I am curious about something....

[Ashock]

Here's what I'm curious about:

All other issues aside, how can any Western female be pro-Muslim culture/society, just on the strength of something like this? This is pretty typical in that type of society after all.... Anyone who wants to dispute that and say that this is the exception and not the rule, can go do some research on their own.




http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050610/wl_n...an_rape_dc


LAHORE, Pakistan (Reuters) - A Pakistani court on Friday ordered the release next week of 12 men connected to a notorious gang-rape case, including six convicted of the crime, court officials said.

The men, detained in connection with the 2002 rape of Mukhataran Mai, were ordered to be freed by the high court in the central province of Punjab, officials of the court said.

Authorities had petitioned a review board of the court to extend the detention of the 12, which expires next Monday, but the court rejected the plea, the officials said.

It was the latest twist in a case that provoked an outcry in Pakistan and focused international attention on the treatment of women in the country, particularly in rural areas, where sometimes brutal tribal customs hold sway.

The original trial before an anti-terrorism court in 2002 found that Mai was gang-raped on the orders of a traditional village council after her brother -- who was 12 at the time -- was judged to have offended the honor of a powerful clan by befriending a woman from their tribe.

Six men were originally convicted of the crime and sentenced to death, but five were later acquitted on appeal to the Punjab provincial court, which cited a lack of evidence. A sixth man had his death sentence commuted to life imprisonment.

The provincial government subsequently intervened and ordered that the men be detained for three months pending the outcome of an appeal by the victim against the acquittal. Six men who served on the village council were detained at the same time.

"The review board has held that there is no justification for the detention of these people and has ordered their release after depositing surety bonds of 50,000 rupees ($840) from each of them," Malik Saleem, a lawyer for the 12 men, told Reuters.

Punjab Law Minister Raja Basharat declined to comment on the decision.

Mai expressed fears for her life after the provincial high court announced the acquittals in March.

Gang rapes and honor killings are common in feudalistic rural Pakistan. In most cases the perpetrators go free because of incompetent police investigations and flaws in the legal system, which have been highlighted in the current case.

President Pervez Musharraf, who has been trying to project Pakistan as a moderate and progressive Muslim nation, has taken a personal interest in the case, saying it was tarnishing the country's image overseas.






I'm curious to see some of the reasoning. Really I am.



-A

[jahcs]

Here's what I'm curious about:

All other issues aside, how can any Western female be pro-Muslim culture/society, just on the strength of something like this? [right][snapback]80152[/snapback][/right]

Because it's anti-Bush? Because they aren't informed? Because they choose to ignore the dark side of the issue when it suits them?

It has taken the Western World many generations to accept women as people and not property. Many of the Muslim areas of the world are still "backward" in that regard. Perhaps these folks just forgot how we got to this point. Maybe they feel guilty because we have acheived so much in that regard.

I saw a bumper sticker yesterday:

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[Doc]

Those 12 men...

Ugh.

You know , I have two revolvers... And there are 12 men... I need some time alone with them please.

No, I don't want to kill them... <_<

[Ashock]

Because it's anti-Bush?&nbsp; Because they aren't informed?&nbsp; Because they choose to ignore the dark side of the issue when it suits them?

It has taken the Western World many generations to accept women as people and not property.&nbsp; Many of the Muslim areas of the world are still "backward" in that regard.&nbsp; Perhaps these folks just forgot how we got to this point.&nbsp; Maybe they feel guilty because we have acheived so much in that regard.

I saw a bumper sticker yesterday:

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"
[right][snapback]80153[/snapback][/right]

Jahcs, believe me I know why. I just want to hear it from their own mouths, but maybe I'm asking for too much.




-A

[TaMeOlta]

Those 12 men...

Ugh.

You know , I have two revolvers... And there are 12 men... I need some time alone with them please.

No, I don't want to kill them... <_<
[right][snapback]80156[/snapback][/right]

Aaaah ! You were thinking kneecaps and a 5 mile swim back to shore in shark infested waters , just like I was thinking ? :whistling: I like the way you think , Doc !! :D

[Doc]

Aaaah ! You were thinking kneecaps and a 5 mile swim back to shore in shark infested waters , just like I was thinking ?&nbsp; :whistling:&nbsp; I like the way you think , Doc !!&nbsp; :D
[right][snapback]80159[/snapback][/right]

No, not the right knee, or the left knee.

