile Poisons - 5
Improved Instant Poison - 5

Subtlety:
Master of Deception - 5

Adds 60% chance of adding a combo point when I Finish, and a 20% per combo point of gaining 25 Energy when I Finish. Useful for starting those next combos, although it comes at the cost of Imp. Slice and Dice and Blade Fury.

***OR***

Combat:
Lightning Reflexes - 5
Deflection - 5
Precision - 5
Dagger Specializtion - 5

Assassination:
Malice - 5
Ruthlessness - 3
Murder - 2
Lethality - 5
Vile Poisons - 5

Subtlety:
Master of Deception - 5
Camouflage - 5
Ghostly Strike - 1

Focus on added Stealth, and vastly improved Dodging ability via Ghostly Strike. Useful as an "Oh no!" ability, or just as a cheap combo-adder that doubles as a defensive bonus. Also allows up to 85% movement speed while Stealthed, thus making scouting faster and easier. (Note: If combined with Imp. Vanish, movement speed would be increased to 105% while Stealthed, unless multiplicative.)

***OR***

Combat:
Lightning Reflexes - 5
Deflection - 5
Precision - 5
Riposte - 1
Dagger Specializtion - 5
Blade Fury - 1

Assassination:
Malice - 5
Ruthlessness - 3
Murder - 2
Relentless Strikes - 1
Improved Expose Armor - 3
Lethality - 5
Vile Poisons - 5

Subtlety:
Master of Deception - 5

Focus on crippling the enemy via disarm (Riposte; also good, VERY cheap damage adder that can be used very often), Expose Armor (+45% of 1700 at Rank 5, 5-point combo Finisher, equals out to an extra 765 armor loss, for a total of almost 1500 less armor), and improved combo point / energy generation via Ruthlessness and Relentless Strikes. Still fits the overall theme of my original build while rounding out his abilities some, although at the expense of focus in Poison.

I kinda like the last two builds, even though they cost me in Poison (and the second one has potentially 2 wasted points: Riposte and Blade Fury). Plenty of room for future builds in the Rogue Talent trees. In fact, having delved this much into the class (and to think, I was merely doing this as an amusing experiment just to prove a point to myself and to have some fun with something different), I may have to do a guide on Rogues, their Talents, and potential Rogue builds. :)

Well, this has turned into a huge post, unexpectedly I might add. But I hope it was worth the read! Again, I'll keep you posted on my progress.

P.S. - 14.19% Critical Strike rate, 24.34% Dodge rate, 4.96% Parry rate, with 631 Health, 91 (60+31) Agility, and 120 Attack Rating (melee; 115 Ranged). 23.0 and 11.5 DPS main-hand / off-hand (Speed: 1.70), 25.0 DPS ranged (Speed: 2.10). Instant Poison deals 19 - 25 Nature Damage per proc, at Rank 1. Rank 2 coming at level 28 (about 5% from level 25), increasing to 30 - 38 Nature Damage.

[Roland]

After much more thought, I've come up with three potential plans for my Dual-Dagger Wielding Poison Rogue. They are as follows:

Assassination:
Improved Eviscerate - 3
Malice - 5
Murder - 2
Lethality - 5
Vile Poisons - 5
Improved Instant Poison - 5
Cold Blood - 1

Combat:
Lightning Reflexes - 5
Deflection - 5
Precision - 5
Dagger Specialization - 5

Subtlety:
Master of Deception - 5

Focus on Poison and 5 pt. Eviscerate backed by Cold Blood (I know, I know - it just SCREAMS cookie cutter; but after a LOT of thought, I figured I might as well TRY it :P). 100% crit on Evisc., with 15% extra damage already, can be pretty deadly. And it does technically fit the RP aspect of the character, although certainly not the "variant" goal.

