Michael Jackson is dead.

[Jester]

Yeah, he *was* a phenom. But, he died an unhappy *has been* who was trying to stage a come back tour.

He had *fifty* sold out shows at the O2 at the time of his death. That's over one million tickets sold, in one city alone. Think about those numbers. He might well be the only person who could have done that. Paul McCartney couldn't do that. Bob Dylan couldn't do that. Only Michael Jackson could do that. Almost certainly he was unhappy, but he could still push tickets like nobody else. That's not a has-been. That's a superstar.

So, what I'm talking about is that I think about life long musicians like B.B. King, Willie Nelson, or Bob Dylan, and then what MJ might have done had he not had those demons haunting him. And, he is by far not the only one... I think the industry itself cashes in on disposable fame.

Sure. And if Mozart had died at 72 rather than 36, who knows what he might have done. The point is to judge people by what they did, not by setting them against the most prolific, long-lived musicians ever, and then criticising them for their failure to live up to that standard. How many BB Kings are there? Bob Dylans? Even Willie Nelsons? There's a reason these people are living legends.

So, I agree, he *was* a phenomenal performer, but was he a phenomenal musician? For me, no. I respect many other artists more.

I think Pete had some fancy Latin earlier that probably covers this.

-Jester

[--Pete]

Hi,

I think Pete had some fancy Latin earlier that probably covers this.

It was trumped by LennyLen -- silly me, I'd forgotten this was the Lounge. :lol:

--Pete

[kandrathe]

And if Mozart had died at 72 rather than 36, who knows what he might have done. The point is to judge people by what they did, not by setting them against the most prolific, long-lived musicians ever, and then criticizing them for their failure to live up to that standard. How many BB Kings are there? Bob Dylans? Even Willie Nelsons? There's a reason these people are living legends.

Right. But, MJ didn't die 25 years ago either.

I tried to get tickets for AC/DC recently, and beyond being $250 each, they were entirely sold out in every city near enough for me to attend. A good show is a good show, I don't discount that. But, superstar???

[Jester]

Right. But, MJ didn't die 25 years ago either.

Not sure what that means.

I tried to get tickets for AC/DC recently, and beyond being $250 each, they were entirely sold out in every city near enough for me to attend. A good show is a good show, I don't discount that. But, superstar???

Superstar. This is a million tickets sold, in one venue, in one city, a year in advance. 50 separate shows. Cheapest tickets were 75 pounds (150 bucks, or so), but e-bay secondary market had them at twice that. This is separate from a simultaneous hit musical of his music.

MJ practically defines "superstar" in the post-Beatles age. He has AC/DC beat, hands down, by any countable metric. Thriller alone is about 50% of AC/DC's total album sales, combined. And there is no question in my mind that AC/DC is among the tiny handful of all-time top acts; Back in Black is no. 2 to Thriller's no. 1, and yet has less than half the sales. MJ has almost quadruple their career sales. (Interestingly, AC/DC fails badly by your earlier metric of output. 35 years, and merely 14 studio albums? Tsk.)

This is not just flash-in-pan popular. This is unmatched, a once-in-a-generation star.

-Jester

[Ashock]

Meh, so he really was a superstar. However, he was an act or a singer, nothing more. He was not a musician. He did not write his own music, he just sang the songs. This was no Freddy Mercury, no Paul McCartney, no Prince or Pete Townsand. A semi-male, more successful version of Madonna.

Also, a deeply disturbed individual, at least. A moment of silence in Congress? Gimme a break.

[--Pete]

Hi,

A moment of silence in Congress? Gimme a break.

That is a break. Anything that shuts those jerks up, even for a moment, is a plus.:)

--Pete

[kandrathe]

That is a break. Anything that shuts those jerks up, even for a moment, is a plus.:)

It would be nice if after the silence they passed a law that prevented pedophiles from buying the silence of their victims.

[Jester]

He did not write his own music, he just sang the songs.

That's not really true. He wrote most of his biggest hits, including Beat It, Billie Jean, Don't Stop 'till You Get Enough, Bad, Smooth Criminal, and so on.

I'm not a fan, but there's no reason to misjudge an artist just because it isn't to your taste. He was a phenomenal musician by almost any standard.

-Jester

[[wcip]Angel]

It would be nice if after the silence they passed a law that prevented pedophiles from buying the silence of their victims.

"Innocent till proven guilty". I've seen enough American cop-dramas to know this phrase by heart.;)

edit: (or is it "until"?. lol @ irony):D

[Nystul]

Angel' date='Jul 7 2009, 06:02 PM' post='169611']
"Innocent till proven guilty". I've seen enough American cop-dramas to know this phrase by heart.;)

When it comes to sexual abuse of children in this country it is more like "Guilty until proven innocent, and then we'll leave you on a list and everywhere you move you will be instantly feared and hated by your neighbors and mocked by strangers on the internet."

