Def Spec -- Should I, Really?

[Darian]

Hi there. I just arrived. B) Nice to see an intelligent forum to discuss WoW strategy (not that the official boards don't have their amusement value, but let's be real). And now that's out of the way, I'm going to start babbling incoherently, because I need sane advice from strategically-sound individuals.

I rolled up to 60 with my warrior basically either soloing or grouping with the same four people, with a few random exceptions in order to knock out a quest (once with Bolty, amusingly enough). Our group composition was me, pally, priest, hunter, mage. The paladin always took the main tank role, arguing that since he had all those nifty paladin survivability tools and about 1000 more armor than me, it made sense. Having given up on EQ because I was sick of being the meatshield, this didn't exactly bother me; in fact, I had initially chosen my Arms build for precisely that reason. I was able to off-tank perfectly well, and on those occasions when it was necessary for me to take point... well, my priest has never given me any grief, and I've gone duo with him more than any other members of that group.

Around the time we started hitting Maraudon, the paladin started badgering me to go respec defensive. For various reasons I won't go into, I had started getting annoyed with him well before this anyway, and honestly being told how to play my character wasn't exactly going to get me to go make a drastic change.

So, anyway, once the pally hit 60, it took him about 12 seconds to go join a hardcore raiding guild; ever since he's periodically asked me two things which boil down to "When are you going to abandon the guild you're the leader of and come join me?" and "When are you going to respec?" The mage tends to take his side in this, but then the mage also left the guild to join him. Their argument is that I'll never get invited to raids if I'm not defensive specced, although I have been on 15-20 man raids to BRS where the paladins were tanking. The priest and hunter, both of whom have stayed, have told me I need to do what I'm comfortable with, although the hunter has rolled up a defensive warrior and loves it.

Now, I have to admit I'm pretty used to my "take on two mobs, sweep and cleave, rinse and repeat" strategy (I'm convinced that this is the Warrior's primarystrength, as a fight between a sweep/cleave warrior and two mobs actually takes noticeably less time than a fight between said warrior and one mob), and now that I've actually begin grouping with other people on occasion, I'm getting used to changing stances and using some skills I'd previously just never needed to bother with. I think that's just an inherent drawback in grouping with the same people for three months, but what's done is done.

It's obvious I'm going to have to respec to some extent, because I have wasted points in the Arms tree, and I don't have Piercing Howl. I led a group through Temple the other day, which was my first real experience being main tank for longer than a couple of fights since beginning my WoW career, still never went into defensive stance at all, and everything was fine -- but then again, Temple isn't BRS either.

I'm pretty sure I know Artega's stance on this one :lol:. But I'm wondering if I'm just being stubborn -- both about being pressured, and about having become comfortable with my style of play -- or whether this really is something I should do for not only my own benefit, but for the benefit of those who will end up grouping with me. The comfort level is actually a pretty large concern; I'm almost convinced that if I do drastically respec, I'm going to have to roll up a new warrior and keep him in defensive stance just to get used to playing that way, because learning at 60 is a quick way to make unfriends and disinfluence people. :P But I'm also concerned about the question of whether it's something I even need to do.

So the root question is... am I really a liability with an Arms/Fury spec, and if so what's the best way to go about adjusting my mindset -- or am I just being harangued by a disenchanted paladin who's decided he doesn't want to tank after refusing to even allow me to for three months?

[Tal]

Howdy!

I don't think you necessarily need to respec to defensive to be in on these raids. My opinion is to spec your warrior to be what you want to play. Be aware of how to play as at tank and most especially as a off-tank. Most raids need just a couple of main tanks, the rest are offtanks. You would fit into that role exceptionally well. :)

Though my advice may not be the best as my main is a tanking paladin. :)

[Mavfin]

Was going to reply and thought I cancelled. Oops.

