I am curious about something....

[Guest]

In the few time that I disagreed with you and you tried to defend yourself with facts it turned out you didnt even know what you were talking about more than once.


Im not saying you are always wrong, but you frequently take positions and when people reasonably attack them you fall back on "You just cant see Im right because you are not as smart/understanding/ knowing as me."

It becomes old.

You are becoming the definition of a buffoon. I suspect a good many people here humor you either for their own ammusment or out of sympathy.

[Occhidiangela]

In the few time that  I disagreed with you and you tried to defend yourself with facts it turned out you didnt even know what you were talking about more than once.
Im not saying you are always wrong, but you frequently take positions and when people reasonably attack them you fall back on "You just cant see Im right because you are not as smart/understanding/ knowing as me."

It becomes old.

You are becoming the definition of a buffoon. I suspect a good many people here humor you either for their own ammusment or out of sympathy.
[right][snapback]80305[/snapback][/right]

With that, I think that Doc and Ghostiger have concluded another round of mutual egg throwing.

Request further personal disagreement be pursued via PM.

Coffee, anyone? :rolleyes:

Occhi

[Archon_Wing]

With that, I think that Doc and Ghostiger have concluded another round of mutual egg throwing. 

Request further personal disagreement be pursued via PM.

Coffee, anyone?  :rolleyes:

Occhi
[right][snapback]80328[/snapback][/right]

Actualy I'd prefer some scambled eggs, graciously provided by the two when they were fighting.

[Doc]

Actualy I'd prefer some scambled eggs, graciously provided by the two when they were fighting.
[right][snapback]80329[/snapback][/right]

I don't remember throwing eggs... I remember gathering eggs this morning...

Hey waitaminute... Did some pot just call this old kettle black?

I AM SHOCKED, SHOCKED I TELL YOU!!!

Now, you like scrambled eggs eh? Want that with a side of peppery smoked bacon, some ham, a few biscuits, and some sausage gravy? And a nice wedge of goat cheese... It is a yummy meal I assure you!

[Archon_Wing]

I don't remember throwing eggs... I remember gathering eggs this morning...

Hey waitaminute... Did some pot just call this old kettle black?

I AM SHOCKED, SHOCKED I TELL YOU!!!

Now, you like scrambled eggs eh? Want that with a side of peppery smoked bacon, some ham, a few biscuits, and some sausage gravy? And a nice wedge of goat cheese... It is a yummy meal I assure you!
[right][snapback]80337[/snapback][/right]

Fine with me, I was just looking for something to eat. ;)

[Assur]

[quote=Ashock,Jun 10 2005, 05:10 PM]
Here's what I'm curious about:

Hi

Basically all this is old stuff. The case has been around on all the news-sites about South Asia for years! Whilst all this has been about Islam, the original cause was about the brother allegedly having an affair with a high caste woman (it seems the brother had witnessed a man of the high caste having sex with a donkey and talking about it) and the village council (dominated by members of the high caste) condemned the woman to be raped as a punishment. Basically this high caste against low caste, a holdover from Hinduism, you can find similar stuff in Bihar or UP.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4085178.stm

It seems the woman has now been banned from leaving Pakistan.

[Ashock]

Hi

Basically all this is old stuff. The case has been around on all the news-sites about South Asia for years! Whilst all this has been about Islam, the original cause was about the brother allegedly having an affair with a high caste woman (it seems the brother had witnessed a man of the high caste having sex with a donkey and talking about it) and the village council (dominated by members of the high caste) condemned the woman to be raped as a punishment. Basically this high caste against low caste, a holdover from Hinduism, you can find similar stuff in Bihar or UP.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4085178.stm

It seems the woman has now been banned from leaving Pakistan.
[right][snapback]80350[/snapback][/right]

Yes, this is not something new. However, it is something that happens relatively regularly in that type of culture and I was just using it as an example. My original post asked about non-Muslim females. It did not ask about violence in Islam. That is beyond arguing about anyway, and I do not want to argue about this, since that is pointless. What is competely irrefutable, is that females in Islam are treated worse, much worse than second class citizens. The comparisons between the west of 50-60 years ago and Islam of today are complete garbage, as women in muslim societies don't just have less rights, they have no rights, and it does not look like things are going to change without intervention.

I've read arguments about why Islam is or is not ..... [insert whatever]. I still have not heard arguments as to why any sane Western female would support that culture, considering that if they were a part of it, they would be on par with a cow.... maybe. Not that I was expecting any.