Assassination:
Malice - 5
Murder - 2
Improved Slice and Dice - 3
Lethality - 5
Vile Poisons - 5
Improved Instant Poison - 5
Cold Blood - 1

Combat:
Lightning Reflexes - 5
Deflection - 5
Precision - 5
Dagger Specialization - 5

Subtlety:
Master of Deception - 5

Only difference here is pushing focus away from Cold Blood + 5 pt. Eviscerate, and more towards outright speed (from Slice and Dice) to really dish out the Poison and the occasional Cold Blood induced attack (whatever suits me at the time). 45% longer Slice and Dice means that even at 1 pt. SnD, it will last slightly longer (1.05 sec.) than a 2 pt. SnD, without the added Energy input. And it only gets better from there (5 pt. SnD yields a whopping 30.45 sec.).

Assassination:
Malice - 5
Murder - 2
Improved Slice and Dice - 3
Lethality - 5
Improved Instant Poison - 5

Combat:
Lightning Reflexes - 5
Deflection - 5
Precision - 5
Dagger Specialization - 5

Subtlety:
Master of Deception - 5
Camouflage - 5
Ghostly Strike - 1

Ah, and here we deviate somewhat from the original plan of mass Crits & Poison, and instead move into the realm of stealthy and nimble combat. +15% movement while Stealthed will allow me to maneuver better for those critical first blows, as well as escape that much faster while Vanishing. And let's not forget improved scouting ability. :) Ghostly Strike, OTOH, not only gives me a new bread 'n' butter combo-builder (albeit an expensive one), but it also gives me a 15% Dodge bonus. Given my already high dodge bonus, I wouldn't be surprised if I hit +50% Dodge with this engaged, WITHOUT Evasion. Tacking Evasion on there would just make me utterly immune for a short period of time, with Parry picking up any slack if something wears off. :) I do lose out on a 15% damage bonus to both Instant Poison and Deadly Poison (which I don't see myself ever using), but hopefully the 10% extra proccing combined with a quick Slice and Dice will make up for that. And besides, I gain a really cool ability that not only dishes out moderate damage, but also sets me up for improved Tanking. :)

Tough call on them. The real problem lies in the Assassination tree: I am FORCED to choose either 3 Imp. Evisc., 3 Ruthlessness, or 3 Imp. SnD, none of which do I truly NEED. Imp. SnD is nice, but not necessary. Ruthlessness is only mediocre to me, since most of my damage comes from my normal attacks (crits and Poison), and not from combos, and Imp. Evisc. just sends me down that road of cookie-cutter. Now, if Improved Expose Armor were among those choices as well, it'd almost be a no-brainer, but it's one row further down, so I cannot even open it up with one of the above investments. The other thing with Imp. Expose Armor is that, again, most of my damage is coming from Crits (which Imp. EA would help) AND Poison, which would get no benefit from Imp. EA.

One of the things I like about this build is its non-reliance on high-damage weapons, nor on pumping up huge combos for those one-hit kills. Instead, speed and lethality are the key, with poison playing a huge role in added damage. Think about this: with roughly 20% - 25% Critical Hit rate, 40% chance of proccing my Instant Poison (which, at Rank 6 with 5 Imp. Instant Poison equals out to 128.8 - 170.2), and incredible base attack speeds, I can dish out a fair amount of damage all without ever getting a single combo point. Combine that with DoTs, SnD for insane attack speeds, and perhaps even Cold Blood for the occasional guaranteed Critical, and I won't be hurting for damage nor energy, provided I play the style right. A very high Dodge rating, paired with strong Parrying skills provide me with enough protection to tank for short periods of time, especially with a dedicated Tank and Healer at my side. Essentially, I can be a combination DPS machine and secondary Tank, with the proper support. And that's without activating things like Evasion, Gouge, or Vanish. And of course I'll always fulfill my role as Scout and crowd controller (boy do I ever LOVE Distraction & Sap! Best non-caster skills in the game, IMHO).

At any rate, those are my continued thoughts and plans for the future of this Rogue. Time and playesting may change my views on it all, but somehow I truly think Blizzard not only intended for my relative build to be viable, but actually pulled it off (kind of like the Trapassin of D2 fame - skills designed for support becoming the main body of the character's repertoire, with the right playstyle adjustment). So far, I have seen few problems soloing much of anything, provided I'm not careless. And in groups it's just rediculous what I can do with proper support. :) So, I'm not worried yet about long-term viability, nor for that matter do I plan to deviate from the ORIGINAL goal (Crits, Poison, and Dodge / Parry, with dual Daggers for speed; and of course to HAVE FUN! :D).

