If You Were a Casual Gamer...

[Concillian]

Are you just attacking me to attack me? Preaching to the goddamn choir, Drasca.

The guy had sub-par gear for a 60. This is FACT. In the normal course of business, I, lordly aggro generating paladin that I am, consistently pulled hate. That means I was judging light, hitting command, and letting autoattack do it's business. AUTOATTACK.

Hunters, well yeah, hunters need to control their aggro.
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If a paladin not useing the hate seal was pulling aggro he was, quite simply, not doing his job.

Although there is a school of thought that the MA target should be largely ignored by a warrior in order to secure the other targets because the first MA target will typically go down VERY fast.

This is generally waht I push with my warrior, as pickup groups are often not patient enough to wait for me to secure aggro on all mobs.

I can't speak for the lvl 60 instances, but for the lower instances, gear is important, but not critical. These are the same instances where a casual gamer will spend their time. How much post 60 time will a casual gamer have. I was able to hold aggro very well in Blackfathom and SFK using a level 20 green dagger and a quest reward shield. Gear helps your healer, but aggro generation is all about rage and talent build, which doesn't get a huge boost from damage in critical instance scenarios. Agility gives a small improvement to getting revenge to light up, but not a huge one.

I'm curious as to HOW gear really helps a warrior in an instance. Solo it can change things quite a bit, but soloing is pretty easy anyway, especially with a casual gamer getting a nice rested bonus.

As a person who really only has two opportunities a week for instances, I'm often incredibly frustrated when I do one with my priest, rogue, and warlock. I've never had a problem with my warrior because I was able to lock aggro, and there is really not much people can do to ruin an instance when you lock aggro.

I did preface my choice of warrior with the caveat that they are willing to spend some out-of-game time learning about holding aggro.

[Bob the Beholder]

If a paladin not useing the hate seal was pulling aggro he was, quite simply, not doing his job. 

Although there is a school of thought that the MA target should be largely ignored by a warrior in order to secure the other targets because the first MA target will typically go down VERY fast. 

This is generally waht I push with my warrior, as pickup groups are often not patient enough to wait for me to secure aggro on all mobs.

I can't speak for the lvl 60 instances, but for the lower instances, gear is important, but not critical.  These are the same instances where a casual gamer will spend their time.  How much post 60 time will a casual gamer have.  I was able to hold aggro very well in Blackfathom and SFK using a level 20 green dagger and a quest reward shield.  Gear helps your healer, but aggro generation is all about rage and talent build, which doesn't get a huge boost from damage in critical instance scenarios.  Agility gives a small improvement to getting revenge to light up, but not a huge one.

I'm curious as to HOW gear really helps a warrior in an instance.  Solo it can change things quite a bit, but soloing is pretty easy anyway, especially with a casual gamer getting a nice rested bonus.

As a person who really only has two opportunities a week for instances, I'm often incredibly frustrated when I do one with my priest, rogue, and warlock.  I've never had a problem with my warrior because I was able to lock aggro, and there is really not much people can do to ruin an instance when you lock aggro.

I did preface my choice of warrior with the caveat that they are willing to spend some  out-of-game time learning about holding aggro.
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I agree with this fairly well. The only gear that matters when you're tanking properly is the gear that makes take longer to die. All the aggro I generate as a tank is from low-to-no damage skills like Sunder Armor, Revenge, Demoralizing Shout, and auto-attack, and that last bit is both the highest damage output and the part that only matters for rage generation.

[Jarulf]

I have no finally got the game and played a for a few days. My first character became a Night Elf Druid. So far, I must say I am very pleased and likes it a lot. I have got it up to level 20 and although solo fighting is now somewhat slower than at lower levels. I normally have no problem taking on any monster my level or a few above. I even managed to handle "Old Sotie" (or whatever that bear is called in Loch Modan) at level 18. That is a elite boss at level 20. I didn't even make any special preparations and had margins.

Depending some on monster types, I have usually no problem handling 2 monsters my own level, that is without having to go to healing potions/bandages/healing. If there is spell casters in there, I might at times pop out some healing spell on myself. Im tougher fights, I typically start of in normal form casting some spells (and for special cases like that unique bear, I toss of some healing spells that heal over time first) and then switch into bear form. If things get rough, I can always switch back quickly for a heal spell or put back Moonfire (is that the name? Doing damage over time) and then back to bear form. Baiscally, I feel I have everything at my disposal, spells, healing, melee and since I decided to go alchemy, I have nice buff potions.