[Ashock]

That's not really true. He wrote most of his biggest hits, including Beat It, Billie Jean, Don't Stop 'till You Get Enough, Bad, Smooth Criminal, and so on.

I'm not a fan, but there's no reason to misjudge an artist just because it isn't to your taste. He was a phenomenal musician by almost any standard.

-Jester

What instruments did he play? A musician needs to play instruments, right? As far as the writing, I have a feeling that Quincy Jones needs to get more credit than he got for MJ's material, but whatever.

[Ashock]

Hi,
That is a break. Anything that shuts those jerks up, even for a moment, is a plus.:)

--Pete

Wow, your glass has been half-full more often than not lately ;)

[--Pete]

Hi,

When it comes to sexual abuse of children in this country it is more like "Guilty until proven innocent, and then we'll leave you on a list and everywhere you move you will be instantly feared and hated by your neighbors and mocked by strangers on the internet."

Too true. Guilt by accusation. And after jobs are lost, families ruined, reputations destroyed, the 'innocent' verdict fixes nothing. There is no super-glue for Humpty Dumpty.

Not saying that that is the case for MJ. Don't know, probably never will.

As to the thread topic, MJ died at a relatively young age; that is always a shame. He had an exceptional and unusual life; perhaps that explains some of his weirdness. To deny that he was a superstar is ludicrous by any definition of stardom. To claim he had no influence on pop music is to display a great ignorance of pop music. To say he was no a talented performer is to ignore the reality of his performances. By any *objective* measure, he was all these things.

Perhaps to someone who hates MJ, or hates pop music, or hates weirdness, or just plain hates blacks, the claims of his worthlessness have appeal. To the rest of the rational world, credit must be given where credit is due.

--Pete

[Jester]

What instruments did he play? A musician needs to play instruments, right? As far as the writing, I have a feeling that Quincy Jones needs to get more credit than he got for MJ's material, but whatever.

Singers aren't musicians now?

-Jester

[--Pete]

Hi,

Singers aren't musicians now?

Technically, no. Musicians play instruments, singers sing, dancers dance. They are all subsets of performers, but the subsets aren't necessarily disjoint. Just being OC precise. :w00t:

--Pete

[kandrathe]

Angel' date='Jul 7 2009, 05:02 PM' post='169611']"Innocent till proven guilty". I've seen enough American cop-dramas to know this phrase by heart.;)

Um... Do you really believe that all the innocent go free, and all the guilty get served their justice? I've read all the evidence, and there is doubt in my mind on a number of individuals who were paid off to keep MJ out of trouble. Let's ask La Toya...

[kandrathe]

Superstar.

Ok, superstar. And, a pop icon, and he used to be entertaining back in the day. I'm not sure of lately, because he seemed like kind of a freak show at the end.

I was one of the few American's who didn't buy Thriller, or actually any MJ album. :) I think I was listening to Bach: The Goldberg Variations. Actually, seriously, in 1982 I would have been more into Fleetwood Mac, Vangelis, Who, and The Clash. Anything not remotely like disco, or country western. I was also in college, discovering bands I had been clueless about like Jefferson Airplane, Talking Heads, B52's, Violent Femmes, and there was a very talented reggae band in Minneapolis named Ipso Facto, which had me into Jimmy Cliff and Bob Marley as well.

[Jester]

Ok, superstar. And, a pop icon, and he used to be entertaining back in the day. I'm not sure of lately, because he seemed like kind of a freak show at the end.

I was one of the few American's who didn't buy Thriller, or actually any MJ album. :) I think I was listening to Bach: The Goldberg Variations. Actually, seriously, in 1982 I would have been more into Fleetwood Mac, Vangelis, Who, and The Clash. Anything not remotely like disco, or country western. I was also in college, discovering bands I had been clueless about like Jefferson Airplane, Talking Heads, B52's, Violent Femmes, and there was a very talented reggae band in Minneapolis named Ipso Facto, which had me into Jimmy Cliff and Bob Marley as well.

Well, in 1982, I would have been months old. But on the whole I like your pics a heck of a lot more than MJ, especially The Who and Talking Heads. Pop always seemed... well, pop-y. Not so much my cup of tea.

-Jester

[Occhidiangela]

What instruments did he play? A musician needs to play instruments, right? As far as the writing, I have a feeling that Quincy Jones needs to get more credit than he got for MJ's material, but whatever.

The voice is an instrument. IF you doubt me, check out a little gal named Chenoweth. Kristin. One each.

@ Pete: I suppose we can go around in vivid pedantry on that one, but I won't. When composing a song, if the voice isn't in balance and harmony with the other instruments, the song doesn't work as a composition. Treating the voice as another instrument, by it with melody or harmony, may not be the same as "the voice is an instrument."

Then again, a capella is voice alone, so you could probably get a lot of support for the instrument / voice distinction.

[Occhidiangela]

Well, in 1982, I would have been months old. -Jester

Lucky you, as you missed the disco era.