[Treesh]

I haven't hit 60 with any of my characters, but I do fiddle around a lot trying to find new ways to play. My 37 priestess runs with a crazy 37 gnome warrior who's defensive specced. He's been playing around with other stances and other tools to see if he's missing out. Even at these low levels, when things get rough, he reflexively falls back to the methods he knows works and what "feels" right and he's pretty unstoppable. As Artega has said many times, Arms/Fury works really well for him - it fits his chosen playstyle perfectly. The defensive spec fits GG's playstyle. When your talent point distribution matches your personality/playstyle (regardless of what it is), your characters will be better than if you were forced into what someone else says is best. If it were me (and keep in mind that this is coming from someone with 17 characters and is still itching to make more), I'd go ahead and make that baby warrior anyway, building him/her defensive from the start. You'll soon learn if defensive matches how you really like to play and gives you more leeway for mess-ups along the way. Those first 15 levels fly by anyway. ;) If you find out in the brief time that it takes you to get to 20 or 30 with the baby warrior that you are enjoying the defensive spec more or are having a much easier time than the first time you ran through that stuff with your main warrior, then you can respec your main to defensive if you want with less risk of getting a reputation for being a liability in instances because you've already learned the basics of the new tricks with defensive.

Edit: I forgot to mention that GG and I have built twin gnome warriors on the RP server so he can see just what all the fuss is about with Arms/Fury spec. My twin is going defensive spec. If we can just get them some more playtime so they get big enough to really tell the difference between their spec choices, we'll see firsthand the differences the specializing can make. :)

[Darian]

Though my advice may not be the best as my main is a tanking paladin. :)
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Actually, Tal... I was very interested in your opinion specifically, since I know you're familiar with both classes and I've read a few of your exchanges with Artega on the subject.

I think maybe I'm just worrying too much over nothing, in that a lot of players in this game suffer from the old EQ mindset wherein each class has a very specific role and if you're not meeting their expectations, all of a sudden you're a lousy fill-in-the-blank. There are not 8 classes in this game; it's as if there are more like 80.

[Darian]

If you find out in the brief time that it takes you to get to 20 or 30 with the baby warrior that you are enjoying the defensive spec more or are having a much easier time than the first time you ran through that stuff with your main warrior, then you can respec your main to defensive if you want with less risk of getting a reputation for being a liability in instances because you've already learned the basics of the new tricks with defensive.[right][snapback]69433[/snapback][/right]

Yeah, I'm not interested in people thinking I bought myself on eBay. ;)

I probably will pop a baby warrior regardless, just because. I like tinkering with builds, I'm just paranoid about doing it with a main character who's a guild leader. Reputation matters, after all.

[Mavfin]

Actually, Tal... I was very interested in your opinion specifically, since I know you're familiar with both classes and I've read a few of your exchanges with Artega on the subject.

I think maybe I'm just worrying too much over nothing, in that a lot of players in this game suffer from the old EQ mindset wherein each class has a very specific role and if you're not meeting their expectations, all of a sudden you're a lousy fill-in-the-blank.  There are not 8 classes in this game; it's as if there are more like 80.
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And that's why people like I (and Treesh from the way it sounds) have a zillion characters to try.

And don't let someone push you into a style that doesn't fit you. You should probably be familiar with the defensive aggro-puller warrior that tanks for instance groups, just so you can do that well, but don't *respec* for it unless you intend to do a LOT of it.

[Artega]

Actually, I'm going to go ahead and say that at least some Protection (namely improved shield block and maybe improved revenge and/or concussion blow) will do wonders for your tanking abilities.

However, it's widely accepted that throwing ANY points into Protection will neuter your damage output, and that will place a major crimp on your PvP performance. If PvP isn't a concern (e.g., you're on a carebear server or one of those RP servers that apparently refuse to make sense by being PvP), then you can probably get away with Protection. You'll most definitely be able to find raid groups more easily as Protection, since there's never a shortage of Arms/Fury or Fury/Arms Warriors.

Frankly, I'd suggest that you tell the Paladin to go spec Holy while you spec Protection. Those are the two rarest specs for the respective classes (as far as I've seen), which means neither of you will have issues getting into groups.

Then again, raid groups will always want Pallies for that cheesy insta-Cleanse they have :P

[Tal]

Actually, Tal... I was very interested in your opinion specifically, since I know you're familiar with both classes and I've read a few of your exchanges with Artega on the subject.
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*blush*

I personally prescribe to the following advice:

"Proper stance, as always, is the beginning of good technique."
"Stance IS everything."