Admitedly, I have previous experience, but I would say that as a first character, it is excellent and one get to taste all flavours of the game play. As a bonus, one get a nice sea form to explore under water as well!! All in all, I love my Druid so far!

I can imagine the Shaman is somewhat the equivalent to the Druid on the Horde side, so it might be a good one too although my very limited experience with the Shaman in the beta had me somewhat frustrated with having to toss out those totems. I think once one get the grasp of them, it might be easy though.

I have mostly played solo, although when in a group, be it with a warrior, another druid or something else, I feel it turns extremely easy and I get a feeling I can switch and pick my role as seems fit. I still have a lot to learn about aggro control though. At the moment it is not that hard though as it doesn't matter if the mobs turn to me when I heal as I can usually handle it myself, but I can see the problems later so I am trying to learn, looking forward to run some instance soon, perhaps with some people from here to "teach" me :) Typically, I think I am a bit unpatient and need to wait a while.

On the other hand, it is amusing when you want to help a stranger who is in trouble by healing him, just to have all three mobs turn and run over to me :) Of course, it is satisfying to help out that mage at 1% health fighitng 2 monsters you run past, so that he comes out surviving and killing both monsters. Again, I love that Druid :)

As for second and Horde char, I think I will not get the Shaman, since I feel that one "good at all" character is enough, so I want a more specialized one. I have thought about the Priest (Undead) and probably will do so although it might be similar to the Druid. Have not decided completely yet though.

I thank everyone in this thread for input though, would never even have considered the Druid otherwsie...


So what level is appropriate for hitting the Deadmines? What about the instance in Darkshore? Have not quested at all in the land of the humans though, so need to pick up quests there some time....

[nobbie]

I can imagine the Shaman is somewhat the equivalent to the Druid on the Horde side, so it might be a good one too although my very limited experience with the Shaman in the beta had me somewhat frustrated with having to toss out those totems. I think once one get the grasp of them, it might be easy though.
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I personally look at totems as extra "tools" if you can't win your (solo) fights with reasonable downtimes. For example, if the enemies are stronger than you (1 to 2 levels), use a Fire Nova totem for extra damage and Healing Stream totem for faster life regeneration in addition to your magical and melee attacks; if the enemy is even stronger (3+ levels or elite), add a Stoneskin totem to reduce damage taken, too. Got an add during the fight? No problem: Add a Stoneclaw totem. This is where the Shaman really shines: Having a tool (totem) for every imaginable situation immediately at hand and having very low downtimes because he can use i.e. Healing Stream totems instead of food to replenish lost hitpoints. On the other hand, because the Shaman's greatest power comes from his totems and magical spells, his Mana pool is limited, so that he doesn't get too powerful. So, careful totem management is cruicial and the reason why I use them only when the situation demands them. The use of totems changes in a group. Here, you'll have to use the totems for the best possible party support. The use of totems just as extra tools (for soloing), and not as fighting base, is even easier if you choose Herbalism/Achemy with their fantastic extra buffs through potions.

Regarding "good-at-everything or specialized characters" for casual gamers: I don't think the latter are a good choice for casual gamers because specialized characters are too group-dependent. And unless you have gaming friends or a clan, this group-dependency can become very frustrating especially in the end game. Had I known this before, I certainly would have played a Shaman as first main (Horde) character, and not a Warrior.

[M0rmegil]

Having only played the EU Final Beta for a week or two and without any previous MMORPG experience, I feel confident in calling myself a casual (WoW-)gamer.

I played the following characters:
NE Druid to lvl 22
Dwarf Paladin to lvl 6
Human Priest to lvl 6
Tauren Shaman to lvl 6
Undead Warlock to lvl 6
and Troll Mage to lvl 3 or 4.

