The 8-debuff limit

[KiloVictor]

As our guild has started into MC and geared up for Onyxia, we've run into some differing understandings of the 8-debuff limit and the strategy that a raid group should use to manage it. I'm interested in what everybody here might know, so I thought I'd post my understanding and ask for comments. Here goes:

Background

The issue arose when we moved into MC. The raid leader gave two directives, which were difficult if not impossible to comply with:
1) Nobody was to use DoTs on any MC mobs, and
2) Only the MT and two warlocks would apply debuffs: Sunder Armor for the MT and CoShadows/CoElements for the warlocks.

Obviously, there are many character builds that have DoTs and/or stacking debuffs that apply with every attack: mages with fireball DoTs; warriors with Rend/Deep Wounds; Rogues with poisons, Hemmorrhage, and Rupture; and shadow priests with Shadow Vulnerability just to name a few.

Previous raids (i.e. UBRS) had no protocol for DoTs and debuffs, except for generally attempting to stack things that had synergies (Curse of Shadows for the shadow priests and warlocks, for example). Since the damage output of a 15-member team is more than enough to get through UBRS there had been no need for a lot of discipline.

When we got to MC, some of the tanks had real difficulties holding aggro, especially on bosses like Lucifron and Magmadar. Even on trash mobs, the raid leader dictated no DoTs or debuffs so that "...sunder armor stays on the mob, because if it comes off the MT will lose aggro." :blink:

Astute readers will have figured out my thoughts on this by now... /boggle.

My Model
From what I've read and what I've seen in game, the following hold true:

1) Aggro (or hate) is separate and distinct from the debuffs applied to the mob. Players generate hate by doing damage or applying threatening debuffs, and once they are on the hate list they stay there. The only exception to this would be classes with the ability to disengage from combat like hunters (Feign Death or Disengage) and rogues (Vanish). Hate is generally proportional to damage caused, but some specific skills and talents generate hate disproportionately.

2) While debuffs may generate hate, wiping the debuff does not cause the hate to be removed. I think of this as "non-forgiveness": if you just laid a walloping big hit on the mob, or stacked another Sunder Armor, the mob increased its hatred of you accordingly. Just because that debuff went away doesn't mean the mob's forgotten or forgiven you for it. So the hate list is in effect a write-only list.

3) Debuffs are only used by the game for evaluating incoming damage to the mob, evaluating damage dealt by the mob, or modifying mob behaviour. For example, a mob with debuffed armor will be more susceptible to physical damage, or a mob afflicted by Silence or Counterspell will be unable to cast and will be forced to melee.

4) The debuff list seems to be strictly first-come first-served - a FIFO queue in geekspeak. Newer debuffs seem to push off the oldest debuffs first, although it may be that the debuffs closest to expiration are chosen -- I'd need to test thoroughly to be sure. I certainly don't think it's random.

5) Debuffs will allow a newer debuff of a lesser rank to overwrite an existing debuff -- unlike player buffs, where a player attempting to overwrite an existing stronger buff will be told that "A more powerful spell is already active." I haven't tested this.

6) Channelled debuffs (Drain Soul, Mind Flay, Drain Life) are never overwritten.

Implications
If the above are correct, the following follow:

1) Wiping a debuff used by a tank to gain aggro will not "... cause the tank to lose aggro." :blink: That doesn't mean that the damage generated while wiping that debuff won't draw aggro, but in that case the tank's loss of aggro is simply a function of him falling behind on the hate list.

2) In an all-out effort to max team DPS, an individual player is best to try for front-loaded damage, since any DoT or back-ended curse (e.g. Curse of Doom) is likely to be pushed off the debuff list before it procs for significant damage. Channelled attacks are second best; DoT is least preferred.

3) If you're looking to max team DPS, it's probably best for people to hold back on debuffs as much as reasonably possible so that a few designated debuffers can keep their debuffs on the target. It seems that the best candidates are Sunder Armor (which should be applied by the MT to help generate more aggro), Curse of Shadows and Curse of Elements (assuming you have 2 warlocks), and mybe Shadow Vulnerability (since you get that for free if there's a shadow priest nuking). There're probably other debufs which ought to be on this list that I'm forgetting.

4) Given that most debuffs can be reapplied fairly quickly, there's no need for players to respec and remove any passive debuffs that are automatically applied on attack.

