Paladins...is it as bad as they say?

[Treesh]

I hurts more now. ;)
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Yeah, Eth knows that. You killed her twice in Sunken Temple when you were monstered and in just one or two hits each time. Aleri knows it too from that monkey who mind controlled Shal and had her eat Aleri. ;)

[MongoJerry]

Mortal strike warriors, frost mages and stunlock rogues don't seem to have a lot of trouble with Shar. ;)

Sorry that I don't know enough to give you pointers, but I know you shouldn't be having trouble with them, either -- especially the rogues.

[Artega]

Pallies never give me much trouble.

If you're Arms specced, they're essentially a nonthreat. Save up 70 Rage: MS, WW, Execute. They won't have time to bubble.

You can fear them to get a free bandage off, or snare them and run off to get a few seconds of bandaging. You can disarm them to neuter their damage output, and can Pummel/Shield Bash their heals.

[Rinnhart]

Sorry that I don't know enough to give you pointers, but I know you shouldn't be having trouble with them, either -- especially the rogues.
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What gets me, what makes me laugh, what really makes me sit here and laugh so hard I cry, is that you really seem to believe everything you post.

Do you actually read this garbage?

Fantastic troll fodder, there, Jerry.

[Tal]

Sorry that I don't know enough to give you pointers, but I know you shouldn't be having trouble with them, either -- especially the rogues.
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I'll let Artega 'splain it. :)

Pallies never give me much trouble.

If you're Arms specced, they're essentially a nonthreat.  Save up 70 Rage: MS, WW, Execute.  They won't have time to bubble.

You can fear them to get a free bandage off, or snare them and run off to get a few seconds of bandaging.  You can disarm them to neuter their damage output, and can Pummel/Shield Bash their heals.
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Thanks Artega. :)

[Brista]

It sounds like you're a rogue going up against a shaman.  Yeah, rogues are on the wrong end of a rock-paper-scissors battle with a shaman.  Not every opponent a rogue goes up against should be a 2-shot clothie.  Shamans are very powerful PvP opponents, I agree, and a well-played shaman is *extremely* powerful.  But unlike paladins, shamans can actually be killed.  With paladins, groups of 5+ players will look at a paladin and go, "*Groan!*  It's just not worth it!"  In a one-on-one battle, a paladin can beat all classes except priests (due to mana burn) as it is.  The fights just take forever.  Give paladins a significant dps boost and again, there would be no reason to play anything else.
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It's largely attention span

It's very easy for most classes even one-on-one to damage a paladin to the point where s/he will bubble. Seeing a paladin bubble means they're virtually defenseless for 5 minutes unless you're melee in which case you need to make them burn BoP too.

Lay On Hands is over-rated. If there's a group of pvpers killing a paladin who has 10% life and the other protective skills on cooldown, healing to 100% only delays the inevitable for about 3 seconds

The reason players don't find pallies easy to kill in group pvp is that they don't victimise them enough. If more players had the sense to consider the bubble a red flag rather than a reason to go find someone else to kill, paladins whould be a much milder threat

[JustAGuy]

I'll quote Bolty, because he summed it up pretty well.

Group play with a Paladin gets a bit better, since they have more to keep track of - but ye gods, solo play on a Pally is just fall-asleep-inducing click-a-button-and-wait gameplay.

The best satisfaction with Paladins is soloing elites and laughing at them, because Paladins are so invincible.  Sure, it may take 2 minutes to kill the mob, but they end the fight with full health...
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That's a pretty accurate remark. Group play is a bit better than solo play, and solo play boils down to "Click... Wait... Click... Wait... Hey, seal of command triggered, that was nice... Wait..."

Party play is better; the fun comes from how far you are willing to go to keep your party-mates alive. Blessing of Protection on mages, blessing of kings/might/wisdom/salvation etc for whomever needs it, and heals and cleansing for those who need it. Heals and cleansing are not just for when a priest isn't around, either. My heals are low aggro, so I can toss a huge heal (with Divine Favor, it critically heals) at the warrior, saving the primary healer the aggro and mana. And, I fear not a polymorph (I use my insignia to get out of it, then cleanse all others).

