Combat build critique

[GentlemanLoser]

Hi all!

After finally getting a new computer able to play current games, I managed to get myself a copy of WoW (before the new batch was released, they had been sold out in England...) and have been spending the last couple of weeks getting a hang of the game, trying out different characters and generally finding out what I want to play.

At the moment I’ve settled on a Rogue after a little stint as both a priest and druid.

I want to play my Rogue as more of a sword master, than a stealth assassin, (and I prefer the style of a rogue to a warrior) so am thinking of a combat heavy sword/sword build. I’m playing on a PvP server, but hope to use this character in all aspects of the game, from instances to the up coming battlegrounds. I know this build isn’t an ideal PvP one, but I hope to be able to at least hold my own!

15/36/0

Assassination

Improved Eviscerate 3/3
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.

Malice 5/5
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.

Ruthlessness 3/3
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.

Relentless Strikes 1/1
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.

Lethality 3/5
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Haemorrhage ability by 30%.

Combat

Improved Sinister Strike 2/2
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 5.

Improved Gouge 3/3
Increases the effect duration of your Gouge ability by 1.5 seconds.

Deflection 5/5
Increases your Parry chance by 5%.

Precision 5/5
Increases your chance to hit with melee weapons by 5%

Riposte 1/1
A strike that becomes active after parrying an opponent's attack. This attack deals 150% weapon damage and disarms the target for 6 seconds.

Improved Sprint 3/3
Reduces the cooldown of your Sprint ability by 90 seconds.

Improved Kick 2/2
Gives your kick ability a 100% chance to silence the target for 2 seconds.

Dual Wield Specialization 5/5
Increases the damage done by your offhand weapon by 50%.

Blade Flurry 1/1
Increases your attack speed by 20%. In addition, attacks strike an additional nearby opponent. Lasts 15 seconds. Requires a melee weapon to use.

Sword Specialization 5/5
Gives you a 5% chance to get an extra attack after dealing damage with your Sword.

Aggression 3/3
Increases the damage of your Sinister Strike and Eviscerate abilities by 6%.

Adrenaline Rush 1/1
Increases your Energy regeneration rate by 100% for 15 seconds.


The idea would be to have a large DPS using two weapons, starting with a SS/1pt SnD, then spamming SS/Evis, stacking Blade Flurry when needed or when pulling multiple Mobs. Getting the last two points of Lethality would be nice, but I’m unsure if I want to drop anything to get it. Maybe losing two points from Dual Wield. Imp Gouge could be swapped for 3 points of Lightning Reflexes, but not using CS from Stealth, Gouge will be my main Mez. I want Precision to up my hit rate (which will be lowered by dual wielding), I could drop Riposte, but it’s only 1 talent for a situational 10 energy instant attack.

Not being able to use poisons with swords is a pain, but I’m not interested in using daggers (which also rules out Backstab/Ambush). I’m hoping the 5% from Sword Spec will proc quite often, can you crit on these extra attacks? If so, a 5% change for an additional attack with your normal crit chance is far better than an extra 5% crit.

I’m alos unsure of what professions to take. Herbalsim would be usefull for things like Thistle Tea (Although I’ve not a fan of Alchemy), Leatherworking for Devilsaur or Engineering for PvP applications…

Any help or suggestions would be appreciated!

Thanks!

[Gurnsey]

...

I’m alos unsure of what professions to take.  Herbalsim would be usefull for things like Thistle Tea (Although I’ve not a fan of Alchemy), Leatherworking for Devilsaur or Engineering for PvP applications…

Any help or suggestions would be appreciated!

Thanks!
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A note on the profession question - You don't need to be a fan of Alchemy to make Thistle Tea as it is a Cooking recipe, and nothing says that you have to take Alchemy along with Herbalism. However, it might be better NOT to take Herbalism if you don't want to do Alchemy (Agility potions, *drool*) - Swifthistle is found on Briarthorn bushes, which is quite easy to pick. You could either start an 'Herbalism Alt' to go around and pick Briarthorn looking for Swifthistle, or simply buy it from the Auction House. I'd reccomend against getting Herbalism without Alchemy as (almost all) the herbs are not used in anything else, and, with a few exceptions (Stranglekelp, for some reason) does not sell well at the Auction House.