Maybe I am confusing a "new"/"inexperienced" player with a "casual" one, but I would like to say that I would NEVER recommend the paladin as a first character. Due to the lack of a ranged attack at these first few lvls (up to 6 at least), you have a very difficult time early on (relative to all of the other classes I played at least). It is just so easy to get into fights with more creeps than you can handle if you can't pull them one by one from a distance. I think my dwarf died at least 10 times in those 6 lvls, while my other characters died maybe once (if that) in those same lvls. (The druid died a lot more, but that was mostly around lvl 18, trying blackfathom deeps in vain, IIRC).

Of the characters I played, the Shaman definitely felt both the "easiest" and the most "powerful". I played the druid the most, simply because I liked them in Warcraft 3 and was especially attracted to the shape-shifting and wanted to see as many forms as possible in the limited time I had.

[nobbie]

-- double post --

[Tal]

So what level is appropriate for hitting the Deadmines? What about the instance in Darkshore? Have not quested at all in the land of the humans though, so need to pick up quests there some time....
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20 is good for deadmines - 23 to 25 for Blackfathom Depths.

[Jarulf]

20 is good for deadmines - 23 to 25 for Blackfathom Depths.
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Ohh, I will probably be arround 22-23 though when I get over there and have done all the quests leading up to it. Hopefully there are some other lurkers arround that level too, perhaps Bolty want to come, I heared he is an expert on Deadmines and what to not do there if you want to fail :P

[Tal]

Ohh, I will probably be arround 22-23 though when I get over there and have done all the quests leading up to it. Hopefully there are some other lurkers arround that level too, perhaps Bolty want to come, I heared he is an expert on Deadmines and what to not do there if you want to fail :P
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My mage (Tal) and Roane's paladin Hana are coming up to speed for Deadmines. Unfortunately I am on a family related hiatus this week and cannot commit to running any instances. :(

[Treesh]

I can imagine the Shaman is somewhat the equivalent to the Druid on the Horde side,
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Minor nit> The Tauren Druid is the equivalent to the Druid on the Horde side. ;) The shaman is more of a counterpoint to the paladin, including the interrupted long cast heals and helping buff the rest of the group. Shaman are just more spellcasters than the tanks that the pallies lean towards.

[Concillian]

As for second and Horde char, I think I will not get the Shaman, since I feel that one "good at all" character is enough, so I want a more specialized one. I have thought about the Priest (Undead) and probably will do so although it might be similar to the Druid. Have not decided completely yet though.

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Holy/Disc Priest gameplay is fairly similar to Druid...
-1- blam what burst damage and DOT you can while they run at you
-2- melee what pitiful DPS you can
-3- cast Heal over Time
-4- repeat 2 and 3 as necessary, adding in a burst heal as needed
-5- if you run out of mana, die

Druid is essentially the same, except you can add in a shapeshift back and forth into bear or cat form then back into caster when you need to heal.

Shaman is acutually a little less like a Druid than a Priest, I believe. For a total change of pace, I'd choose a non-healing class. In groups Druids will often be relied upon as healers, which is obviously also the role of a Priest. I'd pick one of the other two in an instance group situation (tank or DPS class)

[Rinnhart]

If a paladin not useing the hate seal was pulling aggro he was, quite simply, not doing his job. 

Although there is a school of thought that the MA target should be largely ignored by a warrior in order to secure the other targets because the first MA target will typically go down VERY fast. 

This is generally waht I push with my warrior, as pickup groups are often not patient enough to wait for me to secure aggro on all mobs.

I can't speak for the lvl 60 instances, but for the lower instances, gear is important, but not critical.  These are the same instances where a casual gamer will spend their time.  How much post 60 time will a casual gamer have.  I was able to hold aggro very well in Blackfathom and SFK using a level 20 green dagger and a quest reward shield.  Gear helps your healer, but aggro generation is all about rage and talent build, which doesn't get a huge boost from damage in critical instance scenarios.  Agility gives a small improvement to getting revenge to light up, but not a huge one.

The game changes at the end. You're not entering dungeons with a few levels on what it was designed for. You're in dungeons where the individual mobs can murder you and you rarely get to fight them as individuals.

Damage = aggro. Pile on all the armor and stamina you want, you still won't be as good a tank as the warrior that still lays down a hurt between taunts and sunders.

The more damage you can do, in conjunction with skills and talents, the less likely the adds, that you might have had only minimal time building hate on, are to turn around and chase your priest when he burns heavy blue keeping you alive under some bad crits.

