The Dilemma of Rogues

[Quark]

As I'm finally approaching my Seal Fate talent (I took the long way to it), I keep debating with myself over a very simple problem.

I am a dagger rogue, and have been since the beginning. I enjoy my build, and have considered it a good overall build. However, I have one key problem as a dagger Rogue; I skipped Improved Backstab. Yes, that's right, the 30% bonus to backstab's critical hit rate. The reason for this? Blizzard made dagger Rogues face an unreasonable choice. A dagger rogue by definition wants as much damage as possible, but has problems generating combo points. Two talents that improve criticals (Improved Backstab and Improved Ambush) combined with Seal Fate help generate many more combo points. That's 30 in Assassination, 8 in Combat, and 13 in Subtletly. What's the problem with this? There is no chance for Improved Sap.

Improved Sap is probably the best utility talent a Rogue can have. Later on, when they're complete paper tanks for 4 minute and 45 seconds out of every 5 minutes (The other 15 seconds is when Evasion is active), Improved Sap is invaluable to making sure a Rogue doesn't get aggro in the beginning of the battle. But because Improved Backstab is in the Combat tree, Any true dagger build is removed from the possibility of any of the highest level talents, any Improved Sap, and even the niceties of talents like Preperation.

I rarely use Gouge since I'm almost always grouped (except as a Counterspell), so that makes going for Improved Backstab even worse since I don't care about 3 talent points I'd spend anyway.

Of course, all this leads to my current build. An Ambush and combination Backstab/SS user who is now getting Seal Fate. But since I don't see myself getting rid of Improved Sap, it seems that Seal Fate will only be reliable with Ambush. I'd have to play with SS and Backstab with full Seal Fate to see which one works out better, but clearly with the talent Backstab would be better. Am I shooting myself in the foot by using a dagger build that's not full daggers?

The only other observation I have for this is that I simply don't understand why Backstab, a tool used by assassins everywhere, is in a Combat tree instead of the Assassination. The other mismatch is Improved Slice and Dice ... sitting in the Assassination tree when it seems like a Combat oriented skill. Of course, switching those two would solve my dilemma ... I could get Improved Backstab and Improved Sap at the same time. But is this a reasonable solution to propose? Would it cause unforseen problems? And would Blizzard ever listen to such a request in the first place?

[Arnath]

I too have problems with my rogue dagger build. The idea of using swords as a rogue doesn't really bother me, but not being able to use two of my skills rather does. I learned today on the official forums that attack power benefits slower weapons more than faster ones (as in, the damage increase is larger for slower weapons). This in particular bothers me quite a bit, because it makes downright inferior weapons better for rogue skills like Sinister Strike and Backstab (a Barman Shanker is better for both of these skills than a Deathstriker that is both faster and has higher min/max damage). A subtlety or combat build just sounds rather boring because you'd be doing nothing more than SS-ing all the time. I can't pick one at this point ...

In answer to your questions, I've never really been able to figure out why Improved Backstab is in the Combat tree. However, it seems somewhat unlikely that Blizzard would make such a change at this point, if only because a switch like that isn't a widely shared sentiment. I'm all for it because it would allow me to not put 5 points into Improved Instant Poison just to get to Seal Fate.

Arnath

[ima_nerd]

Imp Instant Poison is a must for anyone that uses poison. Your poison will proc 50% more; pretty good deal. I've heard Imp Sap is a req for high instances as well. However, the 30% crit rate would not only benefit your damage, that's 30% more that Seal Fate will activate on Backstab. Hard choice. Personally, I'm going 2/30/19 or 2/31/18, depending if I put the floater point in Ghostly or Vigor. So I have the best of both worlds but as you said, I'm just pumping SS. With the occasional Gouge. And a Kidney Shot. And Evis. It's really not that boring. :P

[savaughn]

This kind of argument always confuses me. I understand your dilemma, but basically you're complaining that there isn't one uber build for rogues. At it's heart, you're complaining that Blizzard is giving you a choice (we'll let you have a brilliant Sap ability or we'll let you be even fiercer damage mongers). :blink:

I always figured that getting these kind of choices were what made these games fun. Cookie cutter classes suck.