My Paladin is 59 at the moment, and if these server problems would finally end I'd be able to cap him. He was 58, and I did a quest in Winterspring that called for me to kill an elite boss. Of course, he had friends. He was a 59 elite furbolg with a 57 shaman and 57 warrior type guarding him. I was able to solo them all, with not much of a problem. I used every skill in the repitoire to do it, but it was doable and I was never in any real danger of dying. I had a hearty laugh standing over their corpse pile.

Still, being practically invulnerable is balanced by horrible DPS. I've mentioned in another thread that a Battlegrounds Paladin is basically this: heal/cleanse bot, one stun gunner. That's pretty much it. Being practically invulnerable means you don't die a lot, but it's pretty much luck if you get can kill with any quickness. Seal of Command + Crit = I'm doing about 1000 damage in one swing, but that's VERY rare. Against level 60 players, crit'ing isn't frequent, despite my talents. Seal of Command doesn't trigger very often either, and I'm using the Ice Barbed Spear (the Alterac Valley reward spear for killing Korak) so it's a nice slow weapon.

Tal said it right; when I get in a fight, I just hope the random number generator likes me.

If you're looking for DPS, this is not your class. A very weak AoE, and no direct damage skills, i.e. click this button to inflict x amount of damage. Everything is, "Click for a roll... Hit? Miss?". In PvP, this is awful. In PvE, it's tolerable, since the A.I. is very predictable. It just takes a while. The redeeming thing is party play. Auras, buffs, seals and survivability (and ability to resurrect) make him fun for party play. Just don't let anyone convince you that you can be the primary tank.

[Chesspiece_face]

First and foremost let me say that my paladin is my favorite character i have. Where other characters have a large chance to frustrate me i find the paladin very relaxing. The class does, however, have some serious faults. Mostly issues that revolve around the fact that, in practice, the class does not play how it does in theory. Or more specifically how blizzard both describes and pidgeon-holes it by items. On to the problems...

1. Talant Trees - Where other characters talant trees have a good balance of power/sacrifice as well as synergistic qualities the paladin skill trees have no real "hard" character choices to make about how you want to play the class. Supposedly if you spec in holy you should be a good healer, protection a tank, and retribution a better damage dealer. This is far from the truth however as after the first 14 talant points in holy there is no bonus to healing ability. The lack of any agro control makes the paladin unable to tank to any serious degree. And there are many skills that just dont make sense regarding their placement. The paladin suffers from a serious case of "I want to be a protection spec but 70% of the skills i have to take to learn 1 or 2 specific abilities are WORTHLESS!" There isn't a single paladin that ever specced 31 points into protection that didn't have an involuntary vomit reflex at putting points into Imp Seal of Justice.

2. Blessings - Blessings aren't in themselves bad. they are great. BUT, they are designed to be cycled in combat to fit the situation. Thus the short timer and lower cast cost. In reality they are just a hassle. There are veritably no instances where you would need to put a different blessing on anyone except maybe a Blessing of Freedom or Blessing of Protection once in a blue moon. What really happens is that every person in your group gets the same blessing refreshed every 5 minutes. If there was any real need to swap blessings around than the low cost and timer would work well. In reality it is just a pain in the ass and in any sizable raid all you do is refresh blessings and occasionally purge/heal.

3. Back-Up Healer - Like other people have mentioned the paladin is essentially a back up healer/cleanser. This is hard for people that play the character to grasp because it's not how the character is advertised out of the game, or in for that matter. paladin players go through 90% of their career thinking that they can tank/damage like a warrior based on the fact that almost all the equipment they can get essentially tells them that is how they should play. Almost every mail item you can get up to the point you can use plate is heavy on Stam/Strength/or Agility. And when you hit plate the amount of plate you can generally find with Eagle or other Int bonuses is slim. It's not till you get nearly capped and start getting your class sets that you realise "crap, all this gear is set to be for a back up healer!"

4. Seals - again 90% of seals are worthless. Add to the fact that for a seal and judgement to be worth their cost it needs to last the full 30 seconds. and even then the mana cost of sealing up and judging is fairly prohibitive. when you get into PvP situations one of the largest skillsets of the paladin becomes unusable. nobody is going to live long enough for it to be worth judging a seal on them. which leads to:

5. PvP skills - The paladin has by far the least amount of skills that are in any way usable in pvp as opposed to other classes. If you thought upper level paladins were restricted to back up healers in PvE, this is only magnified in a PvP setting.

Are any of these items class breaking? No, but they are symptoms of a larger problem with the class, in that in reality it doesnt play how it is designed. The ideas for seals and blessings are good ideas. they just dont work that way. If paladins are supposed to be back up healers give them more items available with Int on them. Etc. Etc.

[oldmandennis]

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/clas...ladin.html

I find the paladin plays very close to what is described here, of course they don't mention the fact that many players find them boring to solo. Where were they advertised to be melee mosters?

[MongoJerry]

If you're Arms specced, they're essentially a nonthreat.  Save up 70 Rage: MS, WW, Execute.  They won't have time to bubble.

Considering that my priestess doesn't get taken down quite that quickly, I'll take it for the exaggeration that it is. An MS and WW should not bring a paladin anywhere near execute range. If you really are taking down plate-wearing shield-capable paladins that quickly, then you're meeting up against some very clueless and poorly equipped paladins.

[MongoJerry]

It's largely attention span

It's very easy for most classes even one-on-one to damage a paladin to the point where s/he will bubble. Seeing a paladin bubble means they're virtually defenseless for 5 minutes unless you're melee in which case you need to make them burn BoP too.

Lay On Hands is over-rated. If there's a group of pvpers killing a paladin who has 10% life and the other protective skills on cooldown, healing to 100% only delays the inevitable for about 3 seconds

The reason players don't find pallies easy to kill in group pvp is that they don't victimise them enough. If more players had the sense to consider the bubble a red flag rather than a reason to go find someone else to kill, paladins whould be a much milder threat

Ah, but you're missing a key element here: You're talking about *group* PvP. All that time the team is busy whacking on that paladin's bubble or trying to burn through the paladin's Lay On Hands or whatever, the rest of the paladin's party is chewing right through the ranks of the opponent. Sure, a group can kill a paladin, but in the meantime, the half the party will be killed in the exchange. That's not an effective tactic. The only really effective tactic is to ignore the paladin and hope you can kill other players fast enough that the paladin can't get any heals off. Meanwhile, you just have to accept that all your magic dots and crowd control spells are going to be dispelled. You can try to sheep the paladin and force them to bubble out of it to make killing him or her easier later, but the idea that a group should try to go through the agony of trying to take down a paladin while the rest of his or her group is chewing through the ranks of your own party is silly.

[JustAGuy]

In my previous post, I wrote that the Paladin has no direct damage/instant cast (damage-on-demand) abilities. That is incorrect, as he has four real castable skills: two AoEs and two direct damage instant cast spells. You have to spec one way or another for the non-undead only skills. There's also a judgement that deals damage (Righteousness, very weak) but it's practically not worth mentioning. This list is for all skills at their maximum levels:

1. Exorcism. Direct holy damage, instant cast, 505-563 damage to undeads. The 15 second cooldown and the relatively low mana cost of 345 make this skill a staple of Paladin vs Undead combat (note: not undead players. Why? I'll never know. They're undead too...). It's got long range, instant cast, a low cooldown, and relatively low mana cost; can't really ask for more when it comes to a direct damage spell. BUT, it's undead only, so that severely limits its use, making it PvE only.

2. Holy Shock. Does 365-395 damage at it's highest level. Instant cast, but costs 480 mana to use, 30 second cooldown. You need to specialize in the Holy Tree, as it's the last talent. If you do so, you can't get Consecration. Basically, you choose AoE or direct damage... Considering the damage it does, the 480 mana to cast for only 395 damage is hard to justify.

3. Consecration. You need to specialize in the retribution talents to a certain degree. It's a weak AoE-DoT, hitting for 384 damage to all who enter the consecrated area for 8 seconds. 565 mana to cast. This has more uses than just damage, so it's definitely worth looking into over holy shock. As far as PvP goes, it can unstealth rogues, and damages mages through their mana shields. It's only a little bit of damage, but still...

4. Holy Wrath. Big mana hog at 805 mana to cast, 2 second cast time. Does 490-576 damage to all undeads in 20 yard radius (huge!). It's undead only. Works well enough in Plaguelands, but at 805 to cast it and 1 minute cooldown, it's not something you can run around spamming.

So there you have it. Four skills you can use to do damage-on-demand, two of which are severely limited by the undead only restriction, and two that do poor damage and are mutually exclusive. In non-undead areas, such as any PvP setting, your options are still Consecration OR Holy Shock, both of which end up being pretty harmless. Consecration stands out because it is an AoE-DoT that can uncloak a rogue.

The only other thing that is semi-instant cast is the judgement of righteousness. Judging a mob or player with this inflicts 133 holy damage. It costs 11% of your base mana to cast a judgement plus the 175 mana to cast the seal, so this isn't necessarily a mana friendly damage dealer, especially since judging with crusader first is usually what's done in PvE. In PvP, you won't have enough time to even bother with judging anything. Either your team mates will kill him before the cooldown wears off, or he'll get away, or if he's a serious damage dealer, he'll force you to bubble, making you use your mana for more important things, like heals and cleansing.

All of these skills' damage output are amplified by two skills: Judgement of the Crusader, and the Sanctity Aura. Sanctity amplifies holy damage by 10% (big wow...) and the Judgement of the Crusader adds "up to 140" holy damage. "Up to 140" basically means you're only going to add about 50 damage to your direct stuff like Exorcism and Seal of Command, and 3 or 4 damage per second on your Consecration.

Consecration vs Holy Shock: Consecration wins, in my opinion. It does less damage, but does it to more than one target. Sure, you can pull with Holy Shock, but there are other ways to pull with a Paladin. Engineers have that area covered, and non-engineers can use Linken's Boomerang.

So you see, I didn't mention these skills previously because they pretty much amount to jack-squat in PvP and non-undead encounters. Even with these added abilities, most monster encounters boil down to, "Click... wait... click... wait...". I'm probably going to grind to get my 60th level in the Plaguelands when the server comes back up, so my undead only skills will make me feel good about my decision to start my second go 'round with WoW as a Paladin.

Here's 45 seconds of combat against an undead: "Exorcize... Click... Wait... Click... Wait... Holy Wrath... Drink...".

[Arnulf]

Some thoughts about paladins from a paladin. :)

PvE/Group Play.

PvE play changes from the 20s to the 40s to the 60s. The role you have in your teens and early twens as a paladin is varied from healer/support to even damage dealer. The further you get into the game you're more of a pure support class.

Tanking is an option, but alas, it's severely hampered by the fact that you have only one threat-generating skill at your disposal. But tanking is effective against Undead. Stratholme/Scholomance is made easier with paladins in your group. I specced my paladin with 38 points in protection hoping that I would make a decent main tank. Unfortunately I haven't found the correct tactic yet or there is really a severe lack in talents for tanking as a paladin. If the opponents are undead melee types Holy Shield helps somewhat in keeping aggro too, but not by much.

Divine Intervention. DI is the last straw your group has in the face of a potential wipe. Learning to interpret the signs of an upcoming wipe and applying DI correctly takes some getting used to though.

Cleansing/purifying is getting more important in the higher end-game instances than support healing or dealing damage. In Molten Core for instance you are essentially a Buff/Cleanse-Bot. This is not to say it's boring, but going toe-to-toe with mobs in Molten Core has miniscule advantages at best. But I learned that hunters like it when the paladin tries to judge a Seal of Wisdom on a hard-to-bring-down mob.

Healing as a paladin. Hmm.. this is one topic where I'm doubtful. The Big Heal (aka Holy Light) takes too long. When my HL takes off some priest or druid has healed my target already and I wasted my mana. I've resigned to use my Flash of Light (pally's Flash Heal) dispersing it over the raid wherever I think it's useful. Combined with Blessing of Light I think it does help somewhat. I like to think that my small heals provide enough buffer that the main healers can complete the job. But I can't see myself as a main healer.

However I haven't tried a Holy build yet. I believe there is some potential with that.

PvP.

I seriously lack in 1on1-PvP. I get dominated by rogues, warriors, shamans, sometimes priests, mages, and warlocks. Other classes ignore me most of the time. The best I can hope for is a remis. However I usually do not attack first. Most of the time I get ambushed. The really frustrating thing is to finally get the upper hand and helplessly watch how my attacker slips away.

There's probably a counter for each tactic. I bet there's even one against Artega's Whirlwind/Mortal Strike/Execute. I just haven't found it yet. :) I rarely use my bubble for self-healing anymore. But it has other uses. For instance it can break the charm of a succubus.

I also believe that PvP is heavily item dependent. I'm on a server where probably 400 people are raiding MC on a sunday regularly. Alterac is always full. Sometimes even two Alterac instances are running. If you are in a large guild chances are you're wearing one or two epic items. I've come up against many warriors who were using this hammer. One warrior even came back with that after he realized he couldn't beat me with a fist weapon and I almost had him down before...

Group play is a different thing. Cleanse, cleanse, and cleanse again. Opponent realizes that Fear, Polymorph, and Frost Nova does not help anymore and your group can move in for the kill. :) Well, it's not that easy. But it helps alot.

Builds.

I think there are too many Retribution paladins. People should use more variety. One of these days I'm going to prove that Holy paladins can deal good damage too. :)

I'm toying with an idea where a group composed solely of paladins could do any instance. If the builds are complementing each other. Example: Sanctity Aura combined with holy damage spells/skills should go a long way I think. 1 Protection/2 Retribution/2 Holy paladins should cut through Stratholme or Scholomance like a hot knife through butter! There's nothing like having five different auras active and 5 different blessings.

If I had one wish from Blizzard then it would be: Let Sense Undead sense the Undead players too. I've got ambushed on the docks of Menethil way too often...

Oh yeah! Paladins rock UBRS!!

-Arnulf

[Tal]

Tanking is an option, but alas, it's severely hampered by the fact that you have only one threat-generating skill at your disposal. But tanking is effective against Undead. Stratholme/Scholomance is made easier with paladins in your group. I specced my paladin with 38 points in protection hoping that I would make a decent main tank. Unfortunately I haven't found the correct tactic yet or there is really a severe lack in talents for tanking as a paladin. If the opponents are undead melee types Holy Shield helps somewhat in keeping aggro too, but not by much.
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That is because the best skills for tanking are counter-intuitive. To be effective over multiple elites the paladin must have the mob pulled away from any CC. Then they hit the pulled mob with improved SoF and judge it with retribution aura up not with any other aura, especially devotion. The paladin also consecrates the ground and fires up seal of fury to hit the extra mobs. You then move from target to target rejudging SoF as necessary and casting holy shield. Worse comes to worse you stun a mob thats going after your healer/squishies and use blessing of protection in worse case scenarios. The group make up with a paladin as MT also must be heavy in CC and single target DPS to assist the paladin with burning the targets down without pulling aggro. A priest is almost required to be main healer behind a paladin not because of any perceived short comings with druid healing but because priests can mindcontrol and fade.

[Tal]

Considering that my priestess doesn't get taken down quite that quickly, I'll take it for the exaggeration that it is.  An MS and WW should not bring a paladin anywhere near execute range.  If you really are taking down plate-wearing shield-capable paladins that quickly, then you're meeting up against some very clueless and poorly equipped paladins.
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Oh its definitely a exaggeration but not too much of one. In general Arms/Fury warriors make Shar struggle quite a bit. I've won but its been a close thing each time I've won. I lose more than I win against mortal strike warriors who seem to gravitate towards the arcanite axe. ;) The fights aren't short though. ;)

[Arnulf]

... To be effective over multiple elites the paladin must have the mob pulled away from any CC. Then they hit the pulled mob with improved SoF and judge it with retribution aura up not with any other aura, especially devotion. The paladin also consecrates the ground and fires up seal of fury to hit the extra mobs. You then move from target to target rejudging SoF as necessary and casting holy shield....
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Uh! That sounds like hard work! I'm glad I'm playing a supportive class. ;)

I don't have Consecrate. ... and I can almost feel the stares when I have to explain that I don't have Blessing of Kings. ;)

Anyway..

Concerning Seal of Fury: I'm under the impression that judging SoF only benefits aggro holding if you get healing. So I thought it would be most appropriate for boss mobs where you're supposed to get major damage and holding aggro at the same time. Normal instance elites should be manageable with casting (improved) SoF and just hitting every mob that you want to keep to yourself.

