Blizzards & criticals

[Brista]

This is a "does this work?" type question

Consider the following talents

Improved Blizzard - 3/3 points
Adds a chill effect to your Blizzard spell. This effect lowers the target's movement speed to 35% of normal. Lasts 8.50 seconds.

Shatter - 5/5 points
Increases the critical strike chance of your frost spells against frozen targets by 50%.

Frostbite - 5/5 points
Gives your chill effects a 15% chance to freeze the target for 5 seconds.


Do these have the cumulative effect that something inside your Blizzard, getting hit periodically is likely to become frozen and once frozen will then suffer the rest of the Blizzard at a +50% critical chance?

There was a Diablo 2 tactic where one cast a Blizzard then ran little loops around it so that the monsters in chasing you would never quite leave the area of effect. I'm wondering whether this might work in WoW

[Pantalaimon]

Well blizzard is channeling so you have to be standing still for it to still be blizzarding, so that wouldn't work.

In regards to blizzards criticalling at all, I recall in beta that they never did critical and that was reported as a bug, but not having a mage that uses blizzard in release, I don't know if that bug has been fixed or ignored or declared a feature.

[Brista]

Well blizzard is channeling so you have to be standing still for it to still be blizzarding, so that wouldn't work.

In regards to blizzards criticalling at all, I recall in beta that they never did critical and that was reported as a bug, but not having a mage that uses blizzard in release, I don't know if that bug has been fixed or ignored or declared a feature.
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OK, thanks for that, I'm quite intrigued by this skill

[Skan did mention it in the mage guide, I overlooked it:

Frostbite

.....

An Improved Blizzard can freeze things with this, but you’ll need something else to crit them with – Blizzard doesn’t do that, to my experience.

Blizzard doesn't seem (from what you say and from what Skan says in the pinned thread) to have much use at all (from my newbie's perspective)

Now in solo, suppose you herded a huge group of mobs (say about 20) then put a Blizzard between you and them I imagine they'd plough right through it. Still even if movement was slowed to 25% with talents it wouldn't take them very long to get to you. Some would get frozen which is nice. Still with Blizzard hitting at best once per second and Frostbite chance to proc 15% it won't stop a crowd

Can you use Ice Block or Ice Barrier to tank for it? Ice Block really because Ice Barrier wouldn't last very long if one were tanking by a big horde. I imagine Ice Block prevents you from channeling but I'd like to check

Next question, really aimed at the tanks. Is Blizzard something you welcome (damage and snare) or does it make aggro control too hard?

[Skandranon]

Now in solo, suppose you herded a huge group of mobs (say about 20) then put a Blizzard between you and them I imagine they'd plough right through it. Still even if movement was slowed to 25% with talents it wouldn't take them very long to get to you. Some would get frozen which is nice. Still with Blizzard hitting at best once per second and Frostbite chance to proc 15% it won't stop a crowd
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From what I can tell, the snare is checked only once, at the beginning of the spell, and not again for any succeeding waves. Anything outside the AoE when you cast it will not be snared.

[Brista]

From what I can tell, the snare is checked only once, at the beginning of the spell, and not again for any succeeding waves.  Anything outside the AoE when you cast it will not be snared.
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Heh ok, I guess I'll abandon the notion of an AE Frost Mage in the style of cow-herding D2 Javazons for now

Not that I think it might not be there hidden somewhere but I'm having trouble seeing a strategy from what seems to be an awesome talent tree supporting a dismal spell selection

[LochnarITB]

Heh ok, I guess I'll abandon the notion of an AE Frost Mage in the style of cow-herding D2 Javazons for now

Not that I think it might not be there hidden somewhere but I'm having trouble seeing a strategy from what seems to be an awesome talent tree supporting a dismal spell selection
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From what I can tell, the snare is checked only once, at the beginning of the spell, and not again for any succeeding waves.  Anything outside the AoE when you cast it will not be snared.
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I just went back and checked to make sure I wasn't remembering something that wasn't there. The spell does check for the slow each wave. Baddies entering the blizzard zone after the first wave will still be slowed. They also have the chance to be frozen if you have invested in that talent.

There are a couple problems with using blizzard. As stated earlier, at this time, blizzard does not crit. This reduces its damage output. There is also the problem of getting adds to go through the area of effect. If you cast it at distance, there is a chance that adds will not path through it. If you cast it close to you, the baddies are going to be on you in a few steps anyway. The slow effect does not slow their attack speed, just movement. Blizzard combined with frostbite also suffers with the random number generator. It can be very streaky. This means that you will often see an entire group frozen but you will also see none frozen at other times.