[Cryptic]

Respecing is easy. I've done it 4 times so far. Pricy after awhile, but easy. :)

Throughout the climb from 1-60, I respecced a lot depending on gear I found along the way (Bloodrazor, Widowmaker, Thrash Blade, Dimensional Blade of the Monkey, Perfectly Calibrated Boomstick). You don't have to use the build you're used to all the way up, but if you choose to, you are going to become well-acquainted with both the strenghts and the weaknesses of it.

[Artega]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if your base crit is over twenty percent, would thirty percent more really make a difference?

It's entirely possible for Warriors to get to around 30% buffed crit (Mongoose and Berserker Stance being the buffs), and since Rogues don't need to worry as much about Stamina as Warriors do (after all, they're not tanking), it shouldn't be REALLY hard to reach 30%, either. While 60% crit sounds lovely on paper, I don't think it would make a seriously noticeable difference in crit-rate.

For comparison: I used to have Improved Overpower. 50% crit is insane, right? Well, I managed to get around 23% crit (kicking and screaming about having to drop precious, precious Stamina for Agility), and the extra 50% (which I think has been confirmed to be an integer addition, like 23+50, and not 23x1.5) didn't provide a majorly noticeable difference. I then specced 34/17 Fury/Arms (dropping Improved Overpower and two points in Deflection), and haven't missed it (though I've been missing that extra Parry :( )

Then again, I haven't played a Rogue past Level 13, so I might not know the impact of Seal Fate (and extra CPs.) For instancing, I wouldn't think it would be a problem to gain CPs at a slightly slower rate, since the tank would be holding their attention (and your slightly reduced CP-generation rate would make it a little easier for the tank to hold aggro.)

[savaughn]

I always assumed that a 50% increase in crit meant 1.5 times your current crit rate not an integer add. So if you have a 23% crit rate, overpower would give you a 34.5% crit rate, not a 73% crit rate.

Am I wrong on that?

[Quark]

This kind of argument always confuses me.  I understand your dilemma, but basically you're complaining that there isn't one uber build for rogues.  At it's heart, you're complaining that Blizzard is giving you a choice (we'll let you have a brilliant Sap ability or we'll let you be even fiercer damage mongers).  :blink:

I always figured that getting these kind of choices were what made these games fun.  Cookie cutter classes suck.
[right][snapback]68323[/snapback][/right]

It's not a matter of having just one viable build for dagger rogues. It's the fact that to get your dagger skills up, you have to invest in 3 seperate trees, and the only chance for a top talent is sacrificing a point somewhere and getting Vigor, and 10 energy seems a waste when most skills cost multiples of 20.

Some classes I don't know well at all, but it seems to me a Dagger build is the only build in the game that wants you to invest in 3 seperate trees. Instead of the best talents being spread out over one tree, you're taking talents you don't necessarily want at all just to get to ones you do. As a mage, I want the Arcane abilities. So I go Arcane/Fire. As a paladin, if you want defense, you focus on Protection. If you want healing, you focus on Holy.

I'm not arguing viability of any of these builds. But in most examples I can think of, a character focuses on one tree while going to the 3rd or 4th level in another tree. The 3rd tree is usually completely ignorable. Why waste any talents in it, it's preventing you from going higher up elsewhere? A dagger rogue doesn't really have that option.

[savaughn]

Certainly there are some classes with builds that tend towards heavy investment in a single tree while ignoring the third branch altogether. There's 3 tree builds for EVERY class, however. Rogues tend to do a 30/13/8 build, but there are a large number of other options available. Regardless, you're arguing at cross purposes. Your original statement was basically the "Dagger rogue", i.e. a rogue focusing in on maximizing melee combat with a dagger, should be able to pick up the Improved Sap ability. In the current tree you can't.

Your argument is that Improved Sap is very nice (which it is). Your implication is that because it is nice, you should be able to get it regardless of what else you spend your talents on. I disagree. The best abilities in the game for ALL classes have been placed in such a way so that you have to decide which way to go. If a mage wants Presence of Mind, he can't get Combustion. If a warrior wants Flurry he can't get Mortal Strikes (and similarly can't get Bloodthirst and Sweeping Strikes in the same build). Rogues can't get all of the nastiest dagger abilities and still pick up Improved Sap. Make your choice, play your choice, and respec if you want to see how the other half lives.