Questions
I've really only got two questions:

1) How does the above compare to your understanding of the hate list and the debuff slots? Have you observed anything different? Is there linkage between the two?

2) What strategies have you seen used for allocating the debuff slots? What's your favourite?

Any additional comments are welcome, of course. :)

Thanks,
Kv

[mjdoom]

5) Debuffs will allow a newer debuff of a lesser rank to overwrite an existing debuff -- unlike player buffs, where a player attempting to overwrite an existing stronger buff will be told that "A more powerful spell is already active."  I haven't tested this.

[right][snapback]77325[/snapback][/right]

I don't have a good strategy to contribute here but I will say that this is not true in my experience. With my warrior not having the max rank of sunder I have been unable to apply it to mobs with a higher rank sunder (or even expose armor I'm pretty certain). I get a similar "A more powerful spell is already in effect" message.

- mjdoom

[Brista]

I don't have a good strategy to contribute here but I will say that this is not true in my experience.  With my warrior not having the max rank of sunder I have been unable to apply it to mobs with a higher rank sunder (or even expose armor I'm pretty certain).  I get a similar "A more powerful spell is already in effect" message.

- mjdoom
[right][snapback]77329[/snapback][/right]

Confirmed

Concussive shot is always kept out by Frost Shock

[Treesh]

With my warrior not having the max rank of sunder I have been unable to apply it to mobs with a higher rank sunder (or even expose armor I'm pretty certain).  I get a similar "A more powerful spell is already in effect" message.

- mjdoom
[right][snapback]77329[/snapback][/right]

Yes, expose armor conflicts with sunder. I got my druid blamed for fairie fire interfering when I was using expose armor the first time I grouped with a warrior. :D Fairie fire does not interfere with sunder, but expose armor does. :)

[Lissa]

I don't have a good strategy to contribute here but I will say that this is not true in my experience.  With my warrior not having the max rank of sunder I have been unable to apply it to mobs with a higher rank sunder (or even expose armor I'm pretty certain).  I get a similar "A more powerful spell is already in effect" message.

- mjdoom
[right][snapback]77329[/snapback][/right]

Flyndar is correct, lesser debuffs will never overwrite more powerful debuffs. Equal debuffs will overwrite (this is why sunder and expose armor can overwrite each other, they're equal debuffs).

You can see this with a hunter especially. If you have two hunters and one concusive shots, the other can overwrite that with another concusive shot. If one of them does a wingclip, more powerful than concusive shot, if the other tries to concusive shot they will get a message that a more power spell is in effect. So, only equal debuffs and buffs will overwrite each other and a lesser will never overwrite a more powerful debuff or buff.

[Tal]

Yes, expose armor conflicts with sunder.  I got my druid blamed for fairie fire interfering when I was using expose armor the first time I grouped with a warrior. :D  Fairie fire does not interfere with sunder, but expose armor does. :)
[right][snapback]77340[/snapback][/right]

:whistling:

[towelrod]

This is one of the reasons why you shouldn't use expose armor. Even though it is a better debuff than sunder armor as far as removing armor goes, it takes away an important tool from the agro management of the warrior. I'm not a warrior, but from what I've heard, Sunder Armor is one of the best ways to maintain agro on something without using taunt.

[KiloVictor]

You can see this with a hunter especially.  If you have two hunters and one concusive shots, the other can overwrite that with another concusive shot.  If one of them does a wingclip, more powerful than concusive shot, if the other tries to concusive shot they will get a message that a more power spell is in effect.  So, only equal debuffs and buffs will overwrite each other and a lesser will never overwrite a more powerful debuff or buff.
[right][snapback]77341[/snapback][/right]

Hmm, do you think the game engine somehow categorizes debuffs for the purpose of figuring out the most powerful debuff?

I know there's a difference between straight DoTs and debuffs in that DoTs will stack. I've seen lots of cases of having two running at the same time: SW:P, Corruption, CoA.

If Frost Shock overrides Concussive Shot, I presume those are both lumped together as debuffs affecting movement speed. Ditto Sunder Armor, Expose Armor, and maybe Faerie Fire -- debuffs to AC, so there can only be one active? Similarly there must be debuffs for various categories of resistances (arcance, fire, frost, nature), melee damage, etc.