That being said, frost build is viable, particularly combined with points in arcane. Using blizzard on groups you can get two ends of the spectrum. If the entire group is frozen, you have time to approach and use improved arcane explosion a time or two before they break. IAE does crit and can do more damage than blizzard. In the case that none freeze, they are still slowed. You can pull away from the group and blizzard again. For singles, you can pull with frostbolt. With the reach talent, you have the range of the fireball. It won't do as much damage as a fireball, but it will slow so you can usually get off an extra shot. When they get in your face, the points in arcane will allow good damage with arcane missiles.

Also, if you do go to the top (bottom?) of the frost tree, you get the fun spell, ice barrier. Even against the hardest hitting bad guys, it gives you a short time to catch up on your reading or do your nails or anything else that needs doing such as bandaging or evocation or a couple uninterrupted damage spells. It also gives a nice little bubble graphic and a frost fog trail when you run around. B)

Frost build can work. You will have to be more patient. Fire and arcane do more damage so they kill faster. Frost also seems to be less cookie cutter if you, like me, like to do things a little different than the masses. I love my frost mage. I find myself drawn back to play him all the time, even with the frustrations I am feeling with WoW in general. If you want to give frost a run, it only costs a little gold to respec if you aren't happy with it.

[Skandranon]

I just went back and checked to make sure I wasn't remembering something that wasn't there.  The spell does check for the slow each wave.  Baddies entering the blizzard zone after the first wave will still be slowed.  They also have the chance to be frozen if you have invested in that talent.
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Hm. If that's true, then what really happens is that slow is checked for each mob only once. Points in Permafrost are required to extend the Blizzard slow time so that the mobs stay in for the whole spell, and if it re-checked (and re-snared) for each wave, points in Permafrost would be unnecessary.

[Magicbag]

One thing that definately needs some testing, but that I have noticed:

Blizzard doesn't get resisted or have its damage output changed. At lvl 60 with nothing in the frost tree, everything in the radius is taking 152 a tick. I'd be interesting in testing with +frost damage gear as well as talents.

-MB

[Pantalaimon]

There was something about blizzard in the patch notes today:

Improved Blizzard - Chill duration reduced to 1.5 seconds (4.5 seconds w/ Permafrost) and refreshes with each damage tick rather than at the beginning of the spell. In addition, a target that resists the damage will also resist the chill effect.

So there you go, skan, problem solved :P If they don't resist they'll stay chilled while in the AoE

[Skandranon]

There was something about blizzard in the patch notes today:

Improved Blizzard - Chill duration reduced to 1.5 seconds (4.5 seconds w/ Permafrost) and refreshes with each damage tick rather than at the beginning of the spell. In addition, a target that resists the damage will also resist the chill effect.

So there you go, skan, problem solved :P If they don't resist they'll stay chilled while in the AoE
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As a matter of fact, this patch note confirms that Blizzard worked the way I observed it to work, and not as Loch observed it to work. That said, it will get better next patch, and I will have to see how that does or does not help.

[Brista]

As a matter of fact, this patch note confirms that Blizzard worked the way I observed it to work, and not as Loch observed it to work.  That said, it will get better next patch, and I will have to see how that does or does not help.
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I wonder if this new mechanic will let the Frostbite/Shatter combo work

[LochnarITB]

As a matter of fact, this patch note confirms that Blizzard worked the way I observed it to work, and not as Loch observed it to work.
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Sigh. Since when does what Blizzard posts confirm what actually happens in game? Go test it yourself before you tell me I'm wrong. (Can you test it? Being fire spec'ed you don't have Improved Blizzard do you?) Stand at fireball range. Pull with a fireball. Drop a blizzard next to you. Watch what happens when the baddie hits the edge of the aoe - slowed. Back off and continue to watch. The baddie is slowed until the effect wears off at which point it resumes full speed pursuit. As I said:

Baddies entering the blizzard zone after the first wave will still be slowed.

[Skandranon]

Sigh.  Since when does what Blizzard posts confirm what actually happens in game?  Go test it yourself before you tell me I'm wrong.  (Can you test it?  Being fire spec'ed you don't have Improved Blizzard do you?) 
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I can't test it, no. And I really do believe you. I'm just not used to Blizzard being completely flat-out wrong in their patch notes. Misleading, incomplete, sure, but I don't think they've ever made a completely erroneous statement. Until now, I guess.

[LochnarITB]

Misleading
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This could indeed be another case of them misleading us. If they had changed

rather than at the beginning of the spell

to "rather than at the beginning of the spell's effect on each monster", it would have fit what currently happens with Improved Blizzard.

