An appeal for moderation

[Nystul]

Does it really matter if there are forgotten capital letters or punctuation marks?
Apparently,it does matter for you;it doesn't matter for me (because it doesn't show any illiteracy from the poster,maybe laziness/negligence);I do it sometimes in other forums,and even here in the LL.So what? [right][snapback]63865[/snapback][/right]

as someone who does not speak english as a primary language you should appreciate the importance of capitalization and punctuation after all they are there for your benefit they separate the stream of words and convey the logical path and grouping of ideas which leads to easier comprehension especially if you do not start your sentences with a subject or write passive sentences it is very hard to really keep up with what is being said unless you know where each idea starts and stops even if you spell every word perfectly leaving out punctuation makes it very hard for your reader to understand what you mean when you do not use punctuation your ideas just ramble together also a different punctuation grouping can give a sentence completely different meanings so it is best to pay attention to such things while correct punctuation should be most beneficial to people who do not speak english as a first language my main point was that to people who do speak english as a first language it should be as natural as breathing as such it should actually take more effort to get it wrong than to do it right that is something that just does not make much sense to me of course people do make occasional typos and use very informal grammar and that sort of thing almost never gets flamed here from what i have seen if a native english speaker is reviewing his posts for content and making thoughtful posts getting the grammar to an acceptable level should be very trivial of course for european posters who speak english as a second language the grammar rules do not always make sense but frankly the worst grammar problems here usually come from native english speakers who just do not care about writing coherently

[Guest]

as someone who does not speak english as a primary language , you should appreciate the importance of capitalization and punctuation ; after all , they are there for your benefit ; they separate the stream of words and convey the logical path and grouping of ideas , which leads to easier comprehension , especially if you do not start your sentences with a subject or write passive sentences; it is very hard to really keep up with what is being said , unless you know where each idea starts and stops ; even if you spell every word perfectly , leaving out punctuation makes it very hard for your reader to understand what you mean; when you do not use punctuation , your ideas just ramble together ;also a different punctuation grouping can give a sentence completely different meanings ; so it is best to pay attention to such things while correct punctuation should be most beneficial to people who do not speak english as a first language ; my main point was that to people who do speak english as a first language,  it should be as natural as breathing ; as such , it should actually take more effort to get it wrong than to do it right ,
that is something that just does not make much sense to me ; of course , people do make occasional typos and use very informal grammar and that sort of thing almost never gets flamed here from what i have seen; if a native english speaker is reviewing his posts for content and making thoughtful posts , getting the grammar to an acceptable level should be very trivial ; of course for european posters who speak english as a second language , the grammar rules do not always make sense,  but frankly the worst grammar problems here usually come from native english speakers who just do not care about writing coherently
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well, i had no problem to understand your post
it takes more time to understand it without punctuation,however it's not that hard for me
what i meant,is that punctuation/capital letters can be unnecessary when common sense is used;and i meant that content is more important than form;of course,there is a minimum of punctuation to use in order to be easily understood,which is not the case for your post
feel free to correct the punctuations that i have put in your post

Abramelin

[DeeBye]

Edited- Dee, I know what you were trying to say, but the way you said it did not help this particular situation. -Griselda

[Guest]

edited

[Guest]

edited

[jahcs]

I care about what I post. I show that I care by taking a moment to read my post through before I hit the "Add Reply" button. I am checking my post for spelling, grammar, and content. Did I include the key points I am trying to get across? Is my post written so that those points are easy to read and understand?

In the first proof read I may miss a few things. Many times I don't catch all of my mistakes. It only takes a few moments to read through a post. It takes longer if the post contains errors or is written poorly. And if it takes the writer extra time to read their own post then it may be a struggle for other Lurkers to read and comprehend it at all.

I commend all Lurkers who do not speak English as a first language. It can be very tough to understand what has been posted and it can be a struggle to articulate an idea into words for the rest of the members to understand. But (and there always is one) I do not like it when someone uses that as a crutch, or an excuse, to not try and improve the quality of his or her posts over time.