[Concillian]

You'd be surprised how much I Crit. My Crit rating on-screen is around ~15% (just slightly under). By boosting Dagger Specialization, I can get that up to 20% easily, and that's at level 25 with mediocre gear. I have 35 more levels to gain Agility and better gear to help boost my crit rating - I can see it hitting 25% easily, or at least 22% - 23%.

It doesn't matter how much you crit. Dual weild will give more damage, more consistently than dagger spec.

It's tough to keep up your crit rate. It increases at a rate of 1% crit per clvl/2 AGI. At lvl 60 150 AGI is only 5% crit. But it doesn't matter. Your crit rate without dagger spec will be exactly 5% lower than with. In other words you will crit at the same rate as you do now with a dagger if you weild a sword or mace. That translates to 5% damage on average. Dual weild spec translates to 16% damage on average 16 > 5.

I may try equipping a Sword (I don't think I've trained Maces yet - I forget where I can :P), but who knows. For now, I like my twin daggers. :D The thought of switching weapons has been on my mind, though.

Try it. Seriously.

Again, I think you're under-estimating my damage potential with Poisons. I can watch them go off as much as 6 or 8 times in any given fight, sometimes less, occasionally more in a longer / tougher fight.

I know how much damage poisons do. But the utility of crippling and mind numbing posions cannot be measured by damage alone. Not having mobs run around into other mobs getting me into a situation I can't handle (without vanish) is something I like to avoid. Crippling poison is your only snare as a rogue, and it's a GOOD one.

I do have ONE thought as to a big possible change, something I didn't give ANY consideration to due to minimal experience in my earlier levels: Expose Armor, and more specifically, Improved Expose Armor. I used this skill very little in my early levels, as most fights (like now) didn't last long enough for me to 1) notice any significant difference in damage output (probably due to my low-damage Daggers; hrmmm, maybe I was right to forgoe this skill?), and 2) didn't allow me to get up to 5 combo points fast enough to measure much of anything.

Improved Expose Armor is of zero use solo and against normal mobs. It comes into play on elite bosses that have large amounts of armor. Armor is the kind of thing that is on a diminishing returns scale, as you can see here:
http://www.merciless-gilde.com/index.php...ols&tool=1

When reducing armor this kind of scale works to your advantage. Every extra bit you add to removing armor adds more damage than the last bit.

Take for example a lvl 60 elite boss that has 7000 armor (I don't know how much they have, this is a total guess). 7000 = 56% damage reduction. The warrior spams his 5 sunders on the target, reducing 2250. Now the target is at 4750 and ~46% damage reduction. Stack 5CP Expose Armor on top of that and armor is 3050 and reduction is about 36%. If you had Improved Expose armor and you have a further 735 reduction for 2285 armor. Now he has a damage reduction of 29%. Note that 1700 adds 10% but only 45% more defense reduction with Imp. EA gives 7%. It's not la linear benefit. It's one of the few things in the game that small extra amounts give you LARGE returns.

In that example if the warrior also had improved sunder, it would give an additional 675 armor reduction. This translates to an additional 7% also.


Without the benefit of the sunders Imp. EA would have only bought you less than a 4% bonus to damage. It's the kind of thing you use in a group where there is a hunter and a warrior doing physical damage so you are all getting the benefit of the Expose Armor.

[Kevin]

Take for example a lvl 60 elite boss that has 7000 armor (I don't know how much they have, this is a total guess).  7000 = 56% damage reduction.  The warrior spams his 5 sunders on the target, reducing 2250.  Now the target is at 4750 and ~46% damage reduction.  Stack 5CP Expose Armor on top of that and armor is 3050 and reduction is about 36%.  If you had Improved Expose armor and you have a further 735 reduction for 2285 armor.  Now he has a damage reduction of 29%.  Note that 1700 adds 10% but only 45% more defense reduction with Imp. EA gives 7%.  It's not la linear benefit.  It's one of the few things in the game that small extra amounts give you LARGE returns.