[playingtokrush]

Frost build can work.  You will have to be more patient.  Fire and arcane do more damage so they kill faster.  Frost also seems to be less cookie cutter if you, like me, like to do things a little different than the masses.  I love my frost mage.  I find myself drawn back to play him all the time, even with the frustrations I am feeling with WoW in general.  If you want to give frost a run, it only costs a little gold to respec if you aren't happy with it.
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Actually, with an investment in the frost tree, frost spells do more sustained DPS than arcane. A heavy fire or frost spec'd mage will outdamage a heavy arcane spec'd one in standard solo combat.

[LochnarITB]

Actually, with an investment in the frost tree, frost spells do more sustained DPS than arcane.
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Under what conditions and build? There are parts of the arcane tree that I consider essential to any mage. Uninterruptible arcane missiles, instant cast arcane explosion, clearcasting and evocation are must haves. One on one, under ideal conditions, frostbolt can do better than arcane missiles. Ideal conditions are freeze and crit on each cast. As someone once said, things go wrong. When the baddie gets in your face, uninterrupted arcane missiles do more dps than a stuttered frostbolt cast or cone of cold with its cooldown. For aoe, improved arcane explosion does better than blizzard due to the fact that blizzard does not crit. In real Azeroth use, I just don't see frost doing more dps. I still love playing my frost mage, if for no other reason than a preference for the visual and sound effects of the spells. :)

[playingtokrush]

Under what conditions and build?  There are parts of the arcane tree that I consider essential to any mage.  Uninterruptible arcane missiles, instant cast arcane explosion, clearcasting and evocation are must haves.  One on one, under ideal conditions, frostbolt can do better than arcane missiles.  Ideal conditions are freeze and crit on each cast.  As someone once said, things go wrong.  When the baddie gets in your face, uninterrupted arcane missiles do more dps than a stuttered frostbolt cast or cone of cold with its cooldown.  For aoe, improved arcane explosion does better than blizzard due to the fact that blizzard does not crit.  In real Azeroth use, I just don't see frost doing more dps.  I still love playing my frost mage, if for no other reason than a preference for the visual and sound effects of the spells.  :)
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Ideal conditions are not required for Frostbolt to outclass Arcane Missiles. With Improved Frostbolt alone, the DPS of Frostbolt is only marginally lower than Arcane Missiles (about 186 vs 192), when you factor in the other frost talents (6% extra frost damage is typical, 200% damage critical strikes instead of 100%, frequent critical strikes on targets after a Frost Nova), the sustained DPS of Frostbolt spamming on non-melee range targets exceeds that of Arcane Missiles (the damage of which can only be pumped by Arcane Instability, and somewhat indirectly by Arcane Focus).

I don't think any frost mage is going to be without Improved Arcane Missiles for when melee is the only option. However, as long as a frost mage isn't taking damage, frostbolt spamming will ensure greater damage over time. A good mage is almost guaranteed three Frostbolts on a target before it gets to melee range as long as the first one isn't resisted (four is possible in some situations with Arctic Reach). At that point he can fire blast and/or cone of cold, followed by a frost nova, back away, and get at least two more frost bolt casts before being forced into unavoidable melee. If the mob still has a significant amount of life, now would be the time for the mage's first Arcane Missiles.

Granted, fighting with Frostbolt over Arcane Missiles relies on procs, and will thus be prone to an occasional unlucky battle with no crits, on the whole Frostbolt will end things more quickly and/or with less health lost. Fighting with high latency would also lend more to casting Arcane Missiles instead of Frostbolt, since it requires fewer recasts, but hopefully that situation isn't a consideration for the player.

[LochnarITB]

Ideal conditions are not required for Frostbolt to outclass Arcane Missiles.
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You make this statement but then go on to describe ideal conditions, not perfect but ideal. Perfect would be the monster standing in place and letting you kill it from range. Ideal is what you have set up. Only on the slower approach monsters will you get 3-4 unstuttered casts of frostbolt if the monster is not frozen (approaches are often made without having a freeze proc). The faster ones, even with reach, will be on you somewhere in the third cast. At that point you can choose to make the next cast or pause to frost nova at its reach and cast frostbolts again. If the bad guy does get to you before you frost nova, with the time it takes to back a couple steps so you're out of melee range, it will break in time for it to stutter you at the end of the second cast. You are now in melee until frost nova cools down so arcane missiles start flying and fireblasts and coc's are popped when available.