If that's the case, one ought to be able to assemble a list by category: debuffs applied by each class, and the maximum debuff effect they can have. Then the rules for a raid group become pretty simple, you just ban the few skills that interfere with one of the necessary skills used by another class. So in the case of rogue vs. MT, no Expose Armor because you'll interfere with Sunder Armor.... but you can Garrotte, Hemmorrhage, etc. to your heart's content.

The weird ones to figure out might be combo DoT/snare effects like Mind Flay. Does applying them overwrite other snares like Concussive Shot that might be in effect, or does the Concussive Shot stay in effect and the snare effect of MF get neglected? That's a bad example, I think they're both a 50% snare, but I could go test that out with one of my hunter buddies and Improved Wing Clip against my Mind Flay.

Hmmm...

Kv

[Quark]

Pure snares, anything with %reduced movement speed, are lumped under the same roof. The strongest will apply.

Pure stuns, including Impact, Blackout, HoJ, Cheap Shot, and Kidney Shot, are lumped together. This is not always a case of "strongest". Here's what I observed:

Impact is "stronger" than Cheap Shot and Kidney Shot. Don't ask me why, it only lasts one second.

Cheap Shots, Kidney Shots, and HoJs will overwrite each other if the new stun duration would be longer. So a 3 point Kidney Shot (4 seconds) would not overwrite a 5pt -> unless the 5pt has already been on for more than 2 seconds.

I don't know the full mechanics of Expose Armor vs Sunder Armor. All I know is to not touch Expose Armor, it ticks off the Warrior :unsure:. It might be the same as stuns, where the stronger one wins. That would make any +2pt Expose Armor real bad, because that means the Sunder can't be applied at all.

[Treesh]

It might be the same as stuns, where the stronger one wins.  That would make any +2pt Expose Armor real bad, because that means the Sunder can't be applied at all.
[right][snapback]77364[/snapback][/right]

This is exactly what happens and that's why rogues don't use expose armor in groups with warriors. The warrior needs to use sunder for aggro. I'm just as happy using my combo points for other things and letting the warrior use sunder. It was just the first time I ever grouped with a warrior with a baby Eth, I didn't know it interfered with sunder. Tal let it go for a fight or two then politely "yelled" at Taranna to lay off the faerie fire when it was my expose armor that was causing the issue. This was back in blackfathom deeps (didn't bother to go into the deadmines with those two, iirc). Haven't used it around a warrior since.

Edit: Nope, it wasn't BFD, it was in fact the deadmines. All I could remember was that it was her first instance and first grouping with a warrior. I didn't mind laying off the expose armor at all after seeing how much Gnolack used it for holding generation.

And an addition, it depends upon how many sunders the warrior has already applied that affects what combo point "level" the Expose armor has to be to be applied. If you're quick though and get in a 2 pt EA before the warrior can even put one on, you've screwed the sunder being put on.

[Xanthix]

I'm not sure if once debuffs are removed, the threat they caused remains. But regardless, it is probably a good idea to leave a few debuff slots open for the MT to use, and I could see a raid group being very protective of these.

The warrior definately needs to use Sunder Armor. Even if the threat remains if SA is removed, the warrior needs the debuff active to ensure he/she can do enough damage to compete with the casters. The warrior will also probably want slots open for stun or rend to stay active, to keep the mob stunned or add rend's bleed damage to the threat caused.

[Kevin]

I don't know the full mechanics of Expose Armor vs Sunder Armor.  All I know is to not touch Expose Armor, it ticks off the Warrior :unsure:.  It might be the same as stuns, where the stronger one wins.  That would make any +2pt Expose Armor real bad, because that means the Sunder can't be applied at all.
[right][snapback]77364[/snapback][/right]

It gets a little interesting in that you can apply sunder multiple times and sunder can block expose armor as well. So 2 applications of Sunder would prevent a 2pt expose from going on but not a 3pt expose. But once a higher expose is on there is no way to get a sunder in there until is wears off. Multiple warriors sundering with the same skill level add applications to the same debuff as well so 2 warriors can tear down the armor pretty quick.

Faerie Fire as has been mentioned stacks with expose or sunder though and while it maxes at 505 armor that can be a nice addition to physical DPS.

[Raelynn]

As a side note, this is on the table to be reviewed and most likely changed. The warlocks once had this pretty high up in the priority on the warlock problem list (it does affect all classes but probably most highly the warlocks). It most likely will only affect end game raids but that's all that's really important.

[MongoJerry]

I'm not sure if once debuffs are removed, the threat they caused remains. But regardless, it is probably a good idea to leave a few debuff slots open for the MT to use, and I could see a raid group being very protective of these.