In that example if the warrior also had improved sunder, it would give an additional 675 armor reduction.  This translates to an additional 7% also.
Without the benefit of the sunders Imp. EA would have only bought you less than a 4% bonus to damage.  It's the kind of thing you use in a group where there is a hunter and a warrior doing physical damage so you are all getting the benefit of the Expose Armor.
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Sunder and Expose armor do not stack and actually interfere with each other. Which ever is better will replace the other one and if the better one is applied the other will not work you get the 'a more poweful effect is active' message (however the exact wording is). The rogue would just not be able to do an expose armor of 1700 if the warrior had already gotten it up to 2250. A 1700 expose armor would prevent a warrior from doing additional sunders as well. At least this is what I have run into when playing a warrior with a rogue.

[Concillian]

Sunder and Expose armor do not stack and actually interfere with each other.  Which ever is better will replace the other one and if the better one is applied the other will not work you get the 'a more poweful effect is active' message (however the exact wording is).  The rogue would just not be able to do an expose armor of 1700 if the warrior had already gotten it up to 2250.  A 1700 expose armor would prevent a warrior from doing additional sunders as well.  At least this is what I have run into when playing a warrior with a rogue.
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Well that sucks.

Not only that it makes expose armor pretty much completely useless, because you NEED to let the warrior use his sunders.

[Roland]

It doesn't matter how much you crit.  Dual weild will give more damage, more consistently than dagger spec.

It's tough to keep up your crit rate.  It increases at a rate of 1% crit per clvl/2 AGI.  At lvl 60 150 AGI is only 5% crit.  But it doesn't matter.  Your crit rate without dagger spec will be exactly 5% lower than with.  In other words you will crit at the same rate as you do now with a dagger if you weild a sword or mace.  That translates to 5% damage on average.  Dual weild spec translates to 16% damage on average 16 > 5.

There's one huge flaw with your argument: critical strikes with special attacks. Aside from the fact that I crit on a REGULAR basis (I NEVER go a fight without seeing at least half a dozen crits; I once counted 6 in a ROW, although the highest I've seen since is 4 - 5, not that I've been paying much attention to counting), a critical strike while pulling off a combo (via Eviscerate) is just sick. Not to mention a critical on combo builders (Sinsiter Strike regularly combos, and Eviscerate combos quite often; just imagine a critical on Backstab or Ambush!). 200 - 250 damage crits with 3-pt. Eviscerate happen about 5% - 10% of the time. Doesn't sound like often, but that's 1 in every 10 - 20 mobs. Think how long it takes you to chew through 20 mobs. For me, it's about 10 minutes, roughly, maybe even less. That's a significant damage addition, especially when doing instances.

I think I'll stick with Dagger Specialization for now, and see how it goes.

[vor_lord]

There's one huge flaw with your argument: critical strikes with special attacks. Aside from the fact that I crit on a REGULAR basis (I NEVER go a fight without seeing at least half a dozen crits; I once counted 6 in a ROW, although the highest I've seen since is 4 - 5, not that I've been paying much attention to counting), a critical strike while pulling off a combo (via Eviscerate) is just sick. Not to mention a critical on combo builders (Sinsiter Strike regularly combos, and Eviscerate combos quite often; just imagine a critical on Backstab or Ambush!). 200 - 250 damage crits with 3-pt. Eviscerate happen about 5% - 10% of the time. Doesn't sound like often, but that's 1 in every 10 - 20 mobs. Think how long it takes you to chew through 20 mobs. For me, it's about 10 minutes, roughly, maybe even less. That's a significant damage addition, especially when doing instances.

I think I'll stick with Dagger Specialization for now, and see how it goes.
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Uh, I'm not seeing the 'huge flaw'. Crits are on a percentage basis (100%), so a crit on an Eviscerate is still just a certain percentage of increase--as Concillian pointed out, 5% over time with dagger spec.

