Def Spec -- Should I, Really?

[Artega]

Its not any more good natured ribbing than calling you a immature ganker would be.
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The difference is that I would chuckle at the term "immature ganker", because I am. I gank people, I "steal" mineral nodes or flowers, and I'll corpse-camp if they're in Horde territory.

I'm well aware that there's actually plenty of PvP going on at the PvE servers, just that it's consensual, and not automatic. That's why I find the carebear term amusing, because it's somewhat oxymoronic. I'll stop using it if it bothers people so obviously, but I really don't see how it can be considered an insult, especially by people here, who are generally more level-headed than the script kiddies and Mr. Ubar's over at the official Blizzard boards.

[lfd]

I'll stop using it if it bothers people so obviously, but I really don't see how it can be considered an insult, especially by people here, who are generally more level-headed than the script kiddies and Mr. Ubar's over at the official Blizzard boards.
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Wow. Excuse me whilst I, unbalanced and oversensitive as I am, do most humbly thank you in all your magnanimity and altruism for such a gracious assent to a polite request.

</sarcasm>

[Brista]

Hi there.&nbsp; I just arrived.&nbsp; B)&nbsp; Nice to see an intelligent forum to discuss WoW strategy

Does anyone find this a little ironic in the light of some subsequent responses ;)

If I may offer some comments with the caveat that they are to be taken firmly with a pinch of salt as I'm only just about to start playing

First to start with an oxymoron: if you need to ask whether you're being bullied then you don't need to ask whether you're being bullied. This Paladin sounds like a horrible piece of work. I suggest you put this person on ignore, they'll only aggravate you and diminish the fun you get from the game

The next thing I'd say is that more people will get to 60 as the game goes on and the atmosphere may well lighten up. At the moment you almost all power-gamers, you've out-levelled the more laid-back players

Now it seems to me that being a main tank is a big responsibility. You've not done much tanking in WoW because you say you became tired of the meat-shield role but now you're considering jumping right in at the deep end. You sound like you could do it competently but do you want to be in the position where
- (if you do it exceptionally well) no one will raid without you and people expect you to drop everything and commit for 6 hours every time you log in
- you have the usual tank concerns - people running around waking stuff up, people over-nuking, people wanting to pull etc. Hopefully on a level 60 raid there is a strong leader who knows the dungeon but I imagine that won't always be the case.

However respeccing is quite easy isn't it? I imagine it's affordable for you to respec and try it out then change back if it's not fun

It comes down to how bored you are with not raiding. If there's no one to play with or there's no content left except the raid instances or if soloing is boring then there may not be much left to do with your warrior except raid. You could try a bit harder to get into raids as Warrior dps or you could organise your own with someone else as main tank. If none of those appeal then alts are your remaining option but it may be much harder to get an alt to 60 if your friends don't also remake than it was to level in a group (although twinking and power-levelling offset that to some extent)

[Darian]

Does anyone find this a little ironic in the light of some subsequent responses ;)[right][snapback]69544[/snapback][/right]

Yeah, I'm feeling like a bad influence now. ;)

First to start with an oxymoron: if you need to ask whether you're being bullied then you don't need to ask whether you're being bullied. This Paladin sounds like a horrible piece of work. I suggest you put this person on ignore, they'll only aggravate you and diminish the fun you get from the game

Well, it's annoying, but it's not quite as bad as all that. The question was really more intended to be "is he trying to get me to play the way he wants me to play, or is he really giving me sound advice?"

(And ignoring him would be... impolitic; we all know one another in RL.)

Now it seems to me that being a main tank is a big responsibility. You've not done much tanking in WoW because you say you became tired of the meat-shield role but now you're considering jumping right in at the deep end.

Oh, not at all, actually. I'd never dream of running off to Stratholme tonight offering my services as main tank; in fact, I won't main tank anywhere unless either the entire group is going somewhere completely new and we all expect to have to learn the tricks or I already know the instance like the back of my hand. To me, any other course of action is sheer stupidity.