My understanding is that the aggro is generated up front and is not removed once the debuff comes off. I regularly raid Molten Core with a pretty high powered group, and we don't have any rules like this. Warriors sunder armor whenever it's available and I believe use Shield Bash, since it causes so much aggro. Having Sunder Armor run off the 8-debuff limit hasn't caused any problems for us, and anyway the warrior is going to reuse it again as soon as he can, so who cares?

The only time we have any issues with the 8-debuff limit is when we're fighting Sulfuron, who has four healer guards who cast healing spells both on themselves and each other. We pull guards away from the pack one at a time to kill, of course, but while that prevents the guard being killed from being healed by his buddies, the guard can still heal himself. So, we always make sure that we have a Mortal Strike debuff, which lowers healing by 50%, on the guards at all times and have a rule there that no one should use any debuffing skills during that fight other than warriors. But that's a special case limited to that fight. Otherwise, people are welcome to use Hunter's Mark, SW:Pain, or whatever else they want in our raids.

[Drasca]

As you've seen, Sunder armor isn't an issue.

The early non boss mobs in MC seem to have a 5 debuff, not 8 debuff limit from what I've witnessed. If warrior is having trouble holding aggro, everyone should wait an additional 30 seconds to a minute letting him build aggro. Raid leaders should be announcing when to hold back, when to Attack DPS.

The only debuffs that globally increase dps are CoE/CoS. Rend/Deep Wounds/Bleed helps warrior aggro, although how much I cannot say. Ideally in a 40 man situation, only CoE/CoS should actively be refreshed alongside the warrior debuffs. Don't bother with dots on regular mobs. If stuns/effects apply, go for it, but in DPS mode only CoS should really be refreshed actively. No DoTs.

[Boutros]

Rend/Deep Wounds/Bleed helps warrior aggro, although how much I cannot say. [right][snapback]77494[/snapback][/right]

Virtually everything in Molten Core is immune to bleed effects, I get a big yellow immune every time I crit. The only things that might not be are the naga bosses and their guards. I have no idea if the aggro portion of these skills still works on immune mobs but they don't do damage or take up a debuff slot, although they might still clear a debuff from the list as I've heard reports of improved blizzard wiping a debuff when used on monsters immune to its slow effect.

[Concillian]

The only debuffs that globally increase dps are CoE/CoS.
[right][snapback]77494[/snapback][/right]

Umm, sunder isn't a global DPS increase?

[Concillian]

5) Debuffs will allow a newer debuff of a lesser rank to overwrite an existing debuff -- unlike player buffs, where a player attempting to overwrite an existing stronger buff will be told that "A more powerful spell is already active."  I haven't tested this.

[right][snapback]77325[/snapback][/right]

It used to give the more powerful effect message, but I think MC was one of the big reasons they changed that and improved sunder armor.

Scenario 1:
MT has aggro well under control, MT has (old) improved sunder
MT dies due to unexpected DPS spike
Secondary tank tries desperately to secure aggro with un-improved sunder:
"A more powerful effect is already active"

Guaranteed wipe

Scenario 2:
MT has aggro well under control
Some rogue decides to (or accidentally) use Expose Armor
MT cannot sunder for the duration of the Expose Armor because "A more powerful effect is already active"

not a guaranteed wipe, but it will give the MT fits if the rogue continues in this vein.

I think these were the main motivating factors to the recent changes to how the effects wipe each other and to improved sunder.

[Tal]

This is one of the reasons why you shouldn't use expose armor.  Even though it is a better debuff than sunder armor as far as removing armor goes, it takes away an important tool from the agro management of the warrior.  I'm not a warrior, but from what I've heard, Sunder Armor is one of the best ways to maintain agro on something without using taunt.
[right][snapback]77354[/snapback][/right]

I'm not certain why you replied to me but as the warrior doing the "yelling" in Treesh's post I feel I should verify that yes I do realize the value of sunder armor for maintaining aggro. ;)

[Zarathustra]

1) Wiping a debuff used by a tank to gain aggro will not "... cause the tank to lose aggro."

More accurately, it will wipe out the Sunder Armor that is ALLOWING him to build more aggro. By destroying that Sunder debuff, you're raising the mob's armor by over 2000, lowering the amount of aggro the MT is ABLE to generate through decreasing his damage output.