I think your best options are:

Skinning-Leatherworking: Make your own armor; there are some pieces that are excellent for Rogues in the low-mid-levels, as well as some quite good later pieces.

Mining-Engineering: Make your own bombs, devices, pets, etc. I have never tried it past about 100 skill so I can't comment on how 'good' it is, nor how expensive it is to come by the components that you can't get with mining.

Mining-Skinning: on the assumption that it's better to gather and sell the materials in the Auction House, and then use the profits to buy yourself quite possibly better equipment. Mining includes the refining of the metals that you gather; Skinning without leatherworking is only minorly annoying in that you can't combine thinner leathers into thicker ones or cure hides. Buy the biggest packs you can afford for this one :P

In any case take:

Cooking: only needs to be up to 60 (correct me if I'm wrong) to make Thistle Tea; it's up to you if you want to continue on for the better and better foods that buff stats when you eat.

First Aid: in my opinion, a-freakin-mazingly useful for Rogues. Faster downtime (First Aid heals much faster than food, unless you are nearly dead) is one advantage. However, rogues are very able to use it in (single) combat with Gouge - just gouge and hit yourself with a bandage. You won't get the full effect of the heal, but will still get most. With Improved Gouge, you might be able to get the whole Bandage worth of healing. Of course, this fails as soon as you are against more than one target.

[Gurnsey]

...

Not being able to use poisons with swords is a pain, but I’m not interested in using daggers (which also rules out Backstab/Ambush).  I’m hoping the 5% from Sword Spec will proc quite often, can you crit on these extra attacks?  If so, a 5% change for an additional attack with your normal crit chance is far better than an extra 5% crit.

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Let's look into this question from the perspective of a Sword/Sword SS build.
Is 5% crit better, or 5% chance of an extra attack?

Example:

50 dps base.
15% chance to crit (not hard to do).

Base

The crit chance (over time) effectively adds a 15% chance to replace a normal hit with a 200% damage hit = .15*50 = +7.5 dps.

Total Base: 57.5 dps

With Sword Spec

This adds a 5% chance to do an instant-extra swing (does NOT replace a normal swing) with the normal chance to crit (I don't have direct experience with this, but I crit with my Shaman's Windfury all the time and it is very similar) = .05*57.5= +2.875 dps

Total with Sword Spec: 60.375dps

With +5% Crit Chance

This is just a modification of the calculation of the base DPS. (.15 + .05)*50 = +10 dps

Total with +5% Crit Chance: 60 dps

It looks like Sword Spec is the winner, but not by much.

Going Beyond

Though it's not a huge difference in numbers above, there are some special factors to look at with your build. An 'SS' (Sinister Strike) build favors Damage Per Swing (slower, harder hits) over Damage Per Second, and Sinister Strike favors heavily into the build's damage output. I'm almost completley sure that Sword-Spec will not proc on a Sinister Strike; SS can crit though.

This partially relates to 'Streakiness'. Since the build favors slower weapons, you are making fewer swings in a certain amount of time. A 5% chance (1 in 20), swinging 20 times in 60 seconds, should happen once. However, it is quite likely not to happen at all, or happen a twice. In our Sword Spec example, this has a likely possibility of not adding any dps; or, it might add significant extra dps! Streaky, especially since it doesn't add anything to Sinister Strike. In the +crit chance example, the 'chances' happen on both the normal swings and on the Sinister Strike swings. This gives you more swings or chances per time period, reducing the 'Streakiness'.