You sound like you could do it competently but do you want to be in the position where
- (if you do it exceptionally well) no one will raid without you and people expect you to drop everything and commit for 6 hours every time you log in

Haha! Nah, I'm perfectly okay with people raiding without me and not expecting me to drop everything and go with them. ;) I just want to be able to ask if I can go and get a positive and enthusiastic response, and I don't want situations where I am asked to go and then people are upset because I don't play my character the way they think it should be played. If I'm playing it badly, that's one thing; if I'm playing it properly and just not meeting their expectations of what my class should be, that's another.

However respeccing is quite easy isn't it? I imagine it's affordable for you to respec and try it out then change back if it's not fun

Oh, the mechanism certainly is, and as long as you only do it twice it's not exactly pricey. I just don't want to go respec my character and then be sitting in the middle of Scholomance with a dozen people expecting me to be competent while I'm trying to figure out how I'm supposed to be playing him with a new talent tree... :o

If none of those appeal then alts are your remaining option but it may be much harder to get an alt to 60 if your friends don't also remake than it was to level in a group (although twinking and power-levelling offset that to some extent)

Our surviving group (60 priest, hunter, me) are running a set of alts together as well, so not an issue there. It's not that I'm bored, I'm just trying to determine whether the perception out there really is that just because my name sits above the word "warrior" that I'm expected to fill this ONE role.

[Mavfin]

[snip a whole bunch]

It's not that I'm bored, I'm just trying to determine whether the perception out there really is that just because my name sits above the word "warrior" that I'm expected to fill this ONE role.
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And the answer is that you can play your warrior any way you please, and if someone *expects* you to play it a certain way, find a different groupmate. I've got a tank warrior. I meshed wonderfully with a 2-hand DPS warrior in an instance. We didn't have a rogue in the group (warrior, warrior, priest, mage, hunter), so he stayed in Battle Stance and took over the melee DPS role with his big nasty 2-handed axe, Overpower, and Execute, and we had a great time. The hunter's pet took over off-tank duties. I held the mobs for the other warrior to chop into chunks while the mage fried them. Lotsa dead mobs that night. :P :D

It's all about what *you want to do*. Of course, you have to be adaptable/flexible enough to fill a group's needs if you wish to be invited, but you don't have to be pigeonholed because you're a warrior, either.

[Darian]

It's all about what *you want to do*.&nbsp; Of course, you have to be adaptable/flexible enough to fill a group's needs if you wish to be invited, but you don't have to be pigeonholed because you're a warrior, either.
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Right... I know that, but the problem is that not everyone does, and sometimes "everyone" is actually right. I guess the thing I'm wrestling with is not the question of whether I'm playing my class wrong. It's the question of whether the perception that the arms/fury build is gimped and ineffective is a perception which has merit, or is just plain dumb.

But the feedback I'm getting here is that there's certainly no legitimate reason why a character specced like mine should be disregarded, so I'll just lightly tweak in respec, and concentrate on "bein' the best there is at what I do," in the words of a great Canadian. ;)

[Mavfin]

Right... I know that, but the problem is that not everyone does, and sometimes "everyone" is actually right.&nbsp; I guess the thing I'm wrestling with is not the question of whether I'm playing my class wrong. [right][snapback]69552[/snapback][/right]

And, I've found that 'everyone' is almost universally *wrong*, because of twisted perceptions/expectations of what things should be like. So, I usually ignore 'everyone' and do my own thing, and find plenty of people doing the same. Of course, that means I'm Variant Scum, too, so YMMV. :P :shuriken:

[KiloVictor]

Wow.&nbsp; Excuse me whilst I, unbalanced and oversensitive as I am, do most humbly thank you in all your magnanimity and altruism for such a gracious assent to a polite request.

