Rogue Nugget from Tiggole

[MongoJerry]

Tigole posted this nugget on the official Blizzard Forums:

We've been discussing the Rogue's role in PvE raid content for a while now.

We're going to try to tackle the issue on two fronts:

1) On the content end, we want to add encounters that make use of the rogue's many abilities.

2) On the rogue ability end, we want to see if we can't make the rogue a bit more suited for existing raid content.

I know I am being rather vague but the point is, we're discussing this issue daily.

Obviously, this is extremely vague, but perhaps it might give some rogue players a glimmer of hope for the future.

[Artega]

I'd rather hear their overpowered-ness in PvP addressed :P

I'm going to assume they're referring to Onyxia and MC, since there are plenty of humanoids to be sapped in UBRS, Strath, and Scholo.

[Lord BEEF]

Yeah, he's referring to Molten core and Onyxia, where for the most part they're just liabilities. On many fights they have to sit back and use a bow or gun for 10 minutes straight

[Quark]

Good to hear, as I'm approaching raiding point. Of course, who knows how often I'd do it considering I'm not in an "uber" guild, but we'll see.

[MongoJerry]

I'm going to assume they're referring to Onyxia and MC, since there are plenty of humanoids to be sapped in UBRS, Strath, and Scholo.

Yeah, but even so, let's consider when you're creating a party for any one of those instances whether you'd rather have a rogue or mage along. A rogue's primary purposes in a group are to sap humanoids prior to battle and provide single target damage. A mage, however, can sheep the same humanoids, whether the target is in combat or not, provide the same powerful single target damage, and provide massive aoe. I just don't see a role in a party that a rogue has over other classes other than the occational lockpicking. They don't even provide any auras or buffs to the party.

Understand that I'm not saying "rogues are useless in a party." I'm just saying that I don't see a special role that they fill versus other classes. It'd be nice if on occation people had to say, "Hmmm... we'd better grab a couple of rogues for this."

[Mavfin]

Yeah, but even so, let's consider when you're creating a party for any one of those instances whether you'd rather have a rogue or mage along.  A rogue's primary purposes in a group are to sap humanoids prior to battle and provide single target damage.  A mage, however, can sheep the same humanoids, whether the target is in combat or not, provide the same powerful single target damage, and provide massive aoe.  I just don't see a role in a party that a rogue has over other classes other than the occational lockpicking.  They don't even provide any auras or buffs to the party.

Understand that I'm not saying "rogues are useless in a party."  I'm just saying that I don't see a special role that they fill versus other classes.  It'd be nice if on occation people had to say, "Hmmm... we'd better grab a couple of rogues for this."
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Rogues and Hunters are also the two classes I view with the most suspicion until I watch them play a bit, to make sure they're not phat-lewt-mongers without a brain in their head. They exist in all the classes, but rogues and hunters seem to have it the worst. That doesn't help the demand for rogues in a group, but I don't know that Blizz can fix that.

(Yes, the stuff listed by Mongo is a very big factor. But having a lot of dumb, greedy rogues around doesn't help the smart ones find a group either)

[Concillian]

Yeah, but even so, let's consider when you're creating a party for any one of those instances whether you'd rather have a rogue or mage along.  A rogue's primary purposes in a group are to sap humanoids prior to battle and provide single target damage.  A mage, however, can sheep the same humanoids, whether the target is in combat or not, provide the same powerful single target damage, and provide massive aoe.  I just don't see a role in a party that a rogue has over other classes other than the occational lockpicking.  They don't even provide any auras or buffs to the party.

Understand that I'm not saying "rogues are useless in a party."  I'm just saying that I don't see a special role that they fill versus other classes.  It'd be nice if on occation people had to say, "Hmmm... we'd better grab a couple of rogues for this."
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I believe he is talking, rather than different classes ability to damage single targets, different classes ability to avoid AoE damage. According to accounts I've read, the local AoE damage to melee fighters makes being a rogue doing more than standing back and plinking a bow nothing more than a mana-suck for healers and/or a very short lived rogue. The fact that mages, hunters and warlocks can all stand out of AoE damage when positioned properly (save perhaps the 'random secondary targeting' present at this level) is what makes them more desirable than a rogue.

These are situations where single target damage is very important. Rogues can sustain single target damage for hours, unlike all the other single target damage classes, which depend upon mana. But from what I understand, Rogues are unable to utilize their damage at all, save for a few situations.