What am I missing? Often I'm slow :), but I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say.

[Concillian]

Uh, I'm not seeing the 'huge flaw'.  Crits are on a percentage basis (100%), so a crit on an Eviscerate is still just a certain percentage of increase--as Concillian pointed out, 5% over time with dagger spec.

What am I missing?  Often I'm slow :), but I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say.
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He is partly right, though he never expressly mentions the reason, so he may not realize why he's right...

Off-hand weapons are not a part of any damage calculation for special attacks, but critical strikes are. SS is only calculated based on main hand damage and eviscerate damage is not based on weapon damage at all. These special attacks get additional damage from crit%, but do not get additional damage from the damage bonus of the dual weild specialization talent.

However, he mentions that he rarely uses eviscerate and instead uses finishers like Slice and Dice and Rupture. These are finishers that don't crit. Slice and dice works by putting even more weight on your normal attack damage. I guess it would come down to the % of total damage that comes from each attack type.

In my play style I am far more reliant on damage from special attacks like SS and Eviscerate, but I also don't go far enough into the combat tree to have to worry at all about which specialization to choose. Tonight I'll have to look more closely at how much damage comes from what attacks in my usual play style. CTmod tracks these kinds of statistics, and even if I didn't use the mod for UI changes, I'd use it just to have the combat statistics.

As I said it's heavy on the special attacks with a typical fight going:

CS + SS + gouge + run + fire bow + SS + eviscerate + SS (usually dead) + SS or gouge (depending on the health level... if needed)

This one turns off normal attack for a while when the guy is gouged and I regenerate enough energy that I can string together 2 to 4 special attacks. The result is a far higher special attacks:normal attacks ratio than someone like Roland who is doing normal attacks the whole time he's waiting for energy to regenerate.

I don't doubt the viability of the skills mentioned at all. It's downright difficult to make a rogue build that can't do enough damage to solo green and yellow mobs well. I don't even know if it can be done.

[Concillian]

Think how long it takes you to chew through 20 mobs. For me, it's about 10 minutes, roughly, maybe even less.
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It's about the same. Distract is usually just ready or I have to wait just a couple seconds for distract to be ready if I use it every mob and that skill has a 30 second cooldown. So 20 in 10 minutes is about right.

And yes, If I'm doing yellows, I usually use distract every mob. Primarily just to keep them from moving around so I can pickpocket with less risk.

[Roland]

He is partly right, though he never expressly mentions the reason, so he may not realize why he's right...

Yes and no. I'll see if I can explain a bit more clearly.

[/quote]
Off-hand weapons are not a part of any damage calculation for special attacks, but critical strikes are. SS is only calculated based on main hand damage and eviscerate damage is not based on weapon damage at all. These special attacks get additional damage from crit%, but do not get additional damage from the damage bonus of the dual weild specialization talent.
[/quote]

Yes. I did forget to mention this, although to be honest I don't know why. Just never crossed my mind to mention it. Guess I thought it was common knowledge, but then I think that's just because I've been playing my Rogue so exclusively lately that I forgot what it was like not to know anything about Rogues. :D My bad, and my apologies for such.

However, he mentions that he rarely uses eviscerate and instead uses finishers like Slice and Dice and Rupture. These are finishers that don't crit. Slice and dice works by putting even more weight on your normal attack damage. I guess it would come down to the % of total damage that comes from each attack type.

Here's where _I_ made a major flaw: since my last post, I've been using Eviscerate a lot more. Perhaps that's just because I've been wanting to try it out, per your advice, and perhaps because I have nothing better to use. :P For short-work mobs (read: 90% of what I fight), NOTHING is worth building up combo points for, because they just don't last long enough. When I'm farming leather, I've been using SnD MUCH more because the health bar of my enemies quite literally goes down faster by almost 100%. But while that's active, I have to do SOMETHING, so I'll occasionally through in a couple SS's plus a quick Eviscerate to finish them, IF I have time. A lot of the time, I'll get off one or two SS's (by the time I've used up SnD, I've gotten off a Garrote and two - three quick SS's, and finished with SnD whipes my Energy to 0, so it takes awhile for me to gear up again), and then the mob will be dead. :P