</sarcasm>
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And while we're at it, I'd like to request that posters either

i) refrain from dry irony and wit, or
ii) clearly demarcate all such displays with IEEE-standard HTML extensions denoting same, as shown above.

Not all of us are capable of recognizing ironic intent, and we wouldn't want to offend the cognitively impaired by excluding them from our topical discourse.

Kv

PS - Back (marginally) to topic, I find the server terms "carebear" and "gankfest" that I've seen used in the WoW community to be hilarious. It's gaming slang as far as I can see, not some coded lexicon of discrimination. Perhaps this is a product of our "politically correct" (hate that Orewellan term) times, but if somebody uses a term like this in humour, what's the issue?

I mean, if somebody's using the term with derogatory intent, surely the overall content and tone of the post will be enough to condemn them, without having to play word police, no?

[Tal]

PS - Back (marginally) to topic, I find the server terms "carebear" and "gankfest" that I've seen used in the WoW community to be hilarious. It's gaming slang as far as I can see, not some coded lexicon of discrimination. Perhaps this is a product of our "politically correct" (hate that Orewellan term)&nbsp; times, but if somebody uses a term like this in humour, what's the issue?

I mean, if somebody's using the term with derogatory intent, surely the overall content and tone of the post will be enough to condemn them, without having to play word police, no?
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Gay is also "gaming slang" and it still doesn't make it any more correct to use it in polite company. Some folks will defend to their last breath that when they referred to something as "gay" or "ghey" in a negative fashion that they were only joking and that folks should stop being so uptight. E.g. Those that play on the gay server will have no idea what its like to play on the PvP server.

Common useage doesn't make it any less derogatory of a word.

[Artega]

And, I've found that 'everyone' is almost universally *wrong*, because of twisted perceptions/expectations of what things should be like.&nbsp; So, I usually ignore 'everyone' and do my own thing, and find plenty of people doing the same.&nbsp; Of course, that means I'm Variant Scum, too, so YMMV.&nbsp; :P&nbsp; :shuriken:
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Of course. Everyone's always wrong, because you're always right :)

No, that's not a personal shot at you :P

Mav's pretty much right. Using a big hammer and going to town is certainly viable if you're not expected to do serious tanking, and it's the only viable solo-PvP route available. However, you should always keep a trained 1h weapon and board in your packs at all times for those times that you DO need to tank.

And, contrary to popular belief (and what I've said many times, embarassingly enough :) ), Protection Warriors CAN do fairly well in group PvP (silence and stun make for incredible disruptive potential), though it's not quite as "HULK WANT SMASH BAD GUY" as the typical Fury/Arms or Arms/Fury build is. Once I get my mitts on a decent 1h weapon (aiming for TIMMAH!'s mace or Rivendare's sword, though Ironfoe is always an option :) ), I'll let you know how it turns out.

[Quark]

Gay is also "gaming slang" and it still doesn't make it any more correct to use it in polite company. Some folks will defend to their last breath that when they referred to something as "gay" or "ghey" in a negative fashion that they were only joking and that folks should stop being so uptight. E.g. Those that play on the gay server will have no idea what its like to play on the PvP server.

Common useage doesn't make it any less derogatory of a word.
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*Sigh*

Now I'm having GFrazier flashbacks. Thankfully he doesn't peruse our forums anymore ...

[Lord BEEF]

Onyxia has been slain on the Archimonde server with the tanking warrior using an arms/fury build. Not a single point in protection.

So no, it's not necessary.


However, as others have indicated, a light investment in the protection tree will go a long way. Personally I have 5 in the fury tree for cruelty, 32 in arms to get mortal strike, and 14 in protection to get shield specialization, 1 point in improved shield block, 5 in toughness, and 3 in improved revenge.

This gives me maximum armor, high number of blocks, and revenge that stuns 40% of the time. Honestly it'd hard to tell much of a difference between this and when I had nearly 30 in protection.