Given Tigole's general focus on high end raid level contet, I believe this is the subject of the matter, not your typical 5 man or even UBRS.

Personally I don't really see a problem with it. Rogues are pretty useful in the rest of the content. Doesn't hurt to throw hunters and warlocks a bone on this.

[Pesmerga]

Good to hear, as I'm approaching raiding point.  Of course, who knows how often I'd do it considering I'm not in an "uber" guild, but we'll see.
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Hey now, while our guild may not be uber, we have character... right? :D

And while I've never seen raid content to this point, I've seen first hand that a rogue's abilities are pretty darn handy with a 5-man instance, especially with our usual group combination.

[Lord BEEF]

A rogues single target damage is far higher than any other class, and they are able to sustain it endlessly.

All you really need to do is make it so rogues can do this without dying and they'll have their purpose.

[TaiDaishar]

A rogues single target damage is far higher than any other class, and they are able to sustain it endlessly.

All you really need to do is make it so rogues can do this without dying and they'll have their purpose.
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And here comes VERY fine tuning, miss it by a notch and you make Warriors obsolete.

[Ravage]

And here comes VERY fine tuning, miss it by a notch and you make Warriors obsolete.
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Not necessarly. If you make the Rogues attacks generate very little aggro, the warrior is still necessary to protect the squishies. A warriors goal in life is to get hit, and to keep others from getting hit. Not to "not die" or to do damage. The warrior not dying is the Priests goal in life. If the Rogue cannot generate aggro, he cannot keep the priest from getting hit, therefore the Rogue cannot be a tank. Just as a Paladin is a poor tank in higher instances due to lack of aggro management ability.

[Quark]

And here comes VERY fine tuning, miss it by a notch and you make Warriors obsolete.
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Rogues who play it smartly (and I admit, sometimes I don't), don't die because they aren't getting attacked. Not because they can take damage. Trust me, Rogues cannot take damage. You might be able to fight your way through aggro up to 40, but when the Mail/Plate upgrades kick in for other classes and mob's damage is adjusted accordingly, the Rogue never again dreams of being a tank (except in emergencies with evasion).

The problem is simply that a Rogue can do everything he knows to not get aggro and still die in MC anyway because the rampant AoE attacks. AoE hurts a Rogue, real bad. Rogues are the only class in the game that is forced to go melee to have any abilities and yet don't have Plate.

What do raids choose in place of Rogues, then? Hunters, who have the 2nd best sustained DPS and have it at range. Mages, who have good burst DPS, some utility spells, and AoE. Warriors wouldn't be made obsolete by any changes. Mages and Hunters are the ones at risk if any changes overpower Rogues.

Of course, what I'd really like to see? Detect Traps having a use besides one uncompleted quest line. Disarm Traps having any use at all besides PvP versus Hunters. Parties needing a Rogue for these skills, and Lockpicking. Of course, the Rogue still has to survive :P

[Treesh]

Disarm Traps having any use at all besides PvP versus Hunters. 
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Ooh! There was one time, in Ashenvale, when I got to disarm a trap in PvE! Those little trapped boxes that some of the slimes drop. If it's not your turn to loot, they knock you on your butt and really do nothing, but I got to disarm the trap! It was a proud moment. :wacko:

[MongoJerry]

Of course, what I'd really like to see?  Detect Traps having a use besides one uncompleted quest line.  Disarm Traps having any use at all besides PvP versus Hunters.  Parties needing a Rogue for these skills, and Lockpicking.  Of course, the Rogue still has to survive :P

Perhaps that'd be nice, but I think those skills were specifically designed for use in PvP. Hunters and rogues are each other's yin-yang. Hunters fight at distance and have special abilities to detect rogues. Rogues fight melee and have the ability to detect and destroy hunter traps. (And yeah, in the beta, I caught many would-be rogue gankers with a freeze trap at my feet, because they didn't think to put trap detection on).

[acidjax]

Yeah, but even so, let's consider when you're creating a party for any one of those instances whether you'd rather have a rogue or mage along.  A rogue's primary purposes in a group are to sap humanoids prior to battle and provide single target damage.  A mage, however, can sheep the same humanoids, whether the target is in combat or not, provide the same powerful single target damage, and provide massive aoe.  I just don't see a role in a party that a rogue has over other classes other than the occational lockpicking.  They don't even provide any auras or buffs to the party.
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My main is a 60 rogue so I can offer a little insight on some rogue group utility. My rogue has 31 points in combat and has mace mastery. I have just over 3.7k HP unbuffed.