-A



ps. I did not have a connection to the internet over the weekend, so unfortunately could not participate in this "discussion". I still don't from home, but I do from work. Sorry Occhy, but I think you did a nice job without me ;-)

[Occhidiangela]

ps. I did not have a connection to the internet over the weekend, so unfortunately could not participate in this "discussion". I still don't from home, but I do from work. Sorry Occhy, but I think you did a nice job without me ;-)
[right][snapback]80422[/snapback][/right]

What I wonder is: is it necessary for the "rights" of women in Islamic societies to change?

Does anyone blame the leadership of Islamic societies for being violentlly bitter about what they see as coercive attempts to upset their social order? I won't say I agree with their cultural set up, I don't, but I do understand their emotional reaction to what they see as outsiders messing with their way of life.

I note that we had a vicious civil war over something along those lines. The culture war between "modernism" and "traditional Islam" and even "traditional Hindu" culture is hardly over. And it is very much a war.

Occhi

[eppie]

I've read arguments about why Islam is or is not ..... [insert whatever]. I still have not heard arguments as to why any sane Western female would support that culture, considering that if they were a part of it, they would be on par with a cow.... maybe. Not that I was expecting any.
-A
ps. I did not have a connection to the internet over the weekend, so unfortunately could not participate in this "discussion". I still don't from home, but I do from work. Sorry Occhy, but I think you did a nice job without me ;-)
[right][snapback]80422[/snapback][/right]

Well it is all about faith and religion is it. Also in Holland we have women that support a political party, that says that women have less rights. And as I said before, muslim faith does not say you have to gang rape women, so somebody that wants to be muslim does not support that. I mean do you say the same thing for somebody that is going to be catholic?
I think you are making a kind of circle reasoning here. You say " why any sane Western female would support that culture"....but we are not talking about a culture here, we are talking about a religion that in origin, just as christianity, is something peaceful. That in practice supporters of religions, just like other people, are not always peaceful is another thing.

[gekko]

I've read arguments about why Islam is or is not ..... [insert whatever]. I still have not heard arguments as to why any sane Western female would support that culture, considering that if they were a part of it, they would be on par with a cow.... maybe. Not that I was expecting any.
[right][snapback]80422[/snapback][/right]

It doesn't sound to me like you're interested in hearing arguments or an honest debate on the issue you brought up. Your reasoning, near as I can tell, follows the following logic:

1) Islam = stripping women of all rights and freedoms (not that this is all Islam is; but rather that this is one integral aspect of Islam)
2) Supporting the culture of Islam = supporting or at least condoning stripping women of these rights

I disagree that Islam neccessarily strips women of their rights and freedoms. So while I am not a woman, and I don't specifically support Islam (or, for that matter, any particular religion), I do support each person's right to choose for themselves. Furthermore, I reject the idea that any person or group of persons can perfectly lay down "the rules" from any god(s). I don't believe there is any particular "right" or "wrong" way to live. For me, that means that I call myself a Catholic and attend church, while vigorously opposing several major - and many minor - decisions of the pope and the church in general. For the "any western female" you aimed your original question at, I would suppose that that would mean belonging to an Islamic faith while not supporting gang-rapes. Doesn't seem to be a major contradiction to me, even if Muslims in general considered gang-rapes to be an appropriate and acceptable "punishment" (which I also do not believe).

The actions were brutal and unnaceptable - you will find no argument against that here. Your leaps of logic from that point on, however, are far less solid.

gekko

[Ashock]

It doesn't sound to me like you're interested in hearing arguments or an honest debate on the issue you brought up.  Your reasoning, near as I can tell, follows the following logic:

I disagree that Islam neccessarily strips women of their rights and freedoms.  So while I am not a woman, and I don't specifically support Islam (or, for that matter, any particular religion), I do support each person's right to choose for themselves.  Furthermore, I reject the idea that any person or group of persons can perfectly lay down "the rules" from any god(s).  I don't believe there is any particular "right" or "wrong" way to live.  For me, that means that I call myself a Catholic and attend church, while vigorously opposing several major - and many minor - decisions of the pope and the church in general.  For the "any western female" you aimed your original question at, I would suppose that that would mean belonging to an Islamic faith while not supporting gang-rapes.  Doesn't seem to be a major contradiction to me, even if Muslims in general considered gang-rapes to be an appropriate and acceptable "punishment" (which I also do not believe).

gekko
[right][snapback]80437[/snapback][/right]

You can disagree all you want ("I disagree that Islam neccessarily strips women of their rights and freedoms"), however it is a fact.
You can support any person's right to choose all you want - unfortunately, beyond the western world, and especially in some parts of the world, that support is useless. Support is nice, but only when it is enforceble.