A dagger rogue doesn't really have that option.

He does. But if you don't want to just be a dagger rogue - if you want to be able to be a semi-Dagger rogue with better CC, you'll have to make a trade off. To get the additional flexibility, he has to lose some offense. That's the way it should be.

[acidjax]

I always assumed that a 50% increase in crit meant 1.5 times your current crit rate not an integer add.  So if you have a 23% crit rate, overpower would give you a 34.5% crit rate, not a 73% crit rate.

Am I wrong on that?
[right][snapback]68333[/snapback][/right]

Improved Backstab crit chance is an integer add.

[Quark]

After thinking about it, you're right about the whole tradeoff thing.

I guess what irks me is that Blizzard has this great system in place for Talent balance. If you go all the way in one tree, you can only go at best 4-deep into another.

If a mage wants Presence of Mind, he can't get Combustion.

Many people choose their talents based off "do I want 5th level here or 7th level here". The Dagger Rogue just goes all over the place instead. I guess it's too be expected, since the main talent tree for Dagger rogues has a subpar "ultimate" talent.

One note, savaughn: can you reply to specific posts instead of the thread in general? Generic replies in threaded view gets confusing.

[ima_nerd]

In respect to integer add...is everything integer add? I know items that add % to crit are integer add otherwise no one would use them but what about Imp Instant Poison? That 10% bonus, using interger add, gives you a 50% higher proc rate. Vile poisons on the other hand only gives 15% more damage. Yes, Vile Poisons is for everything but it still seems weak when compared to 30% proc Instant over 20% proc Instant. Sorry about the "general post" ;)

Edit: These smileys suck. ';)' gave me a ': /' face. Not what I wanted at all. Smileys off!

[Malakar]

Vile poisons on the other hand only gives 15% more damage. Yes, Vile Poisons is for everything but it still seems weak when compared to 30% proc Instant over 20% proc Instant.
[right][snapback]68781[/snapback][/right]

It's weaker because as you said, it applies to all poisons, and also it's synergistic with the other talents.

[acidjax]

In respect to integer add...is everything integer add?
[right][snapback]68781[/snapback][/right]

Not everything is an integer add. A good rule of thumb is if the attribute/value in question is listed as a percentage (dodge%, crit%) then corresponding talents that modify the % are integer adds.

When you have a talent that boosts the damage bonus of cleave, it's not an integer add. Cleave bonus damage exists as a set amount rather then a percentage.

[Rinnhart]

It's not a matter of having just one viable build for dagger rogues.  It's the fact that to get your dagger skills up, you have to invest in 3 seperate trees, and the only chance for a top talent is sacrificing a point somewhere and getting Vigor, and 10 energy seems a waste when most skills cost multiples of 20.

Some classes I don't know well at all, but it seems to me a Dagger build is the only build in the game that wants you to invest in 3 seperate trees.  Instead of the best talents being spread out over one tree, you're taking talents you don't necessarily want at all just to get to ones you do.  As a mage, I want the Arcane abilities.  So I go Arcane/Fire.  As a paladin, if you want defense, you focus on Protection.  If you want healing, you focus on Holy.

I'm not arguing viability of any of these builds.  But in most examples I can think of, a character focuses on one tree while going to the 3rd or 4th level in another tree.  The 3rd tree is usually completely ignorable.  Why waste any talents in it, it's preventing you from going higher up elsewhere?  A dagger rogue doesn't really have that option.
[right][snapback]68342[/snapback][/right]

Dunno if you've tried Vigor, but all the rogues I know who have it love it. *shrug* I don't know personally, of course.

[playingtokrush]

Dunno if you've tried Vigor, but all the rogues I know who have it love it. *shrug* I don't know personally, of course.
[right][snapback]68886[/snapback][/right]

Vigor never looked very useful to me. The only playing style that I could see it complementing is one revovling around frequent gouging (followed by backing off and resting to full energy). Considering most rogues never return to 100 energy after the start of a battle, I don't see how Vigor's + 10 energy over the course of a battle would help much.

[savaughn]

One note, savaughn: can you reply to specific posts instead of the thread in general?  Generic replies in threaded view gets confusing.
[right][snapback]68511[/snapback][/right]

D'oh! Will do! :blush: