Dark Clouds Gather

[NotSoDarklord]

Hang on one second



YOU DON"T MISS ME? WTFBBQ. PS. PM me your char info on that other server so I can log on and flood you with tells when I'm bored.

[Kevin]

I want to clarify my stance from when I said this.  I don't mean to imply that finding other ways to have fun in this game are wrong or inferior.  You all made certain choices regarding the ways you wanted to have fun in this game; I made certain other choices.  Neither are better or worse, just different.  Mine don't fit yours, that's all, which was another factor in my departure.  I don't pay the money to play my game according to someone else's play preferences - and neither do you.  So I won't be around to bug people to go on raids any more, which should work out better for everyone.
[right][snapback]84230[/snapback][/right]

I responded already (and there were a lot of responses in the thread while I was typing mine up) and I think I covered that I didn't take it that way. If it didn't come across that way I'm sorry. You are right. My play style doesn't fit yours, it doesn't fit other Lurkers either. There are times when they overlap and there are times when we both get enjoyment, though not as much, through playing the game more like the other one does. But yeah, I understood that, I heop everyone else did. My other huge long overly wordy post probably already covered that.



While I'm hear I want to clarify that when I say, in other posts, that I'm part of the problem, it also doesn't mean that the problem is because someone else or myself is wrong. The problem is that we are a "herd of cats" we get along we like each other, but most of us want to do what we want to do. We've made that work with each other pretty well so far though.

[Hillary]

Hang on one second
YOU DON"T MISS ME?  WTFBBQ.  PS.  PM me your char info on that other server so I can log on and flood you with tells when I'm bored.
[right][snapback]84247[/snapback][/right]

Of course I do. You're my dwarfy fuzzycakes!

Or something.

[Tal]

Can you really blame them darian?  I've been on vent during MC/Onyxia lurker runs, and what do you know what I hear more than anything?  Chaos and frustration.  Endgame content is supposed to be challenging, but it's not supposed to make you upset... you are still supposed to enjoy this GAME.  I've heard some of the horror stories as well.  Multiple raids wiped by a single person who's just a tad slow to stop attacking onyxia at the beginning of stage 3? 

I wonder how many other lurker/CA people secretly voice dissatisfaction with the state of how things were going... because while there is progression... that progression just isn't coming easy/quickly by any means.  I've HEARD  people yelled at, and at the same time I've seen/heard of mistakes of a colossal nature.  Mistakes that are simply a matter of not paying attention.  To raid you need a high percentage of people paying attention to balance out those that aren't.  The top end guilds have everyone focused when they try something new (or at least that's my opinion).

There is a difference in the players in these guilds mind you.  That alone is a reason that makes them so appealing.  I never really see aggro taken on onyxia by an app to IA.  I've never really seen anyone fail to get the stage 3 progression right and stop attacking.  Never seen people fail to run when they have the geddon bomb.  A new hunter fail to tranq mag...etc.  (these examples were just to show that even the new people... the ones that don't know the encounters other than vaguely via CQ website... still aren't making some of the mistakes I hear happening again and again) These mistakes are to some extent a measure of that person's ability to play their class.  Now I understand that mistakes happen... but in the fights where a single inattentive person can wipe the raid or at least cripple it... things can get real frustrating real fast.

And here is where I attempt to back off a bit so I don't get flamed to all hell.  I love the lurkers.  I think it's a great social guild/atmosphere.  Let me say though that some people just want more?  If I was still in lurkers would you expect someone who can raid 7 days a week to actually settle for 2 if I'm lucky?  2 people WILL NOT kill the lurkers.  3 people wont.  It's a serious blow especially given the players, but just how many people is lurkers short of to even try to do raiding with a casual atmosphere.  Militis Justica does it... and by my last count there were over 130 active 60's (with some hardcore players and some casual they can field a raid 3-4 times a week)
[right][snapback]84240[/snapback][/right]

What a backhanded compliment.

Not certain how else I can reply but...wow.

[Lissa]

No, I knew exactly what reaction I was going to get.  Certainly your move - and a "sideways" one at that - prepared me for what I was going to get.  But I'm explaining things because I want people to understand why I left.  I want them to know what's wrong so they can go ahead and fix it, or not fix it as they choose. 

And you're right - it is about pipe dreams and illusions.  I'd rather not have them operate under those illusions any more.  Not just because it's better for me if they don't, because it is, but because it's better for them.
[right][snapback]84222[/snapback][/right]

How can you fix it if you're not willing to try to fix it? Seriously Skan, we are so close to taking down Onyxia it's isn't funny. Our first run into MC, one bad agro pull and we weren't able to take Lucifron, but I guarentee you that we will this next time. How many times did it take IA to take Onyxia? If we stick the transition from phase 2 to 3, Onyxia is toast, very likely this Thursday. Tonight, we'll very likely take Luci and maybe head to Mag. Also, can IA say that they've taken Onyxia with 30 to 35 people in BLUES and GREENS with a few purples spread around? Think about that Skan, you said you want a challenge and be challenged. How much more of a challenge can you get with under raid people in not even Epic gear?

[Quark]

The problem is that the only solution is to get more people.  Lurkers don't just appear out of nowhere and so we've had to go looking for other guilds.  As I've said this then doesn't feel like it is "Lurkers" as much any more and I don't feel as much of a connection...

- mjdoom
[right][snapback]84244[/snapback][/right]

And yet you feel a connection to +30 people you don't know, admitting you know about 4 IA people. This may be a problem for you, but I really don't see how switching to IA helps it. Does having the same guild tag make running a raid together that much better?

[Treesh]

How can you fix it if you're not willing to try to fix it?  Seriously Skan, we are so close to taking down Onyxia it's isn't funny.  Our first run into MC, one bad agro pull and we weren't able to take Lucifron, but I guarentee you that we will this next time.  How many times did it take IA to take Onyxia?  If we stick the transition from phase 2 to 3, Onyxia is toast, very likely this Thursday.  Tonight, we'll very likely take Luci and maybe head to Mag.  Also, can IA say that they've taken Onyxia with 30 to 35 people in BLUES and GREENS with a few purples spread around?  Think about that Skan, you said you want a challenge and be challenged.  How much more of a challenge can you get with under raid people in not even Epic gear?
[right][snapback]84253[/snapback][/right]

But part of the challenge (and the fun) is also figuring out the tactics involved. BWL is new strategies and tactics for people. I would think that being one of the first to figure out how to take down these critters is a lot more satisfying than just following a blueprint that so many others have followed. I wouldn't get nearly as frustrated or bored as quickly with Onyxia if it wasn't "this is how it goes down, now sit there and follow the directions." I really can't blame Skan or anyone else for wanting to experience that thrill of discovery and victory and I hope they do find it and are happy, even if I have butted heads with Skan (unnecessarily) because I'm a drama queen. ;)

[Skandranon]

I had zero idea that you were actually dissatisfied with the progress.  I had zero idea that you thought things weren't going to work -- helped along, I might add, by statements from both you and Skan that you thought we could take out Onyxia with 25 people.
[right][snapback]84239[/snapback][/right]

I still believe you can. I still believe that you will make it to MC and to Onyxia and so on and so forth. That wasn't why I moved on; my reasons made clear above.

Of course, the other thing was that I really don't want to play with KotC and Determined and House Harpell and whoever else you were recruiting. Not just that I don't want to - I want NOT to have to play with them. One: I don't know them. Two: I am really, really turned off by incompetence. And these little guilds are one step away from pickups fresh out of Ironforge. Granted, then, that I'll have to play with people I don't know, I'll pick playing with the best over playing with random pickups any day.

[Skandranon]

If you think it's bad that you don't have fun, wait till IA keeps pushing you to do things that you really dread. This is the problem with raiding guilds and raiding guilds will only cause one of two things for someone that joins them, either they burnout and leave the guild because of the strictness or they burnout and leave the game.

Perhaps. But I farmed 300 heavy leather yesterday and had a great time. People make it fun; people can make it unfun. What they're doing is secondary. And I've burned out already on dealing with Lurkers.

That is the problem that you're running into, you have played Rylea to exclusion for the most part.  [right][snapback]84242[/snapback][/right]

This is so absolutely far from the problem I'm running into that I question whether you've read anything I've written so far. I just can't raid with the people any more. I am not tired of the game. If I do, so what? If I didn't go to IA at this point I'd quit the game, because the emotional wreckage that raiding with Lurkers inflicts on me is too much to bear.

[Quark]

I would just like to get this part out in the open:

Do I understand the desire to switch to IA or another raiding guild? Yes, I've felt it myself. I felt it before I was a Lurker. I still feel it now. It would be dishonest to say I wouldn't think of going somewhere else, because I have.

I play more than most Lurkers do. I play on my main even more compared to others. Mondays and Thursdays can't come quick enough for me, sometimes. It's part of the reason I've been trying to get in AV constantly now - it's something new and fun to do in between.

So why did I never take the shot? Because I'm afraid of two things, mainly:
1) Being in a place I don't want to be, because it's scheduled.
2) Conflicting schedules. I play a lot. Do I play at the right times? I see many groups are started before I log in. Others start late enough that, though I could play, I'd probably regret it at work the next day. Saturday/Sunday? Forget it, I'm stuck at work.

And if I finally get a real job, my schedule changes right away. Lurkers could handle that, it's not required to be somewhere. Could a pure raiding guild take that without kicking me out?

So there, now you know I've had and have my doubts and thoughts. I agree with many of the reasons you three have left, and disagree with a few. I just am not happy with the way this was handled.

Notice to the Lurkers: if I ever plan on leaving, I will not beat around the bush. If it is a trial run for me, then that's what it is.

[Hillary]

I've been thinking about this ALL day - even though I'm not in the guild anymore - and I wanted to add in 2 cents. Flame me if you'd like, but I think I have a decent point to make.

I got burnt out on Grizelle. The main reason she was retired? I got absolutely TOASTY healing UBRS. I understood that it was an ends to a means, that we needed blood. But I also knew that some weeks, if I didn't go - or Darian didn't go - it would be X number of weeks MORE until we saw Onyxia. That there were X number of people who would lack blood until our next attempt.

So I tried to convince myself that it was worth it. That every week, doing the same f'ing thing 4 times in a row would pay off.

Then, after MONTHS of this, we get to Onyxia. Yay, right? No. Actually, no. I didn't care anymore. I was so burnt on the grind of it that it wasn't as exciting as it should have been. Did I expect to drop the dragon? No. But I expected to feel some semblence of satisfaction for my time and effort, and it wasn't there. It was an absolutely empty experience. That was when I knew something was wrong.

Thus, the character was retired less than a week later.

So what does this have to do with the price of beans . . .

Let's look at the three characters you are losing. Arethor, who was THE token warlock for these UBRS runs more times than I care to admit. Flyndar, who was capped before I even started playing - AND who spent so much down time that he managed to cap a warrior. Skan, who was around from the beginning, capped a Paladin, AND taught me almost every farking thing I know about instances (and for that, Skan, I thank you. I'm now doing your role over on Feathermoon for a lot of folks and it feels good). People who've been there, done that, and continued to PAY to be bored. All out of loyalty. You can say they stayed for other reasons, but you're wrong - (as a side note, anyone who says these three used the Lurkers can bite me. I will defend any one of them to a name. They're some of the most giving people I know. Times, resources, YOU NAME IT).

At any rate, back to my point.

Think about how LONG it took them to get to that dragon with Lurkers. Think about the amount of times - exponentially - they went and killed the General. Put it in perspective. You asked them to wait for the guild. You asked them FOUR MONTHS AGO to wait for the guild. And they did. Now that you've got the bone structure of a raiding group, you're asking them to wait . . . again. Because you don't have attendance, you're still ten short, etc.

Ya know? The more I think about this? I'd stop waiting too. In fact, I did stop waiting, but I was so crispy that I couldn't even gather the energy to seek out an IA and try to rediscover the joy I used to feel as Grizelle.

My guess is that these three got to Onyxia, and they felt the same way I did. Hollow victory. So much work and time invested over so little giddiness. Frustrations, set backs, the inability to man the raids, even if - hypothetically - you have the numbers.

Consider, too, kids - and I hate to sound like a witch - Onyxia is CHEESE. She's the easy one, yet there are still migraines over trying to drop her. Imagine a Domo. Or worse.

So before you all get your hate on, put yourselves in their shoes. I know Darian or Tal or Vilatra or any of the rest of your 60's would like to say 'Hey, I spent a lot of time too' - and you know? You did. But I don't think it's fair for any one person to stand up and ask them to wait any longer. It's putting YOUR gaming principles and ethics on other people. I remember once that Treesh said she didn't like people telling her how to play her game. The more I think about it? I think it relates here, too. Yes, the loss of three key figures hurts you. Yes it sets you back, but if you're that keen on going still? Go. Recruit. Get active. Merge guilds, do something. They're three, not 33. Perspective.

Sigh.

To make a very long post very very short: You play your game your way, and give others the same freedom. Get angry, you're entitled, but don't wave an indignant flag in their faces.

They waited a long time for this.

So to the three of you, I hope you find your bliss. Find what it's like to enjoy that 60 again. I lost that magic with Grizelle, though I've found it with Yva and it's a nice feeling. I hope to hell you end up happy, even through these frustrations. I hope everyone finds what they're looking for in the end.

H

[Skandranon]

If we stick the transition from phase 2 to 3, Onyxia is toast, very likely this Thursday.  Tonight, we'll very likely take Luci and maybe head to Mag.  Also, can IA say that they've taken Onyxia with 30 to 35 people in BLUES and GREENS with a few purples spread around?  Think about that Skan, you said you want a challenge and be challenged.  How much more of a challenge can you get with under raid people in not even Epic gear?
[right][snapback]84253[/snapback][/right]

Good, good! I wish you all the luck in the world. But content is a strictly secondary reason for leaving, at least for me. Firstly, because dealing with the Lurkers has gotten very hard for me. And secondly, because crossing my fingers and hoping that someone doesn't screw up what is really a very basic strategy isn't a "challenge".

[Kevin]

And yet you feel a connection to +30 people you don't know, admitting you know about 4 IA people.  This may be a problem for you, but I really don't see how switching to IA helps it.  Does having the same guild tag make running a raid together that much better?
[right][snapback]84254[/snapback][/right]

Edit: Much of this is irrelevant becuase it was addressed by the people that I was attempting to speak for while I was writing it up, including Quark. I leave it here only for completeness.

Having the same guild tag does help to get that raid together though. I know this applies more to low end raids than what you are getting at. I always look at that as part of the reason for Hillarys move. Yes, we can get people from CA to join us on a run with the use of other chat channels but we still mostly rely on someone from that guild asking in their guild chat to do it or on outside scheduling.

Having the same guild tag also eliminates any special treatment feelings others in the guild might have. That seems to be a big part of what made Mongo drop the Lurker tag on Tich.

Anyway, it isn't all about the connection to other people. It is about knowing that we are failing and only get one or 2 chances a week at it. If IA fails you most likely get 3 or 4 chances at it that week. But if you aren't wearing that banner you might still only get the one chance.

I do see your point though Quark, because you did raid with Lurkers a lot under another banner, and you are raiding with CA/KotC/GoE without their banner as well. But really, all those guilds are casual guilds when compared to IA and others. That is where the real rift is. How long does a more hard core player wait for the casual people who are in fact getting there. For that matter how much effort does the casual player put into it to help keep the hard core players happy as well.

I do think we can make this work and make making it work worth the effort to do so. I think more people are upset about how the decisions were handled than the decision itself. I think that is what Quark is more mad about. I know that is why I was more harsh in my response to Skan and mjdoom than I was to Arethor because I had talked with Arethor about it before and he discussed if it could be made to work and keep everyone happy.

Not everyone is comforatable discussing this stuff in public, or even individually with 40 people. Though I do think that the guild leaders should have been talked to first at the very least since one of the few things they really are expected to do is help handle stuff like this. I know I don't expect them to organize and "bless" everything, but I do expect them to be people who can help handle stuff like this and help voice concerns publicly even if the people with the concerns want to remain private.

[Bolty]

Let me ask you this as well, you never played in Beta so you have about 8 months of time since the game has been out.  Look at myself, Tal, Roane, Ruvanul, Bolty, Mongo, Dragoon, and others that were in the closed test.  We've been playing this game from a year plus, yet we still find things and still haven't seen the luster lost.  The key to playing is moderation.  That is the problem that you're running into, you have played Rylea to exclusion for the most part.  How often have you taken Katrin out since you hit 60 with her?  How often do you play your Rogue or your Warrior?  Look at their /played sometime, it might just be a complete eye openner.  While it's interesting to build a character up, there does come a point that playing that one character to exclusion or following only the goals of that one character to the exclusion of others leads to the not-funness that you're talking about.  How many different characters did you have in Diablo and Diablo 2?  Did you play one character to the exclusion of all others?  Did you eventually get burned out by playing that one character over and over again?

You're (and Flyn and Arethor) at the crossroads of burnout.  One path will lead to further burnout, the other will give you a fresh perspective.  The choice is yours.[right][snapback]84242[/snapback][/right]

Please take heed to this.

Lissa speaks truth. Deny it all you want now, but come back in 3, 4 months and see for yourself.

Remember the critical thing about MMORPGs: they are about the PEOPLE just as much (if not more) than the game artifice thrown at you by the developers. There are those who realize this. There are those who don't.

The *people* will be around long after the game has gone old and stale. Which means it goes beyond just WoW. Consider that. Consider what people here will think of you in the future.

There are numerous analogies to Real Life that can be made - the Rat Race and all being an obvious one. People can get so caught up in it and in keeping up with those pesky Joneses, that they lose touch with what is actually important. In the end, they're burnt up, alone, and unhappy, never understanding what was wrong.

The way the game sets it up, it leads to the feeling of "OMGWTF these other players have done things I haven't and have cool lewtz, I need them" if you lack the critical mass of raiding. This puts pressure on people to do it, simply because it's there. There's nothing wrong with that - it's the challenge that drives us in life just as much as in WoW, to better ourselves as well as our characters.

So you abandon everything you know and the people who were there with you through it all in order to have a shot at the golden prize. Then you get it, with much less challenge due to being in a group that's done it all before. Now what?

You do it again, and again. And again. Then you do it another 40 times until Blizzard releases some new content. Then you blow through the new content in the first or second week, followed by another 100 re-runs.

Then you burn out.

Then you realize that you can't go back. You burned too many bridges, betrayed too many trusts. It's over. Stuck between a rock (not getting to see uber content right away unless you play multiple times a week doing things you've done 100 times over again) and a hard place (starting all over somewhere else).

What is the alternative?

You stay with those who are your buddies, who've been through it all with you. And someday, eventually, you get that big win. Onyxia falls. MC is run. BWL is finally accessed. The guild grows stronger and stronger, and it's due to YOUR efforts. As new members rise to join in, you know that YOU paved the way for them. The pride of escorting others through their first raid victories belongs to you and those who worked so hard with you toward that satisfying goal.

The indescribable joy of that first Onyxia victory with a rag-tag bunch of friends who have tried over and over with third-rate gear will never be experienced by you now. The true challenge is gone, instead replaced by machine-like precision with super-geared players that are mostly strangers to you. Exciting and thrilling at first, the fun wears off relatively quickly and you're left with nothing and nowhere to turn.

The Lurkers are so very close now, and this is the key. If we were a 10-player guild with absolutely no shot of ever getting anywhere, that would be one thing. I keep expecting any time now to hear of a victory over Onyxia, and to slap everyone involved on the back because I've watched what they've been going through.

Since inevitably someone will mention Boltress and try to use that character against me: she is retired for exactly the attitudes expressed by certain guild members at the time of her capping. While those attitudes are likely no longer present due to player migration, she will likely remain retired as her replacement is rising through the ranks. Believe me that I *really* want to be participating in these raids for the reasons I've mentioned in the above paragraphs, although it cannot be with her. Some of you here know more, although I have not been that forthcoming.

Have fun in your new guild.

-Bolty

[Tal]

Not everyone is comforatable discussing this stuff in public, or even individually with 40 people.  Though I do think that the guild leaders should have been talked to first at the very least since one of the few things they really are expected to do is help handle stuff like this.  I know I don't expect them to organize and "bless" everything, but I do expect them to be people who can help handle stuff like this and help voice concerns publicly even if the people with the concerns want to remain private.
[right][snapback]84267[/snapback][/right]

I cannot express the feelings I felt when the news was delivered to me via a whisper from someone else that they read it on the boards the one day I fire up WoW before the Firefox browser. I very rarely advertise my AIM but for those of you who remain and need to discuss things with me its TamDaneth. It may be best to get me during the day but I am frequently away from my desk so give me time to get back to you. :)

[Skandranon]

I think it diminishes the efforts and goals of those who remain to label tham as "pipe dreams".
[right][snapback]84232[/snapback][/right]

The pipe dream I am referring to is the idea that the Lurker guild is a "fun" and "friendly" place which is enjoyable to play in, and the illusion that everyone likes each other a lot and is generally very happy. The level of stress I got from the people was just something I was unwilling to deal with any longer.

[Skandranon]

The fact that you three have sacrificed much for the guild also made it harder for me to understand how you could leave it behind at all as well. 

God, GG. You have no idea how much I didn't want to go. I've been a big part of building the guild over the last four months and I don't regret doing any of it. And if it was just about taking a long time to kill Onyxia, I'd have stayed.

But the way things are now, we'd kill Onyxia and I'd be crying while everyone else was cheering. I just can't do it any more.

Dude you're a good guy you don't deserve some of the #$%& I've thrown your way, have fun with the game and Rylea.  Just have fun.
[right][snapback]84243[/snapback][/right]

Thanks, GG. I will.

[Treesh]

Remember the critical thing about MMORPGs: they are about the PEOPLE just as much (if not more) than the game artifice thrown at you by the developers.  There are those who realize this.  There are those who don't.

The *people* will be around long after the game has gone old and stale.  Which means it goes beyond just WoW.  Consider that.  Consider what people here will think of you in the future.
[right][snapback]84268[/snapback][/right]

I think skan understands this quite well. In his posts saying why he's leaving the lurkers, he mentions the people most. Just one or two people can really ruin things quickly. I had to take out most of my characters from the lurkers before because it just hurt too much to deal with guild chat day in and day out. I really do understand where Skan is coming from (even though I'm one of the people who is part of the problem) and I honestly don't think he's burning any bridges here. Yeah, people are a little hurt right now, but this isn't something that too many people are going to hold a grudge forever over. It's just immensely draining having to watch everything you say so you don't upset others and that's what Skan has been forced to do lately. It's not fun. it's not enjoyable. It makes you want to hide on another server or an unguilded character or another faction.

[Kevin]

BWL is still brand new so it is a chance for me to switch before the content gets trivialized.  I spent about an hour after we finished wiping to Razorgore the other night discussing possible strategies with people and I enjoyed it very much.  Some people might see this time as us approaching a raiding mass; I've seen it as a confirmation of my fears that the people in Lurkers just aren't raid oriented.  Whether you want to face that truth or not (I tried to deny it for a long time myself) it is there for all to see.
[right][snapback]84237[/snapback][/right]

How can I hold a grudge against you for this. What have I been doing with my holding off to run DM West or LBRS or getting mad at being "hand held"? I want to get a chance to do this as well, but I level slower so I don't get to do it with you now. That sucks, but I can't hold a grudge for you wanting to do it.

I can't find the quote from someone (I think it was Skan) saying he wants to see it before it is nerfed to hell. I'm regretting some of my lack of effort to get to some of this content on my own terms as well now so that I could figure out the hard stuff on my own too. I don't know if I ever saw the original scholo, but I got to see some of the nerfs that were put in there in the last patch last night. I'm disappointed. Much of the challenge is removed. In some cases some of the stuff that was removed wasn't a challenge though, it was simply a time drain or another group just like the last 5 groups you just did. The only challenge is not messing up and letting a runner get away or something. Those changes are fine but some of the others disappoint me.

Lurkers does foster my play style people have worked with me and acted like it was a first run of a place and I had a blast with it even when we wiped and I thank you again. But yeah people only have so much time. So how can you be doing that for me and running a blood raid or be in Molten Core or BWL at the same time for the people who leveled faster, or trying out a new group composition that you've never done in Maraudon to get that new experience or play with people you haven't yet.

So yeah, I've said some of this before already. But I can see why people are mad, I can see why people want to leave. I'm not sure we can be everything for everyone and the effort to do so may not be worth it. I would like to see people who are feeling frustrated about something say a bit more about it. The "drama" threads sure seem to get a lot of posts, and I know they have helped me at times get more enjoyment out of the game. The interaction of people is as much a part of an MMO strategy discussion as is the merits of shield slam vs heroic strike, or how this paladin build might work out in PvE 5 man situations.

[mjdoom]

Notice to the Lurkers: if I ever plan on leaving, I will not beat around the bush.  If it is a trial run for me, then that's what it is.
[right][snapback]84264[/snapback][/right]

I think this might not be understood; I still have not begun a trial period with IA. I posted my application to their boards after posting this on the Lounge. Yes, I had expressed interest in joining them to some of their members but I was still primarily devoted to Lurkers. Lest we forget that I was running Scholo on Wed. and MC on Thurs...

One other random comment:

The people are both the hardest and the easiest thing to leave. Hard because it is a good group of people; easy because trying to deal with the many different perspectives, opinions, and interactions within Lurkers could be a huge chore. It got to the point where I wanted to run with groups but the effort involved in putting them together would dissuade me even before I started some times. Maybe you will look at it as the easy way out but I would rather be more of a follower at this point than trying to lead (I've never really been a leader anyway). The only way I could do this in Lurkers was on Mon/Thurs nights and Thursdays are generally bad for me anyway. The effort involved just to have fun on those other 5 nights was a major drag.

- mjdoom