Hmm... maybe that is confusing. Let me try again: Seal of Fury should generate threat by just hitting mobs. Judging Seal of Fury only generates threat if the paladin is healed.

Or am I wrong?

-Arnulf

[Brista]

but the idea that a group should try to go through the agony of trying to take down a paladin while the rest of his or her group is chewing through the ranks of your own party is silly.

Ah, but you're not trying for a takedown, you're trying to force a bubble. If your team is aggressive towards paladins, but only till the bubble then all refocus it is an effective tactic

Once you get into the rythym of it you'll find that often in trying to force a bubble you'll meet a pally with bubble on cooldown and get a kill instead

Two basic points:

- never ignore a healer
- never stand around in a group watching a bubbled pally bandaging himself


From a paladin's point of view this level of coordination is so rare that you get the level of invulnerability MongoJerry describes, but occasionally you'll meet a very good team and will drop from invulnerable to barely tougher than anyone else

[Tal]

Uh! That sounds like hard work! I'm glad I'm playing a supportive class. ;)

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Thats what is so hard about building a tanking paladin - you almost have to go down retibution for multi-target damage for holding multiple aggro. Imagine the looks I get as a protection paladin when I explain that I didn't get improved Salvation. ;)

Concerning Seal of Fury: I'm under the impression that judging SoF only benefits aggro holding if you get healing. So I thought it would be most appropriate for boss mobs where you're supposed to get major damage and holding aggro at the same time. Normal instance elites should be manageable with casting (improved) SoF and just hitting every mob that you want to keep to yourself.

Hmm... maybe that is confusing. Let me try again: Seal of Fury should generate threat by just hitting mobs. Judging Seal of Fury only generates threat if the paladin is healed.

Or am I wrong?

-Arnulf
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Its my understanding that any holy damage will generate additional threat. This means that everytime you get hit and retribution is reflected will up your threat level. Seal of Righteousness proccing, holyshield, and consecrate all conspire to keep you on top of the hate list in my experience with judged seal of fury. Its been rumored that firing up seal of light and having that proc will also cause threat. I haven't done any real testing on this as the need for Shar to MT has been eliminated by my capping Shalandrax and Galreth and Gnolack also capping and being available. :)

Unleashing this Seal's energy will judge an enemy for 30 sec, causing Holy damage spells cast on that enemy to generate additional threat. Only one Judgement per Paladin can be active at any one time.

[Tuftears]

I'm toying with an idea where a group composed solely of paladins could do any instance. If the builds are complementing each other. Example: Sanctity Aura combined with holy damage spells/skills should go a long way I think. 1 Protection/2 Retribution/2 Holy paladins should cut through Stratholme or Scholomance like a hot knife through butter! There's nothing like having five different auras active and 5 different blessings.

There's a group of five in the Basin doing just that - the Volvo group, which meets on Monday evenings if I recall correctly. They just entered Maraudon at level 43-45. So far they've been quite successful in tackling the earlier dungeons while under level comparatively speaking, because of the endurance they can muster.

On the other hand, that lack of DPS is definitely starting to hurt. I'm curious to see how they'll do against the Princess, because her AOE is going to be nasty... My group of level 49-53s has been having trouble with her and it's a reasonable group of a warrior, paladin, two priests, and a mage.

[Artega]

Considering that my priestess doesn't get taken down quite that quickly, I'll take it for the exaggeration that it is.  An MS and WW should not bring a paladin anywhere near execute range.  If you really are taking down plate-wearing shield-capable paladins that quickly, then you're meeting up against some very clueless and poorly equipped paladins.
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You're assuming that the warrior is only using those three attacks. He'll also be getting two to three (dependant on weapon speed) normal attacks in. Assuming he's Axe-spec, like most Arms Warriors are, it's not unreasonable to assume at least three of his attacks will crit. If they're normal attacks, it's 200% damage. If it's a special, it's 220% damage. It's very possible to crit for 1000+ on plate-wearers with an MS or WW crit, and 800-920 normal crits aren't uncommon, either. Execute crits, while only operating on the target's last 19% HP, can do truly obscene damage.

Sure, I haven't been fighting Pallies wearing 7/8 Lawbringer and 1/8 Judgement, but I'm wearing little more than a few pieces of Valor and some random blues and the occasional odd green.