Mechanics/Stats on proc chances for weapon enchant

[vor_lord]

So my paladin has obtained his "defensive" weapon, a Hanzo Sword. It is great for what I use it for, which is judging Wisdom and milking it for lots of mana. As a blacksmith, I also can add +8 with a stone, and the DPS is really not too bad. Sometimes when I'm sick of the unpredictability of Seal of Command and my two hander, I'll judge Wisdom, use seal of the crusader, and spam Consecration like mad to keep the DPS up to about the same level as SoC. Swinging every .9 seconds with an 11% chance to hit means my Vengeance is on most of the time, and if I get an add midfight I'm already set up to go conservative and outlast groups.

My casual playstyle indicates I have little chance of ever getting something to replace this (I primarily use two handers anyway), so I'd like to buy a decent enchant for it.

My understanding is that chance to proc weapon enchants (like fiery, lifesteal, and crusader) work just like a paladin seal. That is, they have a set proc per minute stat that will proc basically the same number of times per minute no matter what your weapon speed is.

Can anyone confirm this about these enchantments? I do see people on other boards claiming that fiery, for example, is a straight chance to go off (like a paladin judgment), but I can't trust those sources.

As this is a defensive weapon, I think a lifesteal enchant (especially if it is a straight percentage chance to proc on hit) would be perfect. It is so pricey that it isn't worth it for a secondary weapon.

I wouldn't mind the 30g or so for a fiery enchant, but I need to know what the PPM is to see if it would be better than a +4 on a weapon this fast.

Any enchanters or heavy enchant users care to help clear up my confusion? If these enchants are PPM based (like I think), do we have generally accepted numbers for each of the interesting engame enchants?

[lemekim]

I don't know about Fiery enchant, but from what I've seen/tested, Lifesteal is 5 ppm and Crusader is 1 ppm.

My guess is that Fiery is also 5 ppm and does not depend on weapon speed, but I can't be sure.

[Zarathustra]

In the opinion of other Lurkers, which is the better enchant overall: Crusader or Lifestealing?

I had that discussion with a friend the other day. He's saying Crusader would be better for his 2H Axe Warrior (who may be going weapon/shield very soon), and I'm thinking Lifestealing due to the number of procs and the added damage.

[LavCat]

In the opinion of other Lurkers, which is the better enchant overall:  Crusader or Lifestealing?

I had that discussion with a friend the other day.  He's saying Crusader would be better for his 2H Axe Warrior (who may be going weapon/shield very soon), and I'm thinking Lifestealing due to the number of procs and the added damage.
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I use both, thanks to Ynir and Lissa. I am not sure one is better than the other, but they are different. Fafner has Crusader on her Hanzo. Holy Strength does not proc that often, but when it does Hanzo is fast enough to get in a lot of swings while it is active (particularly if flurry decides to proc as well).

Tribade has Lifesteal on her Frightskull Shaft. No roleplayer in their right mind would put Crusader on such an item! The pretty purple color is just right, and I've seen Lifesteal proc three times in succession. When Hammer of the Grand Crusader drops for her, she will let you know.

[lemekim]

In the opinion of other Lurkers, which is the better enchant overall:  Crusader or Lifestealing?

I had that discussion with a friend the other day.  He's saying Crusader would be better for his 2H Axe Warrior (who may be going weapon/shield very soon), and I'm thinking Lifestealing due to the number of procs and the added damage.
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They both have their pros and cons over each other. Here are some key differences, given that Crusader is 1 ppm and Life Steal is 5 ppm, and the fight is taking about a minute:

1) With life steal healing you for 30, and crusader for 75-125, you will on average heal more life from life steal (150 vs 100).

2) The actual average damage increase will usually be higher for Crusader. For rogues, while 100 str is only 7 dps increase for 15 seconds, their instant attacks also benefit from the proc, which can easily translate into 15 extra dps for 15 seconds, or 225 extra damage. Paladins get 14 extra dps, and will on average get 210 extra damage from the proc (more if SoC procs). Warriors will benefit the most, since they not only get 14 dps bonus, they also have instant attacks that would benefit from the proc, which can easily add to 300 extra damage.

On the other hand, Life steal proc will always be 150 damage from 5 proc (which is the average), and is NOT affected by armor. So against certain mobs you might actually do more damage with Life steal.

Another point to note however is that in order to benefit from Crusader proc, you have to actually hit the target to get benefit from it. So while you might crit 3 times in a row with Crusader on, you might also miss 3 times in a row, wasting it completely. Or you can proc, get feared and waste the time. Life steal on the other hand, if it proced, it already did damage/healed you.

3) Crusader does not happen too often, but when it does, it's quite a noticeable difference. Life steal on the other hand happens often enough so that it can be almost treated as constant extra damage.