And my boy from above wasn't just doing poor damage, he was light on AC and HP to boot. We needed someone who could generate some snap, take a few hits, and wasn't going to want the drops we did. I prefer running support to MT, anyways; though, I've done it through all the instances. He managed his fights well enough, he didn't break goat, he didn't whine the whole run, he listened to instructions in an instance he hadn't done before, and he left with some slick upgrades for his trouble. A great run on the whole once the servers stopped sucking.

That said, I've done the same instance, faster and safer, with better equipped warriors. Better gear would have polished up the abilities of an able warrior.

Tanking isn't difficult. Tanking well can be. It definately is if you've got a rusty dagger and a cracked sash.

Besides that, I've yet to discover this magical time period during which gankers allow you to change out your gear for the best items to fight their class or build. Have fun on a PvP server.

I'm curious as to HOW gear really helps a warrior in an instance.  Solo it can change things quite a bit, but soloing is pretty easy anyway, especially with a casual gamer getting a nice rested bonus.

DO YOU SEE WHAT YOU'VE DONE? NOW MY BRAIN IS CLAWING ITS WAY OUT THROUGH MY SINUS CAVITY.

[Tal]

If a paladin not useing the hate seal was pulling aggro he was, quite simply, not doing his job. 
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I don't agree with this at all. I've played with warriors both great and mediocre. The times I've pulled aggro without using seal of fury was against the mediocre ones. Hell I can't pull aggro off a great warrior no matter how many times I use Seal of Fury.

[Drasca]

specialized characters are too group-dependent. [right][snapback]78302[/snapback][/right]

None of the classes are extremely group dependent. Some builds are slower killing than others. Protection Warriors, Holy Priests and restoration druids come to mind... but their increased healing and defensive abilities make them all that much harder to kill. That's the trade off, kill faster vs be killed slower.

Leveling wise, I do not recommend protection spec, holy spec, restoration, or any of the group dependent builds. Fury does fine holding aggro throughout all pre-raid instances. Shadow-priest can heal just fine up through 5 man LBRS (end game instance).

Side comment on druid healing: There are occasions I prefer a druid's HoT healing spells to a priest's.

[Artega]

I'd suggest the cookiecutter Arms/Fury build if you want fast leveling and powerful PvP.

It has much higher DPS, meaning you'll level faster.

As it stands, Fury is just pointless; both Fury and Arms builds are DPS-focused, and Arms CLEARLY wins the DPS war.

After 1.50 goes live, a Fury/Arms build featuring Improved Cleave and Sweeping Strikes will probably become the new grinding/farming king, but from what I've heard, 1.50 won't be live until June at the earliest, since they're still fine-tuning the Battlegrounds.

[Tharn]

I wanted to show my girlfriend WoW and let her chose the char. She picked rogue, but she played her bad, because she was battling with controls all the time. Second time I pushed paladin on her and she likes it a lot. Now she has lvl 18 dwarven pala called Agunea on Stormrage (in case you meet her :) ) and she likes it a lot. I do a lot "back-office" stuff for her, like recommendations about gear and talents, AH purchases and whatnot, so I her recommended skinning/mining, because with the generated cash (at the insane prices on SR compared to Tich), she can afford very good weapons for her level.

The reasons why she likes it are following:
- Combat is simple and does not require a lot of button pressing and strategy (she has trouble pulling off Seal of Crusader - Judgement - Seal of Righteousness right now)
- Pala is very forgiving char, with bubble and 70% uniterruptible heal it's easy to kill more opposition at once
- Adds and respawns are little to no problem
- Fresh weapons bought at AH (greens for levels 8, 13, 16, 19 and 23) for cash generated from tradeskills let her dps keep up

She still dies, often quite a lot, mostly because she can't do ranged pulls and gets too many adds with inability to escape (the isles in Loch Modan come to mind). She is not used to running, I must admit (I guess if I gave her mage, she would learn that very quickly ;) ). Even I die with her pala sometimes, because I'm overconfident.

The AH stuff is of course possible only because I'm familiar with the game otherwise, but pala itself is very simple and forgiving class to play. If she finds out it's boring at lvl 40+, she'll at least have keyboard+mouse skills to handle more difficult classes to control. But in this regard, there's no competition.