Shoot them in the wee knee.

Shark infested waters sounds fine though.

Carry on.

I am just stating in words what everybody is thinking... So don't get mad at me.

[Ashock]

Those 12 men...

Ugh.

You know , I have two revolvers... And there are 12 men... I need some time alone with them please.

No, I don't want to kill them... <_<
[right][snapback]80156[/snapback][/right]

Tsk, tsk, tsk. No 72 virgins for you!




-A

[Doc]

And if Michael Jackson gets off with house arrest or being sent to a country club, I got something for him too.

I have lotsa lead... More than enough to go around.

No mercy for rapists and pedophiles. None at all. They certainly didn't give their victims any, so no whiny pissy excuses. I am gonna catch heat for saying this, but shoot them and get it over with. Saves money not having to update sex offender registries. A nickle and a dime's worth of lead is a small price to pay. They should be tied to the top of a telephone pole and have their genitals pecked off by crows.

What they do leaves a life time of hurt, pain, and suffering on their victims. It screws up the victim's life. No ammount of prison time can ease their suffering, make them better, or allow them to have a normal healthy relationship ever again. Some scars never heal.

No mercy... Ruin them.

[Doc]

And no, they shouldn't be killed. Not right away.

They should be made to have prolonged suffering, like their victims. Make them beg for death, let them feel dispair, to feel weak and powerless, make them feel burning shame over something they have no control over.

No mercy.

[Rinnhart]

I recently took a class with a certain woman who was a vocal opponent of women's rights.

This thoroughly amused many of us and instigated many circular debates of "If you believe a woman's place is in the home, why are you here?"

[LochnarITB]

You know , I have two revolvers... And there are 12 men... I need some time alone with them please.

No, I don't want to kill them... <_<
[right][snapback]80156[/snapback][/right]

I hope your aim is good because those must be very tiny targets! :angry: Why is it that so much of the human(?) race has such a capacity for cruelty??? Raises inter-galactic thumb, hoping for a ride that won't require rescue by a ship equipped with infinite improbability drive.

[Jester]

"All other issues aside, how can any Western female be pro-Muslim culture/society, just on the strength of something like this?"

Somewhere around a fifth of the world is Muslim. "Muslim culture/society" is only marginally better than saying "Christian culture/society", which would include everything from barely theistic egalitarian pacifists all the way out to polygamous, abusive, patriarchical cults (and much more, of course). Islam is an impossibly large abstraction, and includes both completely acceptable and completely unacceptable variants, along with everything in between. Not every Muslim is as bad as the government of Pakistan, and even if they were, it wouldn't be a necessary consequence of their religion.

While it is clearly ridiculous to believe that the most extreme (or perhaps even the average) Muslim's beliefs are compatible with western women's rights, I don't see why this must translate into a total rejection.

Indeed, one could even envision a progressive, feminist Islamic sect, where women's rights are of primary importance. Certainly that has happened with other highly oppressive religions. Not that I'd endorse even that, since I don't accept any theistic notion. But at least it wouldn't be oppressive.

Jester

[Ashock]

Indeed, one could even envision a progressive, feminist Islamic sect, where women's rights are of primary importance. Certainly that has happened with other highly oppressive religions. Not that I'd endorse even that, since I don't accept any theistic notion. But at least it wouldn't be oppressive.
[right][snapback]80177[/snapback][/right]

I can envision winning the lottery, but that does not mean I will win it. I'm talking about the real world, not some sort of a hypothetical vision of what things *should* be.


-A


ps. Thanks for posting on-topic. No sarcasm intended.

[Occhidiangela]

Jester, your "marginally better" line has merit.

But let's get down to particulars. There is no longer an enforceable Christian version of fatwah, the cleric ordered assassination on heretics, such as Salman Rushdie or Massoud. The only witch hunts allowed now are those that target Caucasian, non-semitic males.

Making comparisons between Christianity and Islam in the year 2005 is disingenuous at best. The divergence started with Mohamed's dictations that ended up as Al Quran, and have only gottern more severe, all mealy mouthed happy talk considered.

True, Islam has its separate trees, as do Christianity and Judism. It is Monotheistic. Abraham is important. And that is about all there is for useful comparison, today, in the modern world. 1400 years worth of divergence theologically, culturally, politically, and a few lw's I probably left out are significant. Heck, the US Constitution, a piece of generally secular doctrine, is only 220 years old. It made an international cultural change felt.