4) The frequency of procing can be increased through usage of instant attacks.


So what does this all mean? Taking the 2-hand axe warrior example:

Crusader iwould be most useful in the following situations:

- You have to fight for prolonged periods of time (over 25 seconds at a time, since otherwise half the time the battle will be over while you still have the proc on, thus wasting it)
- You have freedom to do damage (so you are not spending a lot of time rooted, disarmed, feared, as it might happen against certain mobs, or in certain PvP situation), because it can waste a lot of proc time.

A good example would be soloing/duoing elite mobs, or taking on 2-3 mobs at a time. Most warriors can kill non-elite mobs in under 25 seconds without a problem. Its also good for that chance to do higher burst dps.

Life steal is more constant, and it does both a heal and damage. So it is best used when you take some damage, for example soloing, or as a tank, and do not want to rely on a chance. Another good use would be against mobs that have high armor value, as it is not affected by it.

[towelrod]

Let me see if I have the math right. Fiery procs 5 times per minute, for 40 damage each time. That's an expected 200 points of damage over one minute.

+5 gives 5 more damage on every swing. On a 1.5 speed weapon (like an offhand dagger), that equates to:

60 seconds / 1.5 * 5 = 200 damage over one minute.

So if a weapon is faster than 1.5, then a +5 is better. If the weapon is slower, then fiery is better.

Is that about right?

[lemekim]

Let me see if I have the math right.  Fiery procs 5 times per minute, for 40 damage each time.  That's an expected 200 points of damage over one minute.

+5 gives 5 more damage on every swing.  On a 1.5 speed weapon (like an offhand dagger), that equates to:

60 seconds / 1.5 * 5 = 200 damage over one minute.

So if a weapon is faster than 1.5, then a +5 is better.  If the weapon is slower, then fiery is better.

Is that about right?
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Well there is one key difference between them. One is affected by armor, and the other isn't. But afaik fiery can be resisted (Especially by mobs with immunity to fire or high fire resists).

Also, if you are enchanting off-hand, it is generally better to use fiery proc, since it does full damage, while the damage enchant will be reduced by off-hand penalty.

[vor_lord]

Well there is one key difference between them. One is affected by armor, and the other isn't. But afaik fiery can be resisted (Especially by mobs with immunity to fire or high fire resists).

Also, if you are enchanting off-hand, it is generally better to use fiery proc, since it does full damage, while the damage enchant will be reduced by off-hand penalty.
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While bored in my seminar today, I did the same numbers and decided fiery > +5, even with seal of the crusader (which would make my 1.5 spd weapon a 0.9 speed weapon) due to the armor reduction.

Last I checked on my server lifesteal and crusader were both ~100g -- too much for a secondary weapon (heck the sword only cost me 50g). I think lifesteal would be ideal for my usage of it, but it's just too costly. Fiery is about 30-35g, and I might spring for that. +4 was 18g, and I don't know about a +5. I'm a little less interested in buying one, realizing that my +8 from the stone is better than a fiery enchant.

I probably will get crusader if/when I get a semi end game two hander.

Thanks everyone for the data and the discussion, this is all good to know.

[Quark]

Well there is one key difference between them.
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There's another. This doesn't apply so much to vor_lord, but the nice thing about +damage is that it's added to the weapon's base damage, it's not a proc. So that makes it more attractive to a Rogue, where their Ambush or Backstab gets to use their +% modifiers.

I did some theorycraft when I got my Lifesteal enchant. *Disclaimer* I can't remember what the numbers came out to be *End disclaimer* but I remember deciding the tangible bonus of Lifesteal - getting life back - made it worth it.

[Skandranon]

even with seal of the crusader (which would make my 1.5 spd weapon a 0.9 speed weapon)
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This is not actually true. 40% increased attack speed is not equal to -40% attack delay. -40% attack delay is actually 66% increased attack speed. SotC makes your weapon 1.07 speed.

[acidjax]

As this is a defensive weapon, I think a lifesteal enchant (especially if it is a straight percentage chance to proc on hit)  would be perfect.
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One thing to consider about both enchants is that equipment influences them. Being a paladin, you're more likely to have +healing items so crusader may be more beneficial. Examine a piece of gear like the Whitesoul Helm. It says that it "Increases healing done by spells and effects by up to 35." Crusader heal is a healing effect and from my experience you get 100% of the +healing for this proc's heal. I don't know the percentage lifesteal receives from +magic effects.

It is very noticeable that lifesteal procs more often then crusader but I don't think it's at 5x the amount per minute.

[vor_lord]

This is not actually true.  40% increased attack speed is not equal to -40% attack delay.  -40% attack delay is actually 66% increased attack speed.  SotC makes your weapon 1.07 speed.
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Correction noted. The character screen got it right, just not me. Even more in favor of fiery from a pure DPS standpoint then.