"Any western female" means non-Muslim, not Muslim. I thought that was obvious. As far as not believing that "gang rapes" are acceptible in that society, again you can see what you believe or you can believe what you see...it's up to you.



-A

[Doc]

You can disagree all you want ("I disagree that Islam neccessarily strips women of their rights and freedoms"), however it is a fact.
You can support any person's right to choose all you want - unfortunately, beyond the western world, and especially in some parts of the world, that support is useless. Support is nice, but only when it is enforceble.

"Any western female" means non-Muslim, not Muslim. I thought that was obvious. As far as not believing that "gang rapes" are acceptible in that society, again you can see what you believe or you can believe what you see...it's up to you.
-A
[right][snapback]80438[/snapback][/right]

I can't bite my tongue any more. I try to be a very tolerant sort of man.

But any sect or group that supports gang rape needs to be rounded up and exterminated from the face of this earth, no questions asked, with no mercy or quarter given. Run them down, make the sand run red with blood, and leave their bodies for the vultures.

The world would be better off minus those views.

I apologise. Sort of. I am sick and tired of seeing this ball being bounced around and people seem to be forgetting that THESE MEN WERE RAPISTS!!! AND THAT THIS IS A RAPIST CULTURE!!! There is no excuse for that. Hunt them all down and slaughter them like pigs.

[gekko]

I can't bite my tongue any more. I try to be a very tolerant sort of man.

But any sect or group that supports gang rape needs to be rounded up and exterminated from the face of this earth, no questions asked, with no mercy or quarter given. Run them down, make the sand run red with blood, and leave their bodies for the vultures.

The world would be better off minus those views.

I apologise. Sort of. I am sick and tired of seeing this ball being bounced around and people seem to be forgetting that THESE MEN WERE RAPISTS!!! AND THAT THIS IS A RAPIST CULTURE!!! There is no excuse for that. Hunt them all down and slaughter them like pigs.
[right][snapback]80441[/snapback][/right]

Right. Let's just keep shootin' until everyone who disagrees with us is dead.

Doc, I can't in conscience disagree that these particular men were worse than a waste of space and air - much worse. However, the methods you suggest for these guys, much like your solution for pretty much anything and everything that annoys you - which seems to be quite a bit - is not a solution at all. It's a temporary band-aid fix that maybe helps you to sleep better at night, and is certainly more just than what actually happened in this case. However, if we don't attack the root of the problem (and I don't mean with guns and bombs) the problems just keep coming.

gekko

[Doc]

Right.  Let's just keep shootin' until everyone who disagrees with us is dead.

Doc, I can't in conscience disagree that these particular men were worse than a waste of space and air - much worse.  However, the methods you suggest for these guys, much like your solution for pretty much anything and everything that annoys you - which seems to be quite a bit - is not a solution at all.  It's a temporary band-aid fix that maybe helps you to sleep better at night, and is certainly more just than what actually happened in this case.  However, if we don't attack the root of the problem (and I don't mean with guns and bombs) the problems just keep coming.

gekko
[right][snapback]80456[/snapback][/right]

I would rather be the man that stands up for what he believes in and says the wrong thing, then be the spineless jellyfish that said nothing at all. Or worse, defend this sort of evil.

Nuff said on my part. I need to go back to lurking because this issue inflames my rage more than any other. Nothing, and I mean nothing, will get me riled faster than this sort of stuff.

[gekko]

I would rather be the man that stands up for what he believes in and says the wrong thing, then be the spineless jellyfish that said nothing at all. Or worse, defend this sort of evil.

Nuff said on my part. I need to go back to lurking because this issue inflames my rage more than any other. Nothing, and I mean nothing, will get me riled faster than this sort of stuff.
[right][snapback]80459[/snapback][/right]

Oooooh, I'd better keep going then :). Just kidding, of course. I for one am not here just to get you riled up.

I would like to leave one question for you, however. How well do you think you would have done had you grown up in the kind of environment we're talking about here? Or any other similar environment. Do you honestly think those stupid kids strapping bombs to themselves in the middle east ever had a chance? Do they deserve to be shot because they've been pumped so full of hate since they were born that they can't see anything else?

gekko

[Doc]

Oooooh, I'd better keep going then :).  Just kidding, of course.  I for one am not here just to get you riled up.