Caring enough about an issue to post your ideas should be enough incentive to care about the wrapper you put those ideas in. In this case that wrapper is words, punctuation, grammar, and sometimes smilies :D . Comparing ideas to ice cream: Would you rather buy an ice cream from some grubby guy that sells it out of an ice chest in the back of his rusty van or would you rather buy it from a vendor who keeps himself and his place of business clean? If you want people to buy what you're selling then appearance counts.

edit: Bolty, I apologize. I probably use up half your total bandwidth editing and resubmitting my posts. :blush:

[Guest]

Edited

[Griselda]

Abramelin

I wish that you would have checked your private messages before you posted here. Although you claim that your posts are "honest and polite" you are attacking DeeBye in a *very* extreme manner. I can't let you do that. If English is not your first language, could it be that you are misunderstanding some of the posts here that were meant to be funny? Je sais que si parlions français ici, je ne comprendrais rien.

Your account has been suspended for one week. After that time, you will be welcome to return, as long as you don't attack other Lurkers.

Edit- J'essaie parler un peu de français

[Kylearan]

Hi,

well, i had no problem to understand your post
it takes more time to understand it without punctuation,however it's not that hard for me

That's exactly the reason I don't like posts without proper punctuation, or missing blanks after punctuations, or all-low-caps-posts: It takes more time for me to understand them. Effectively, the laziness of the poster forces me to invest more energy. Or, more exactly, one person (the poster) saves time, but many others (the readers) have to invest more time.

I don't like it when work is forced upon me by others. I find it very rude if I have to invest more time than necessary just because a poster is lazy.

what i meant,is that punctuation/capital letters can be unnecessary when common sense is used;and i meant that content is more important than form;

Yes, content is more important than form. But the form sets the tone of a conversation, and can be seen as a measure of respect someone shows for his conversational partners.

-Kylearan

[Munkay]

content is more important than form[right][snapback]63877[/snapback][/right]

But if the form is so horrible that it hinders the clarity of content, is the form not more important?

Language is the vessel for communicating ideas (content). I'd argue that both are mutually important/dependent on eachother. :)

Cheers,

Munk

[--Pete]

Hi,

But if the form is so horrible that it hinders the clarity of content, is the form not more important?

Language is the vessel for communicating ideas (content).  I'd argue that both are mutually important/dependent on eachother.  :)

Cheers,

Munk
[right][snapback]63956[/snapback][/right]

Neither is *more* important. You could consider the content to be the signal and the form (grammar, spelling, word choice, etc.) to be the medium ('carrier', if you will) by which the signal is propagated. What matters at the end of the day is how much message is communicated to the reader. If there is no content, then expressing it perfectly still leaves the reader with nothing. If the content is there, then the degradation of the medium determines how much gets through.

The point is that the message might still get through even if the medium is greatly degraded. For instance, if one is watching an old copy of a film, it takes a lot of snow and streaks to really kill the message. And, if the content is interesting enough, then even intentional degradation of the medium can be survived, indeed can even enhance the message (Jabberwocky or Finnegan's Wake).

Now, since the average poster is neither a Dodgson nor a Joyce, intentional degradation of the message is rare, and the degradation simply makes the message harder to understand without adding any interest. Language is a tricky beast, in that much of the information is carried by small parts of the message and the bulk is usually just filler. It is that property which makes it possible to carry on some form of a conversation in a noisy bar or club. Because of this, it is hard to apply strict rules in determining when a message has crossed the line and become unintelligible.

So, both the type and the quality of 'errors' needs to be considered. And, though this might be heresy to some, so must the content. There is almost a (personal) irritation factor. If one reads a well written post that has no real content, one might be irritated at the waste of time. If one has to struggle to read a post with content, one might also be irritated at the waste of time, but that is tempered to some degree by the satisfaction of having 'completed' an act of communication. But if one has to struggle with a post that conveys no information through a combination of lack of content and degradation of message, then the irritation is untempered.

All of this, though, is pretty far afield. My original intent was never to suggest that we *abandon* standards. Simply that we use them in moderation. Moderation both in what we remark upon (i.e., since "your" and "you're" can usually be distinguished by context, is it really necessary to post just to point out an error in this usage?) and on how we remark upon it. What prompted me to post in the first place were some humorless nits about form in the WoW fora. The points being nitted were no worse than many of the blunders I've made and gotten away with.

So, perhaps in my first post, I should have simply asked that everyone give the 'unknowns' the same slack that they give their established friends. And that if a correction is felt to be necessary, it be proffered with the same respect to an 'unknown' as it is to an 'established' poster.