[towelrod]

There's another.  This doesn't apply so much to vor_lord, but the nice thing about +damage is that it's added to the weapon's base damage, it's not a proc.  So that makes it more attractive to a Rogue, where their Ambush or Backstab gets to use their +% modifiers.

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Are you sure about that? I always thought the +5 was added on at the end off all the multipliers. If it is added on before the multipliers, then it would be huge. I don't have a source for my version of it; its just always what I have thought.

[Phoenix]

Are you sure about that?  I always thought the +5 was added on at the end off all the multipliers.  If it is added on before the multipliers, then it would be huge.  I don't have a source for my version of it; its just always what I have thought.
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Most Rogues are curious about this, too. I haven't seen any proof either way.

[Quark]

Are you sure about that?  I always thought the +5 was added on at the end off all the multipliers.  If it is added on before the multipliers, then it would be huge.  I don't have a source for my version of it; its just always what I have thought.
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I'm not sure, but either way it wouldn't be huge. +5 for Ambush means +12.5 (+13.5 with talents). For Backstab, it means +7.5 (+8.5 with talents, though it would benefit more from Lethality and crits). Given that Ambush and Backstab should crit alot with talents, it means 1 Ambush and 2 Backstabs will do some more damage than 1 Lifesteal, but take no life back for you. By the point my second Backstab goes off, I've almost always gotten one Lifesteal and often get two. The +5 damage would be more consistent, but Lifesteal more useful overall in my opinion.

[Metrocube]

Fiery procs 5 times per minute, for 40 damage each time.

Are you folks sure about this?

I've had fiery enchant on two 2-handed axes, both speed 2.80. When I've compare my fiery proc to my attack swings, it's very close to a flat 1:5 ratio.

[vor_lord]

Are you folks sure about this?

Sure is a very strong word to use when one can't see any of the game code :)

I've had fiery enchant on two 2-handed axes, both speed 2.80.  When I've compare my fiery proc to my attack swings, it's very close to a flat 1:5 ratio.
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Well:

1.67 * PPM * WeaponSpd = % to proc

1.67 * 5 * 2.80 = 23.38%

That is pretty close to 1:5 -- your data seems to indicate perhaps it is less than 5 PPM:

PPM = 20/(2.8 * 1.67) = 4.3 PPM

Is your question whether or not fiery is PPM based? Then we need data from different speed weapons. Is it about the actual PPM? Then it's all empirical and the more accurate data the better. Doesn't appear to me though that this thread and your observance are really all that far off.

[Magicbag]

Also wanted to mention, that although fiery enchant might not be good for MC and Onyxia for obvious reasons, mobs that are not fire resistant/immune can be damaged more with a fiery enchant becasue debufs like warlock's elements and mage's scorch work with it.
-MB

[Carnifex]

Hello, long time lurker, first time poster.

Two other guild members and I tested the high-end enchants quite extensively.

I dont have the data in front of me but I will give the set-up and the results.
Basicly, we (me, lvl 60 rogue and 2 lvl 60 warriors) equipped an enchanted weapon in the main-hand and a useless-twig-of-no-off-hand-attack in the off-hand. Our target of choice was level 50 turtles in tanaris. We would only use default attack. Each enchant was tested on at least two differant weapon speeds for at least 1500 swings each. We were able, with the data compiled, to come up with a formula to determine the proc rate.

The formula: (weapon speed in seconds) / (X) = Proc percentage.
X is differant for each enchant.
Crusader X=40
Lifesteal X=10
Fiery X=10
Icy chill X=60

For example, an Assassination Blade (2.7 speed) with crusader would proc (2.7) / (40) = 6.75 %.

Follow-up, realistic, testing show the following:

Enchants only proc on hits, never on misses, dodges, or parries.
Enchants can proc on instant attacks.
They will proc on the off-hand weapons (there is a rumor out there that they don't).
Resists on lifesteal (shadow) and fiery (fire) only happen on a regular basis at the MC/Onyxia level.
Crusader procs do not stack, they reset the +100 strength timer to 15 seconds (Still get a full heal)
Icy Chill is, by far, the most useless enchant in the game (20% reduced attack speed for 5 seconds, which is about one less attack, and a hopelessly low proc rate).

Oh, and by the way, +5 damage enchant is BEFORE all modifiers (backstab, mortal stike, ect.). Keep in mind it is also subject to armor reduction as well.

[lemekim]

They will proc on the off-hand weapons (there is a rumor out there that they don't).

Thanks for testing this.

But to address the quote, does this mean that if you have a proc enchant on both weapons it will proc more often? Or does it simply mean that if you have no enchant in Main hand and, say, Crusader in offhand, you will still be able to proc Crusader at normal proc rate?