Knowing the right time to use a stance based on circumstance is the key to being an effective warrior. Talents exist to provide flavor for your character they are not meant to button hole folks into playing the game in only one way at a certain level.

[Treesh]

(e.g., you're on a carebear server
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Please don't call it a carebear server. It's very insulting and you can't even use the excuse "it's easier to type than 'normal' or 'PvE'" because it isn't. ;)

[Mavfin]

[snip]

(e.g., you're on a carebear server or one of those RP servers that apparently refuse to make sense by being PvP

[snip]

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Please refrain from insulting people who do not play the same way you do. You're welcome to your PvP style, please don't insult the PvE style of play. Thank you.

[Tal]

Hi. Tal the Carebear reporting in. I'm proud to be a "carebear" if it means that I'm not lumped in with folks who exist to ruin someone else's fun.

This isn't to say that I don't like to PvP. As anyone who has been on Stormrage can attest I LOVE to PvP. I duel frequently, will respond to global defense alerts and will go a-raiding. I've never backed down from a PvP challenge yet on Stormrage and I don't plan on starting now. Hell I've even duelled a crazy gnome clad only in a dress!

What is the above leading up to? Its to show I'm not a coward. But there are times that I want to go my own way and turn in quests without being zerged by Horde. And given Blizzard's lack of implementing any kind of honor system to cut down on immature ganking I'm not inclined to take up residence on a PvP server.

I understand that you don't care for the PvE server. I can understand that you prefer to PvP, the constant danger and thrill of the hunt. But you can certainly understand why I might take exception to your calling the PvE server the "Carebear" server in a derogatory and inflammatory fashion. :)

[Olon97]

I'm more of a cabbage patch kid myself.... but back on topic:

In my opinion, you can get a lot out of Protection with as little as 13 points (Shield Spec, Bloodrage, Toughness, and 1 shield block). For pre-Molten Core raids you can get some great utility up to 23-25 points (stuns, shield bash silence, imp. disarm come to mind). In non-stunnable/silenceable/disarmable situations (bosses & most of MC I'm told), defiance, improved taunt, and imp. shield wall may or may not add to your effectiveness. If you're having issues holding aggro, then shield discipline+bash may be necessary, many people claim to hold aggro well enough without it.

More important, I would say, is making gear choices with the mindset of a primary tank. Stamina, +defense, +% dodge and of course the armor value itself all being of primary interest with agility (dodge/parry/block boost) and strength (amount blocked boost) still being of interest. Having a golf bag of resist gear to switch in (esp. rings) is good too.

My suggestion would be trying the following build keeping sweeping strikes while getting group friendly talents from other trees:
- Arms to Sweeping Strikes (avoiding rend/deep wounds as long as the debuff slot cap is an issue). 21 points.
- Protection to Imp Shield block 1. 13 points.
- Fury to Enrage 2 (including piercing howl). 17 points.

[Boutros]

If you aren't interested in Protection, you shouldn't spec it.

If I were going to be a main tank in a raid, I'd think about going 31 Arms 5 Fury 15 Protection, but no more than that. Really you can get all of the mitigation talents with a very small investment in the tree.

As far as the carebear issue, I find it funny to call people carebears. For years and years I was very anti PvP and I was always frustrated when someone threw around the word carebear. Now that I play PvP and enjoy it, when I call someone called a carebear it's like an inside joke that only I get. You certainly have the right to be offended by whatever you want, but consider that Artega and others may be using the term in jest and not as a perjorative. Also consider that maybe you are being the tiniest bit thin skinned.

[Treesh]

As far as the carebear issue, I find it funny to call people carebears. For years and years I was very anti PvP and I was always frustrated when someone threw around the word carebear. Now that I play PvP and enjoy it, when I call someone called a carebear it's like an inside joke that only I get. You certainly have the right to be offended by whatever you want, but consider that Artega and others may be using the term in jest and not as a perjorative. Also consider that maybe you are being the tiniest bit thin skinned.
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I was never anti-PvP in WoW and in fact am quite enjoying my time on the PvP server. I also really enjoy my time on the PvE and RP servers. I only asked him to not use the derogatory term because he's demonstrated in other threads that he has very little respect for people who play the game differently than he chooses to. If he didn't have that history, I never would have mentioned it. And an inside joke that only you get is never funny, even when the "you" in question is me. ;)