--Pete

[kandrathe]

...
I can remember a few posts that had their nits picked before it was known that the poster was not a native speaker of this Gordian Knot we call the English Language.  These posters who had the courage to enter a forum not based in their native language should take it as a compliment that they have such a good grasp of English that they could not be told apart from the majority of Americans.  (I'm not sure if I should applaud or cry. ;))
...
[right][snapback]63843[/snapback][/right]

{wince}

Or, Brits. Or, Canadians. Or, Aussies... I know as an American I am loathe to abscond with another nations heritage, although I am comfortable bludgeoning and butchering it as needed.

:)

On topic; I would add that I am more tolerant with a person who attempts to frame their prose with proper spelling and punctuation, regardless of their linguistic handicaps. What I see often are those who cannot be bothered with the concept of "rules" even in something as basic as language, and so in their attempt to be anti-establishment, and/or lazy to boot, allow their fingers to spew whatever syllables crossed their frontal lobe without a second glance, or a chance to review their "work" for content, clarity, or correctness. This leaves the rest of the forum readers with pleasant task of trying to negotiate their way around this steaming pile of witty poo.

[Nystul]

All of this, though, is pretty far afield.  My original intent was never to suggest that we *abandon* standards.  Simply that we use them in moderation.  Moderation both in what we remark upon (i.e., since "your" and "you're" can usually be distinguished by context, is it really necessary to post just to point out an error in this usage?) and on how we remark upon it.  What prompted me to post in the first place were some humorless nits about form in the WoW fora.  The points being nitted were no worse than many of the blunders I've made and gotten away with.

So, perhaps in my first post, I should have simply asked that everyone give the 'unknowns' the same slack that they give their established friends.  And that if a correction is felt to be necessary, it be proffered with the same respect to an 'unknown' as it is to an 'established' poster.
[right][snapback]63962[/snapback][/right]

I couldn't agree more.

This direction this thread has taken is pretty ironic. There is a lot of moderating and not much moderation. I think the tone of the thread lends more support to your original point than the content of the posts possibly could.

[Mavfin]

Treesh, a while back, when the regulars were in pitched into the battle with the hordes of invading buffoons, I am talking two to three years ago, and particularly during the Beta Test for D II XPAC, I made the comment that a community sets and demands the norms it wants.  For the longest time, Elric held the FAQ and etiquette on his site, as Bolty did not want to be that stuffy.  :) 

[snip]
Occhi
[right][snapback]63478[/snapback][/right]

Oh, God, the LOD Beta test on the forums. If that wasn't a mess, with the relatively (at that time) small LL community invaded by the unwashed HEATHENS! :P I remember those days. Heck, it was running on MY server back then..... :o

Yes, many posted who needed a little brushing up on written communications. But the mods weren't the ones doing it, the community did it back then, too.

I'll crawl back in my cockpit and bomb something and shut up. :shuriken:

[Rinnhart]

{wince}

Or, Brits.  Or, Canadians.  Or, Aussies...  I know as an American I am loathe to abscond with another nations heritage, although I am comfortable bludgeoning and butchering it as needed. 

:)

On topic; I would add that I am more tolerant with a person who attempts to frame their prose with proper spelling and punctuation, regardless of their linguistic handicaps.  What I see often are those who cannot be bothered with the concept of "rules" even in something as basic as language, and so in their attempt to be anti-establishment, and/or lazy to boot, allow their fingers to spew whatever syllables crossed their frontal lobe without a second glance, or a chance to review their "work" for content, clarity, or correctness.  This leaves the rest of the forum readers with pleasant task of trying to negotiate their way around this steaming pile of witty poo.
[right][snapback]63965[/snapback][/right]

My media crafted mish-mash of a personality demands we blame the schools and their sexed-up, murderous, drug-crazed teachers.

[Occhidiangela]

My media crafted mish-mash of a personality demands we blame the schools and their sexed-up, murderous, drug-crazed teachers.
[right][snapback]64887[/snapback][/right]

My background demands that I blame parents, since mine were so good at encouraging and promoting education and the desire to both read and learn at an early age. The Public School system was unable to leach that from me.

Thanks, Mom and Dad! :) (Married 51 years this past September, I might add . . .)

Occhi

[Zingydex]

My media crafted mish-mash of a personality demands we blame the schools and their sexed-up, murderous, drug-crazed teachers.
[right][snapback]64887[/snapback][/right]

While the assorted descriptors are mostly overkill, the core sentiment is sound. The fact that schools regularly let people breeze into high school and even graduate with lower-elementary-level language skills indicates that the education system needs an overhaul.