It is much easier to achieve ideal fights if you are out hunting random bad guys lower in level. However, if you are questing, you tend to be fighting monsters close to your level and in busier areas. Linked pulls often happen. Adds frequently mess with your fights. While true of fire and arcane as well, frost seems to be the most reliant on things going right and all talents working in sync.

Of course, this all comes from me playing my frost/arcane setup to cap and a lower level fire mage as well as observing other fire and arcane mages. It could just be that I suck but that's OK because I still have fun playing with my frost mage when I can find good solo content I haven't already done or the rare good group for questing or instances.

[playingtokrush]

You make this statement but then go on to describe ideal conditions, not perfect but ideal.  Perfect would be the monster standing in place and letting you kill it from range.  Ideal is what you have set up.  Only on the slower approach monsters will you get 3-4 unstuttered casts of frostbolt if the monster is not frozen (approaches are often made without having a freeze proc).  The faster ones, even with reach, will be on you somewhere in the third cast.  At that point you can choose to make the next cast or pause to frost nova at its reach and cast frostbolts again.  If the bad guy does get to you before you frost nova, with the time it takes to back a couple steps so you're out of melee range, it will break in time for it to stutter you at the end of the second cast.  You are now in melee until frost nova cools down so arcane missiles start flying and fireblasts and coc's are popped when available.

Just so you know, the terms "ideal" and "perfect" tend to be synonyms, but that's not particularly important.

The situations I describe are simply average, not ideal.

Initiating combat: With appropriate frost talents, I almost never have a problem getting 3 frostbolts off before a melee mob lands a hit on me. With no crits or freeze procs, I would still be achieving similar damage to arcane missiles spamming.

After frost nova: I use mouselook and strafing to be able to quickly escape to about 15 yards away from the frozen mob. I will end up initiating my next frostbolt cast only 2-4 seconds after the nova went off. Even if the freeze breaks from the first frostbolt, my second frostbolt will fire off uninterrupted before the mob is in melee range.

It is not until this point (at least five frostbolts cast unless frost nova was resisted), that I am forced into melee with the mob. When factoring in that cone of cold, and most especially ice armor, can also proc a freeze, along with the relatively likely connecting of frost nova, it is expected that I would have had about one frostbolt crit. That one crit is enough to push my DPS above that of arcane missiles, being that the baseline DPS of frostbolt is only slightly less than that of arcane missiles.

Describing a situation where the initial frostbolt connects and frost nova is not resisted is hardly "ideal." It's more a description of the expected combat scenario.

It is much easier to achieve ideal fights if you are out hunting random bad guys lower in level.  However, if you are questing, you tend to be fighting monsters close to your level and in busier areas.  Linked pulls often happen.  Adds frequently mess with your fights.  While true of fire and arcane as well, frost seems to be the most reliant on things going right and all talents working in sync.

Of course. Frost talents are built the most around synergy, which is why frost spells aren't worth casting for damage purposes without a heavy investment in the frost tree. I never said that I don't cast arcane missiles with a frost built. I just reserve them solely for when I am forced into melee. As long as I am not taking hits, the sustained DPS of frostbolt is better than arcane missiles.

If some bad resists crop up (on the initial frostbolt or on the frost nova), I'll just have to switch to arcane missiles earlier than usual. The point is that my general frostbolt routine tends to drop things more quickly and effectively/safely than arcane missiles spamming.

Linked pulls for me tend to result in one or zero fewer casts of frostbolt, as I cast a polymorph after the second frostbolt. Sometimes I still have time for another frostbolt afterward; sometimes I don't.

Of course, this all comes from me playing my frost/arcane setup to cap and a lower level fire mage as well as observing other fire and arcane mages.  It could just be that I suck but that's OK because I still have fun playing with my frost mage when I can find good solo content I haven't already done or the rare good group for questing or instances.

I don't know whether or not you suck, but I do find it odd that you have difficulty casting three frostbolts before taking a melee hit. Does your build pick up Winter's Chill?

Maybe your combat positioning or timing just isn't as effective. I definitely think playing a frost build takes more skill than playing a fire build. Frost specialization is much more deserving of a "YMMV" disclaimer than fire.

And no one is disputing that fire mages outdamage frost mages. That's why some form of fire/arcane build tends to be the cookie cutter standard.

[LochnarITB]

Just so you know, the terms "ideal" and "perfect" tend to be synonyms, but that's not particularly important.
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To me, ideal is the best that can be expected. I never expect perfection.

At this point, it is time to agree to disagree. There are too many variables that factor in to each of our observations. My observation, as I originally said, is that I can kill faster using fire or arcane. I just don't enjoy it as much.