However my performance when flying solo and on the battlefield is worlds different.

[Raziel]

*shrug*

I'm Protection specced on Stormrage and I like it. It suits me. Can you tank without it? Sure - talents aren't meant to define a character, they're meant to nudge it a little. Going Protection spec won't make or break your tanking ability, it will just help a little. It won't make or break your soloing ability either, it will just slow you down a little.

PvP, now there is a whole different ballgame ;)

[Malakar]

And while we're at it, I'd like to request that posters either

i) refrain from dry irony and wit, or
ii) clearly demarcate all such displays with IEEE-standard HTML extensions denoting same, as shown above.

Not all of us are capable of recognizing ironic intent, and we wouldn't want to offend the cognitively impaired by excluding them from our topical discourse.
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Your attempt at mocking Tal's request failed miserably. Your request is actually reasonable, aside from the stipulation of HTML code.

Your attitude on the matter would lead me to believe you've not yet misinterpreted sarcasm in written word. Or, more likely, you just haven't realized it. When you get stuck with it, you'll likely blame the writer for not including any clue. So do yourself a favor, and don't be a hypocrit.

[KiloVictor]

Your attempt at mocking Tal's request failed miserably. Your request is actually reasonable, aside from the stipulation of HTML code.

Your attitude on the matter would lead me to believe you've not yet misinterpreted sarcasm in written word. Or, more likely, you just haven't realized it. When you get stuck with it, you'll likely blame the writer for not including any clue. So do yourself a favor, and don't be a hypocrit.
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Heh, good one! Almost had me thinking you were serious there. Oh, OK, I'll bite.

No, I've misinterpreted things often... it's a risk of communication among humans, not solely in the written realm. I'm an adult, I assume responsibility for both what I infer from sombody's post, and how I respond. Fortunately I'm not prone to blasting somebody for their writings unless they're clearly offensive - e.g. blatantly homophobic, racist, or otherwise vile. And where there's some doubt in context or intent, I'll usually seek clarification before attacking, lest I wind up making a fool of myself. Nothing like going off half-cocked to make one look an idiot. :)

I also consider the audience. If I thought that the term "carebear" was likely to offend, and I wanted to offend, I'd use it. If I didn't want to offend, I'd go with the safer "PvE". And anytime I'm misinterpreted because I missed the mark, I'll clarify.

My assumption in writing here is that posters are at a higher level of literacy and civility than (for example) the Offician WoW Forms. I expect based on that, that one can deploy a term in passing and not be subject to word police, unless one has clearly deployed that term in an effort to be offensive or controversial. I certainly don't expect ad-hominem smackdown for trotting out a bit of irony.

How does that make me a hypocrite?

Kv

PS <to the wider LL readership> - My apologies - I normally wouldn't respond to this, as it's well-enough off topic as is. However, I am now genuinely confused. Did I misjudge the temper of the boards and the audience here, or did I just happen to chime in on the right topic to get flamed?

<resumes lurking>

[savaughn]

Did I misjudge the temper of the boards and the audience here, or did I just happen to chime in on the right topic to get flamed?

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I can't speak as an authority, although I've lurked around here on and off for about five years so I think I've picked up the feel. The lounge runs more adult than most boards. It's also more relaxed and respectful than most boards. This means rather less sarcasm and snarky comments (something I have to control when I post here, since I'm pretty cynical by nature). This means that if someone says "that bothers me", the expected response is "Oh, sorry, I'll avoid that in the future".

There's been a couple of more prickly people around here. There's been some exceedingly sensitive people around here. Play to the middle and respect it when someone suggests you've swung too far one way or the other and call it good.

Edit: grabbed the wrong bit of quote

[Malakar]

What pissed me off about your post, was that it was mocking a reasonable request for a little respect.

Treesh had already stated in the thread:

I only asked him to not use the derogatory term because he's demonstrated in other threads that he has very little respect for people who play the game differently than he chooses to.