[Tal]

As far as the carebear issue, I find it funny to call people carebears. For years and years I was very anti PvP and I was always frustrated when someone threw around the word carebear. Now that I play PvP and enjoy it, when I call someone called a carebear it's like an inside joke that only I get. You certainly have the right to be offended by whatever you want, but consider that Artega and others may be using the term in jest and not as a perjorative. Also consider that maybe you are being the tiniest bit thin skinned.
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I fail to see how being called a carebear can be considered a "jest" that I would wish to laugh along with. It certainly stinks of being laughed at in terms of WoW's PvP versus PvE environment.

It would be much the same as calling the PvP server the "Immature Gankers" server. Some will embrace the description, others will raise their hackles over it. My stating that its just a inside joke that only I get will do little to smooth over those whose hackles have been raised.

YMMV.

[Mavfin]

I fail to see how being called a carebear can be considered a "jest" that I would wish to laugh along with. It certainly stinks of being laughed at in terms of WoW's PvP versus PvE environment.

It would be much the same as calling the PvP server the "Immature Gankers" server. Some will embrace the description, others will raise their hackles over it. My stating that its just a inside joke that only I get will do little to smooth over those whose hackles have been raised.

YMMV.
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And that's the point. Lack of respect. It's not needed here on the forums. Period.

[Boutros]

It would be much the same as calling the PvP server the "Immature Gankers" server. Some will embrace the description, others will raise their hackles over it. My stating that its just a inside joke that only I get will do little to smooth over those whose hackles have been raised.[right][snapback]69495[/snapback][/right]

I wouln't embrace that description and I wouldn't be offended. I just wouldn't care. If people thought it was funny I'd respect their right to entertain themselves. And the carebear description has some inherent humor. I like to think about people on the PvE servers doing the Care Bear Stare at their bitter enemies. It's a funny visual. But when you think about people on a PvP server you might think about lowbies in Redridge getting corpse camped by a level 60 Rogue. And if you find that funny or sad that's cool with me.

[Artega]

*sigh*

Apparently everyone is ubersensitive now. I used to use the carebear term all the time, and people accepted for what it was - good-natured ribbing. Apparently it's an insult used to start fights currently, judging from the replies.

Call me a murderous psychopath or griefer - I'm not gonna get my panties in a wad over it. I'll just chuckle and call you a pansy carebear :)

Anyway, back on-topic:

As I said earlier, any points in Protection will hurt your damage output, but once you decide to make the jump, you need to decide how deep to go. You can get the first golden ability, Improved Shield Block, only 11 points deep. 14 points deep will get you Improved Bloodrage (resulting in about 7% HP loss) and Last Stand. Going deeper will get you Concussion Blow (21 points) and/or Improved Shield Bash (22/23 points.) Shield Discipline's pretty nifty, but it's not really worth the 31 points, IMO.

I'd suggest you figure out a way to squeeze in Piercing Howl into your build; the AOE snare effect is great at keeping mobs from tearing off after the squishies, and it's useful to keep mobs rooted in place so Warlocks and Mages can AOE the crap out of them, assuming you're not a Tauren with Stomp :)

[Tal]

*sigh*

Apparently everyone is ubersensitive now.  I used to use the carebear term all the time, and people accepted for what it was - good-natured ribbing.  Apparently it's an insult used to start fights currently, judging from the replies.

Call me a murderous psychopath or griefer - I'm not gonna get my panties in a wad over it.  I'll just chuckle and call you a pansy carebear :)

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Yes. I'm oversensitive, my panties are in a wad and certainly am a pansy carebear. Never mind that the ability to kill someone in an online game has nothing to do with courage. It doesn't make you any better than me that you enjoy playing on the PvP server. It certainly doesn't make me any better than you that I enjoy the PvE environment. Thus far I feel I have shown you respect and courtesy in regards to your choice in servers. I would ask that you extend that same courtesy to those of us who play on the PvE server. Its not any more good natured ribbing than calling you a immature ganker would be.

Respect allows for the exchange of information and is the foundation of debate. Insults do nothing to further that goal. Please respect our wishes and drop the word carebear from your vocabulary here on the lounge.

Thanks.