Which brings us to the farce that is "international law" and "international standards." International double standards are the rule, not the norm. Sometimes they favor "the West," sometimes the WOG, in how the double standards play out.

The explicit second class status of women, and for that matter a non Muslim in a Muslim society, is a matter of habit, doctrine and centuries of precedent. What is remarkable is the progress that modernists, such as Ataturk or some of the Baathist, made in the face of such embedded norms.

The blinders Ashock finds so hypocritical are worn for varied motivations, but they are not accidental. I have a few pairs myself, that I don now and againl. :blink:

Occhi

[Minionman]

I can envision winning the lottery, but that does not mean I will win it. I'm talking about the real world, not some sort of a hypothetical vision of what things *should* be.
-A
ps. Thanks for posting on-topic. No sarcasm intended.
[right][snapback]80182[/snapback][/right]

It makes a difference when talking about "muslim" vs. "Pakistani", "Indian", "African", "middle Eastern", etc. culture. Apparently India and china have a lot of similar things happening, in non muslim areas. Whatever people say about "islam", which is a religion, and as such people can and will use it for all sorts of reasons, Very few of them would actually want to live in Pakistan or China or some other area with these problems for similar areas.

[gekko]

*dusts off devil's advocate hat*

I can be a muslim while not supporting these 12 men the same way I can be a christian while desiring that the church recognize and support gay marriage, or women priests, or married priests, or any number of other examples.

Second of all, it's one thing to look at third world, developing countries and judge them for their cultures and beliefs -- after all, we in North America let women out of the kitchen decades ago, right? And we let women and black people vote ages ago, so why can't the rest of the world get their act together?

I'm not suggesting for a second that what those men did was ok. But please remember that in a few decades, people will be making comments about what we consider normal and civil today, and saying "my god, how could they have done that?"

Thirdly: the people who do this sort of thing are not just cruel; the majority of them are sick, sick individuals, who really need help. It's one thing to discuss shooting out their kneecaps (or other body parts) and stringing them up for the crows; it would be a nice change to see a discussion suggesting improvements to education and mental health systems that could catch and help these people, and hopefully prevent the horrible crimes in the first place.

gekko

[Guest]

yawn "the majority of them are sick,"

Everything bad in the world can be blamed on people being sick.

I dont really care whether its "sickness" or "cruelity" in name. In practice this #$%& bad and if punishment stops it then Im all for calling it cruelity.

[gekko]

yawn "the majority of them are sick,"

Everything bad in the world can be blamed on people being sick.

I dont really care whether its "sickness" or "cruelity" in name. In practice this #$%& bad and if punishment stops it&nbsp; then Im all for calling it cruelity.
[right][snapback]80206[/snapback][/right]

I don't entirely disagree with you. However, we can continue to shoot them as we find them, but that doesn't help the victims, does it? And we've been "punishing them" for years, and it hasn't stopped it.

People grow up in poverty and in ignorance, learning from parents too stupid and lazy to raise a fish, let alone a child. They get a poor education (if they get one at all) and they grow up seeing wealth and happiness everywhere around them. And they grow up not knowing why it's wrong to hate a person because of the colour of their skin, or not understanding that women should be treated with respect and not gang-raped. And none of this excuses their behavior, but so long as these conditions exist, and so long as people grow up without receiving the education they need to tell the difference between their parents racial slurs and reality, so we will hear stories of rapes on university campuses and the like.

I'm not saying don't punish these people when they commit such a crime - I'm a big believer in personal responsability. However, if we want to make a positive change and stop the sorts of horrific crimes like the one that prompted this thread, we need to do more than just shoot those responsible.

gekko

[DeeBye]

However, if we want to make a positive change and stop the sorts of horrific crimes like the one that prompted this thread, we need to do more than just shoot those responsable.
[right][snapback]80208[/snapback][/right]

I agree with you as long as we can shoot the sickos first. Prevention is grand, but in a case like this punishment eases my mind.

[Rinnhart]

yawn "the majority of them are sick,"

Everything bad in the world can be blamed on people being sick.

I dont really care whether its "sickness" or "cruelity" in name. In practice this #$%& bad and if punishment stops it&nbsp; then Im all for calling it cruelity.
[right][snapback]80206[/snapback][/right]

I'm for whichever party does the mouth-shooting.