Though I've not seen this myself (I can't read every thread here), that's good enough for me to respect their request.


And no, I'm not exactly level-headed when angry.

[Taeme]

The debate over protection speccing boils down to how your style as a tank works. While it's nice to think we all tank the same, the truth is, players don't. You really have to show a willingness to experiment and get a grasp on how you like the specific abilities involved, as some fit your play style and some don't. I personally find myself swapping to berserk stance a lot for whirlwind and intercept, meaning I probably take more benefit from cruelty and improved intercept than a tank who prefers to use rage up on sundering multiple targets or who feels comfortable bloodraging. Not that I don't use sunder or bloodrage, just to say I lean on other abilities which you may not!

You may find you actually like protection spec and it makes it easier. You might find it doesn't. Do you actually NEED protection spec to be a good tank? No, you need talents that work with your mindset as a tank and so forth.

Yes. I'm oversensitive, my panties are in a wad and certainly am a pansy carebear. Never mind that the ability to kill someone in an online game has nothing to do with courage. It doesn't make you any better than me that you enjoy playing on the PvP server. [right][snapback]69527[/snapback][/right]

You know, to be really honest here, you ARE oversensitive. You guys completely derailed the topic and got really into some heated debate over a term that, more or less, means exactly what it's supposed to mean and you in fact are. Never mind any sort of debate between pvp and pve, the reactions are telling.

Why bother being insulted in the first place? You turn a useful thread into something ugly over a word that for all intents and purposes is just goofy nerd slang. How revolting.

[Tal]

You know, to be really honest here, you ARE oversensitive. You guys completely derailed the topic and got really into some heated debate over a term that, more or less, means exactly what it's supposed to mean and you in fact are. Never mind any sort of debate between pvp and pve, the reactions are telling.

Why bother being insulted in the first place? You turn a useful thread into something ugly over a word that for all intents and purposes is just goofy nerd slang. How revolting.
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I couldn't help but notice that you play on a PvP server. I also can't help but notice that many of the other supporters of the use of the term Carebear to refer to the PvE server also play on a PvP server. But since you brought up what the term means lets examine it together:

Source

Who are the Care Bears?

The Care Bears are a group of adorable, furry friends each with a special caring mission. They help teach people how to care. Every Care Bear wears a bright-colored tummy picture that tells the world who they are and what is their special area of caring.

In their cloud-land home, called Care-a-lot, the Care Bears help each other learn to care. Sometimes they magically bring a child with a special caring concern to Care-a-lot so that they can better teach them some of the finer points of being a caring person. Sometimes, too, the Care Bears have to speed down to Earth to help with some crisis in caring. Wherever the Care Bears go, and whatever the Care Bears do, in their soft, fuzzy, and funny way, they share their special gift of caring with everyone they meet.

Where is Care-A-Lot?

Wherever good feelings are nurtured and shared! Care-a-lot is where the Care Bears live. It's a star-speckled, rainbow-trimmed, cotton candy, cloud world that's as brightly beautiful as a summer sunset and as snug and loving as a mother's hug. Care-a-lot is a child's weightless wonderland—a "positively anything's possible" kind of place and a perfect playland. In the heart of Care-a-lot is Care-a-lot Castle, where the Care Bears gather to help others. It's home to the "Hall of the Heart", a beautiful gallery where the Care Bears meet around a heart-shaped table.

Where's Care-a-lot? It's here, it's there, it's everywhere there are hearts that love and those who care!

I fail to see how this describes exactly how I play the game. I also fail to see how this isn't a derogatory and insulting way to describe those of us who desire to enter combat on their own terms. PLEASE enlighten me on what I'm missing in the above description that is positive.

[Malakar]

I was going to edit my post, but I wanted to make sure Kilo sees this, so please excuse this double post.

Although I explained why I got pissed, I still owe you an apology. I went off on you too soon and too harsh.