Also, since +crit chance applies to Sinister Strike, but Sword Spec does not, the TOTAL dps calculation becomes:

Sword Spec: 1.05*1.15*(base dps) + (SS dps) + .15*(SS critical damage bonus)*(SS dps)

Dagger Spec: 1.2*(base dps) + (SS dps) + .20*(SS critical damage bonus)*(SS dps)

The last term (the added dps from Sinister Strike crits) is lesser in the Sword Spec equation. Thus, the talents that increase the critical strike damage bonus of Sinister Strike add more value to the +crit chance scenario than to the Sword Spec scenario.

Since we are assuming from the first results that Sword Spec is more valuable than +5% crit chance, let's subtract the two equations. We then come up with:

{Sword Spec} .0075*(Base dps) = .05*(SS Crit Bonus)*(SS dps) {Dagger Spec}

Since you plan on having the talent that increases the SS crit bonus maxed out, we can reduce this to

{Sword Spec} .0075*(Base dps) = .05*1.4*(SS dps) {Dagger Spec}
{Sword Spec} .0075*(Base dps) = .07*(SS dps) {Dagger Spec}
{Sword Spec} .11*(Base dps) = SS dps {Dagger Spec}

So, for the +crit chance to give you more dps for an SS build, Sinister Strike damage-per-second needs to be at least ~1/10th of your base dps. Something tells me this is not particularly hard to do. Every bit of dps over 1/10th of your base further adds to the crit-chance advantage.

Whew. That was a lot of algebra! See reply to myself below for some complications.

[edit] Crit damage is 200%, not 150%. Thanks for catching me! This made crit-chance work out to have a better advantage than before!

[playingtokrush]

Two things, Gurnsey. Even with improved gouge, the duration is only long enough to get about half a bandage use -- unless you're fighting a caster or something that decides to use a cast-time ability after the gouge wears out.

Also, your calculations are in error because critical strikes do 200% damage, not 150%.

[Gurnsey]

{Sword Spec} .11*(Base dps) = SS dps {+Crit Chance}

So, for the +crit chance to give you more dps for an SS build, Sinister Strike damage-per-second needs to be at least 1/10th of your base damage.
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But wait, this still isn't quite right! This is only true if the weapon has the same damage range and dps in both cases. Since this is really an argument of Sword Spec vs. Dagger spec, the situation is a LOT more complicated.

Dagger and Sword dps is somewhat comparable, with sword slightly higher but not too much (correct me if I'm wrong). This reduces dps on the Dagger Spec side. Daggers have a lower damage range, which reduces SS damage (SS favors slower, and thus harder hitting weapons), further reducing the dps on the Dagger Spec equation. However, you can use poisons on daggers (can you really not use poisons on swords? I've never tried). This is a flat damage add, which (in opposition to SS) favors a faster attack speed.

So, the complication is, does added poison damage balance out the reduced SS damage that daggers inflict? This difference, and the base "1/10 Base dmg from SS", would determine which is more effective.

I'm not sure I even want to try that in an equation :P

[edit] Changes due to me being an idiot and performing initial calcs with 150% crit damage and not 200%

[Gurnsey]

...
Also, your calculations are in error because critical strikes do 200% damage, not 150%.
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Really? Where did I get this number from? It seems that my spells do 150% damage on crits, but thinking about it, I guess my melee attacks do 2x.

Gimme a source or someone else back this up (the 150% was probably a brain-fart on my part) and I'll redo the calc's.

Thanks!

[vor_lord]

Spell crit is 150%, melee crit is 200%. As a paladin I see both quite a bit (divine favor!) so I can personally confirm.

Don't know if that's a _source_ for you but I've never seen this disputed.

[Gurnsey]

Don't know if that's a _source_ for you but I've never seen this disputed.
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Source enough for me (I think it was just me being stupid before)! Calculations fixed. Makes crit-chance look even better!

[Malakar]

I haven't run into a melee weapon yet that can't have poisons applied to it.