However, in instances when fighting tougher mobs, Eviscerate makes for semi-decent damage at high points, especially when I critical. OTOH, without a critical hit, Rupture does much better damage, and is GUARANTEED damage (I whiff a lot with my Daggers since I don't have Precision yet; focused on Dodge and Parry before hit% so I can solo better), and it's DoT, which works wonders in long fights. So, it often depends on my mood as to whether I use Rupture, Eviscerate, or Slice and Dice. Expose Armor I tested, and even at one point it nearly doubles my physical damage right now, but as you said, Armor is on a sliding scale, so while it works great now, it will be a mere pittance later on, AND I have other skills that work better overall, IMHO. So, as you said, it would be a waste to bother with. I was right when I dropped it from my quick-bar initially. They need to make it %-based, so it's more effective. Maybe then it would stack with Sunder, too.

In my play style I am far more reliant on damage from special attacks like SS and Eviscerate, but I also don't go far enough into the combat tree to have to worry at all about which specialization to choose. Tonight I'll have to look more closely at how much damage comes from what attacks in my usual play style. CTmod tracks these kinds of statistics, and even if I didn't use the mod for UI changes, I'd use it just to have the combat statistics.

I may have to check out this mod, if only to see what kind of damage I am doing. But then, I'm not SO concerned about damage from which attacks, nor my total damage, as I am about the THEME of my build. :)

As I said it's heavy on the special attacks with a typical fight going:

CS + SS + gouge + run + fire bow + SS + eviscerate + SS (usually dead) + SS or gouge (depending on the health level... if needed)

This one turns off normal attack for a while when the guy is gouged and I regenerate enough energy that I can string together 2 to 4 special attacks. The result is a far higher special attacks:normal attacks ratio than someone like Roland who is doing normal attacks the whole time he's waiting for energy to regenerate.

I don't doubt the viability of the skills mentioned at all. It's downright difficult to make a rogue build that can't do enough damage to solo green and yellow mobs well. I don't even know if it can be done.
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So very true. The oddity of my build is that special attacks are almost a waste of energy, because with my Instant Poison I deal so much extra damage from it proccing, and using SnD just makes me proc that much more often, in addition to all the extra physical damage I dish out. Eviscerate is a nice skill, and I would love to build another Rogue that emphasises it much more, but for this Rogue, it's more of a "filler" because I have nothing better to do than an actual staple skill.

BTW - Just hit 26 and got Cheap Shot. Haven't used it yet, but am dying to. :) Not sure if it will replace Garrote in my normal soloing tactics, though, because the extra DoT, especially stacking with Rupture, helps whittle down my opponent while I'm proccing poison and waiting for my Energy to recharge. But, we'll see. I can see this skill getting more use in Instances, I think, when I have less time and ability to charge up combos, especially since I don't want to draw aggro.

To sum it up:
Some things have changed a bit from initial conception. I'm still growing, as is my character and my knowledge, and in doing so I am adapting my playstyle while still trying to keep to my original goals. I'll keep you all posted as to future progress. 28 will see a boost to my Instant Poison, so I hope that will help me improve my already-capable soloing ability. :)

[Roland]

It's about the same.  Distract is usually just ready or I have to wait just a couple seconds for distract to be ready if I use it every mob and that skill has a 30 second cooldown.  So 20 in 10 minutes is about right.

And yes, If I'm doing yellows, I usually use distract every mob.  Primarily just to keep them from moving around so I can pickpocket with less risk.
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Ironically, I never pick-pocket. I use Distract to keep them from wandering so I can maneuver behind for a quick Garrote, or occasionally an Ambush (I'm testing out for a new Rogue build idea I have, based solely upon Premeditation + Ambush + Eviscerate; It may be a waste to use Premeditation over Cheap Shot, but we'll see). I guess when I'm soloing I don't want to bother with the risk of being found out while pick-pocketing. :D