In a non-raid instance party I typically stun as much as possible. This is one thing no other class can come close to in frequency. Each stun gives the healer additional time. As a mace rogue I have cheap shot, kidney shot, and passive mace mastery stuns. Due to the fight lengths of most fights, diminishing returns on mace mastery stun aren't that big of an issue. Depending on the instance I might use the mace "The Shatterer" in main hand to disarm mobs. This makes them do less damage and tanks dodge/parry/etc more often. The proc chance seems to also occur when a rogue uses sinister strike. Stuns allow the group to do more damage as a whole. It's the same group philosophy where a priest doesn't even cast shadow word: pain because the mana used for a flash heal would result in the whole group doing more damage then the DoT.

Crippling poison is another useful thing that rogues can bring to an instance party. I've been in a number of groups that were damage heavy without a warrior or druid to tank. This often involves kiting which crippling poison can allow. Mobs chase after mages who play tag with them. This also means that while a mob is trying to reach a player it can't, it isn't doing damage.

A rogue can also be low-maintainence as far as heals are concerned. Rogues can't take melee hits but with a decent amount of HP they have time to react. Rogues can use evasion, feint, and vanish to make them very tough to kill.


Now the problem with raid instances is that the mobs are immune to so many things. I've been to numerous MC raids and I've noticed that the majority of mobs are immune to: poisons, stuns, and bleeds. Poisons and stuns are primary rogue group utility skills. While I feel that these immunities are good for the sake of balance, it makes rogues quite useless in there. At the very least I think expose armor should stack with sunder (at least in raid instances).

[Guest]

My suggestion is simple.

Rogues are all about cunning right? Allow rogues to pick another player in the group who they will divert toward all the agro they generate.

Every group would want a rogue then to both do huge damage and to help keep agro focused on the tank.

It really is a lame feeling currently when you play a rogue and you essentyially dont try hard in fights because it makes the group work smoother.

EDIT: This doesnt solve the AOE problem, but it would be a huge improvement.

[savaughn]

It really is a lame feeling currently when you play a rogue and you essentyially dont try hard in fights because it makes the group work smoother.

EDIT: This doesnt solve the AOE problem, but it would be a huge improvement.
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Yea, but this is true for every DPS class. My hunter can't go all out, or he'll pull aggro and my mage is even worse because the burst DPS can create massive aggro in a short period of time. This doesn't balance the rogue in anyway, it's just a straight power boost. Seems like rogues and hunters are the two most popular classes right now because of the relative strenghts of the classes - neither one needs a power boost.

The thin line here is to make the rogue useful in end game content (I would argue that stealthing in to MC to do dark iron runs unchallenged is already enough end game benefit) without making them "teh uber". I don't think a straight up ability increase really answers that.

[Guest]

The mage isnt a fair comparision. Ya they do DPS. But they also do sheep which is way way better than sap. They have range which gives them more versitility. Plus they can do AOE damage which specific cases is exceptionally useful.

The mage really is more useful in almost ever raid.

The hunter is a better comparision. But most players see the hunter as more useful the raid context however. The pet can grab an add if needed plus they have range.

A rogue may be just as good as a hunter, but i think the hunter is prefered for the utility - neither is real popular.

[Tal]

The mage isnt a fair comparision.  Ya they do DPS. But they also do sheep which is way way better than sap. They have range which gives them more versitility.  Plus they can do AOE damage which specific cases is exceptionally useful.

The mage really is more useful in almost ever raid.

The hunter is a better comparision.  But most players see the hunter as more useful the raid context however.  The pet can grab an add if needed plus they have range.

A rogue may be just as good as a hunter, but i think the hunter is prefered for the utility - neither is real popular.
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Having been in the position of not having a mage or warlock available for some instances I was really surprised at how useful a rogue was in conjunction with a couple of tanks (in this case me with consecration and Mentat with Battle Shout). End result, Rogue unscratched and mobs dead. :)

I won't turn a rogue away from groups or raids. :)

[Raelynn]

Hey now, while our guild may not be uber, we have character... right?  :D

And while I've never seen raid content to this point, I've seen first hand that a rogue's abilities are pretty darn handy with a 5-man instance, especially with our usual group combination.
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Apparently our lovely priest may have made some friends with another guild. He participated on raids of Scholo and Strath I think and has been invited back for more. He's mentioned that we'd be happy to participate as well.

The guild's name is Death Jesters I think. Anyone heard of them?