[Gurnsey]

I haven't run into a melee weapon yet that can't have poisons applied to it.
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Since this is the case, the final determination becomes:

Does the added damage that daggers add from poisons (due to their faster attack speed) balance the lower SS damage damage (from lower damage range)? If so, does the increase in SS crit damage from Dagger Spec beat out both the (possibly) lower dps from daggers, as well as the extra attacks from sword spec?

Like I said, complicated.

[Treesh]

Combat
Improved Gouge 3/3
Increases the effect duration of your Gouge ability by 1.5 seconds.

Improved Sprint 3/3
Reduces the cooldown of your Sprint ability by 90 seconds.
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Out of all the points spent, these 6 are the least needed, especially the points in improved sprint. Really, the only times when I was really wanting sprint to not be in cooldown is when I was on a really long run and using it as a pseudo-travel form. You won't be using it as an escape route so frequently and so closely together that the cooldown will kill you. I would easily spend these points in lightning reflexes instead. Gouge is slightly more helpful, but you will get blind and kidney shot (and kick for the casters) later on to help with crowd control and damage mitigation. You won't be able to tank like the hard shelled characters. Your main way of keeping yourself out of harm's way is going to be things like dodging and parrying and even riposte (makes them do so much less damage to you when you take away their weapons). The 5% dodge bonus from a maxed lightning reflexes may not sound like much, but it really does make a difference during a fight.

[GentlemanLoser]

Thanks for all the input! :)

For Imp Gouge/Sprint over LR, I thought I'd be relying on Gouge more as I won't have access to Cheap Shot, but is an extra 1.5 seconds of me not being able to do anything offensive anyway going to benfit more than an extra 3% dodge?

I thought I'd be using Sprint to close with casters/hunters (no stealth is going to hurt...), chase down fleeing foes or escape myself. But the 90 second reduction from 5 minutes might not be worth the 3 points.

LR was originally my first choice, but It doesn't help with casters or moves like overpower (so I've heard!).


Poisons can be used with any melee weapon? Even maces? All the info I've seen about poison hints to use with daggers only. But if that's not the case, I might just try that quest around level 20! :)


I'm still undecided about a profession. Leatherworking is appealing for devilsaur items, but so is blacksmith/armoursmith if only for the blacksmith only resist fear trinket.

:) I'm glad that S/S is close to D/D in terms of DPS, for feel alone I really want to use two swords as this character.

(sorry to reply to different threads in 1 reply, I know most view the forums in the threaded view, it was just easier for me to compose this as one post!)

[Treesh]

I thought I'd be relying on Gouge more as I won't have access to Cheap Shot,

<snip>

I thought I'd be using Sprint to close with casters/hunters (no stealth is going to hurt...), chase down fleeing foes or escape myself.&nbsp;
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You get both cheap shot and stealth even if you don't put talent points into the improved versions. If the talent says "Improved", that means you'll be able to train that skill regardless of if you spent talent points in it or not.

LR was originally my first choice, but It doesn't help with casters or moves like overpower (so I've heard!).[right][snapback]75459[/snapback][/right]

It doesn't help with spell casters and overpower (warrior skill), but you will have many other ways to shut down spell casters when you deal with them (you'll run into more melee and ranged attacks than spells most of the time) and overpower only comes into effect when you are PvPing against a person playing a warrior.

Poisons can be used with any melee weapon? Even maces? All the info I've seen about poison hints to use with daggers only. But if that's not the case, I might just try that quest around level 20![right][snapback]75459[/snapback][/right]

You see so much about poison and daggers because the quicker you can get the poison to get onto your enemy, the better off you are. If you have a slow weapon and the poison doesn't go off on the first swing, you have to wait for yet another swing to try to poison again. If you have a quick weapon, the times between swings is shorter so you're more likely to actually get your poison to affect your enemy.

[Guest]

Get "Slice and Dice". Get the points for it by dropping "Imp Sprint".


"Slice and Dice" Is most effective with a combat build. Imp sprint is nearly useless.