I would like to leave one question for you, however.  How well do you think you would have done had you grown up in the kind of environment we're talking about here?  Or any other similar environment.  Do you honestly think those stupid kids strapping bombs to themselves in the middle east ever had a chance?  Do they deserve to be shot because they've been pumped so full of hate since they were born that they can't see anything else?

gekko
[right][snapback]80461[/snapback][/right]

I loathe you and your questions... BAH HUMBUG!!!

No. Children should not be rounded up and exterminated. That is clearly not the answer here, and your question it self is something I my self am guilty of, inciting knee jerk emotional responses.

I realise when I have been hoisted by my own petard. Point taken. <_< You have my grudging respect for exposing my feet of clay.

[Ashock]

Oooooh, I'd better keep going then :).&nbsp; Just kidding, of course.&nbsp; I for one am not here just to get you riled up.

I would like to leave one question for you, however.&nbsp; How well do you think you would have done had you grown up in the kind of environment we're talking about here?&nbsp; Or any other similar environment.&nbsp; Do you honestly think those stupid kids strapping bombs to themselves in the middle east ever had a chance?&nbsp; Do they deserve to be shot because they've been pumped so full of hate since they were born that they can't see anything else?

gekko
[right][snapback]80461[/snapback][/right]

I think that it would be hypocritical to shout that "I would be different". The reality is that most of us probably would not. However, while that is the case, it still does not change reality and that reality is that these people are very very dangerous. Also, again while it somewhat mitigates their guilt in the eyes of some, it further condemns the regimes that they grow up under.



-A

[Doc]

I think that it would be hypocritical to shout that "I would be different". The reality is that most of us probably would not. However, while that is the case, it still does not change reality and that reality is that these people are very very dangerous. Also, again while it somewhat mitigates their guilt in the eyes of some, it further condemns the regimes that they grow up under.
-A
[right][snapback]80465[/snapback][/right]

I dunno.

I was raised in honkytonks and whorehouses as a child. I was taught "everything I needed to know in life" from card sharps, thieves, cut throats, murderers, thugs, hooligans, and any other form of low life you can think of. I was raised in pretty much the worst sort of environment you could think of a child being raised in. Add to the fact that I was allowed to pretty much raise my self with very little adult intervention or direction... Inspite of, or because of, I grew up with a defined set of strong morals and an iron sense of honour. Are we just a product of our environment?

[Ashock]

I dunno.

I was raised in honkytonks and whorehouses as a child. I was taught "everything I needed to know in life" from card sharps, thieves, cut throats, murderers, thugs, hooligans, and any other form of low life you can think of. I was raised in pretty much the worst sort of environment you could think of a child being raised in. Add to the fact that I was allowed to pretty much raise my self with very little adult intervention or direction... Inspite of, or because of, I grew up with a defined set of strong morals and an iron sense of honour. Are we just a product of our environment?
[right][snapback]80466[/snapback][/right]

By no means am I excusing their behavior. However, when you grow up with everything and everyone including newspapers and TV around you saying that the sky is pink, then you will believe it. It is only a very small minority that bucks the trend, and in a highly restrictive society (based on a highly restrictive and inflexible faith) such as this, that minority is almost non-existant. However, that still does not excuse them or their behavior and I do not necessarily disagree with your sentiments. However, no matter how much I hate these people, I would never presume that I would definately be different in their place. Maybe... or maybe not.



-A

[jahcs]

Ashock:

I think that it would be hypocritical to shout that "I would be different". The reality is that most of us probably would not. However, while that is the case, it still does not change reality and that reality is that these people are very very dangerous. Also, again while it somewhat mitigates their guilt in the eyes of some, it further condemns the regimes that they grow up under.

For a view of how folks can handle situations in very different ways: Malcom X and Martin Luther King Jr. "By any means neccesary" vs. "Peace is not merely a distant goal that we seek, but a means by which we arrive at that goal."

Both men were working for a much needed change, just from different angles. I feel both men and their views were neccesary to the civil rights movement. Some folks will only respect the need to change when you give 'em a good smack upside the head. Also, if everyone that wanted change was militant about it I doubt that there would have been a positive outcome. Sort of like the difference between having a bus boycott and firebombing all the busses.

Gekko:

Do you honestly think those stupid kids strapping bombs to themselves in the middle east ever had a chance? Do they deserve to be shot because they've been pumped so full of hate since they were born that they can't see anything else?

They may not deserve to be shot but, if it's a choice between them blowing themselves up in an open-air market and shooting them if the opportunity presents itself, I will pull the trigger myself. (And odds are good that next year I will be in that situation.) I would much rather go after the leaders of the groups that enable this type of behavior and shut them down but their minions need to be taken care of too. And by "taken care of" I don't neccesarily mean liquidating them.