Blizzard to Paladins:

[Chesspiece_face]

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.a...mp=1#post116961

Blessing of Salvation is an interesting spell. It's completely and totally meaningless in PvP. It's completely useless for a soloing Paladin. It's a minor (at best) imrprovement in a 5-man, PvE encounter.

For a raid encounter, where Aggro management can determine the outcome of a fight, it's an extremely powerful and advantageous spell.

As more and more raid encounters enter the game, and as aggro management plays a larger role in these encounters, it's obvious that spells like Blessing of Salvation need to be evaluated.

Now, the core of the controversy surrounding this spell is, of course, that the Alliance has it and the Horde does not. Let me take a moment to state that we do *NOT* expect all encounters to play the same for Horde and Alliance. In a perfect world, an *occassional* encounter will be easier (or more difficult) depending on whether or not you are Horde or Alliance. A good example of this is Magmadar. Some might argue that Magmadar is easier for the Alliance because of Fear Ward. Some might argue that he's easier for the Horde because of WotF. At the end of the day, both Horde and Alliance can beat the encounter. And it's not a drastic difference in difficulty. It is ok that sometimes the two sides are different -- if this wasn't ok, Starcraft wouldn't exist =P

But Blessing of Salvation is a different case. The spell translates through to any encounter where Taunt does not work (and to some degree, even encounters where Taunt does work).

We are aware that Blessing of Salvation is causing a sense of imbalance between the two factions. The recent addition of Taunt to the drakes in Blackwing Lair was *NOT* a solution for this problem. The Drakes needed Taunt (with the exception of Flamegor) because they have inherent anti-tank abilities to begin with.

But in the long run, we are analyzing Blessing of Salvation's overall impact on the Raid Game. At this point, the raid and dungeon designers are consulting directly with the Class Spells & Abilities team to determine what the next step will be. We will evaluate if BoS is too powerful or too weak. We will evaluate if the Horde has adequate aggro management solutions to match that of the Alliance. But it will take some time before any change is made. I will keep you informed of any developments that arise.

Our goal is not to favor Horde or Alliance here. Our goal is to provide our players with a fun experience, regardless of what side they chose at the Character Create Screen. Equally, our goal is to keep our raid encounters as fun and challenging as possible.

In other words: "You silly paladins if we've told you once we've told you a thousand times! You are a solo class! Go solo. Don't worry, you can still cleanse in raids (at least till next patch when we change cleanse so it can only be used out of combat! LOLOLorz)

seriously though, they better do some serious changes to how paladins work in the next few content patches if they are gonna continue to nerf the hell out of the few things we do offer to a raid.

[Rinnhart]

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.a...mp=1#post116961
In other words:  "You silly paladins if we've told you once we've told you a thousand times!  You are a solo class!  Go solo.  Don't worry, you can still cleanse in raids (at least till next patch when we change cleanse so it can only be used out of combat!  LOLOLorz)

seriously though, they better do some serious changes to how paladins work in the next few content patches if they are gonna continue to nerf the hell out of the few things we do offer to a raid.
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IT IS WORKING AS INTENDED. WE WERE INVITED, CHECK WITH POLAND.

[Chesspiece_face]

Then again, I can totally understand how blizzard can be completely oblivious to paladin issues saying that Fangtooth, the mod/dev supposedly in charge of reporting paladin concerns etc has rerolled his/her paladin twice now from a RP server to a PvP server and now to a new PvP/RP server.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.a...mp=1#post360141

Not only that but openly admits they have only gotten the class to the mid twenties (although Fang covers well with "current" pffft)...

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.a...mp=1#post362118

[Leshy]

seriously though, they better do some serious changes to how paladins work in the next few content patches if they are gonna continue to nerf the hell out of the few things we do offer to a raid.
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Ironically, the link you pasted has nothing to do with Paladins. It has to do with a clear imbalance between the Horde and the Alliance; the fact that this is caused by a Paladin ability happens to be a mere coincidence. It might as well have been a Priest or a Druid ability.

It is a simple matter of fact that currently Horde guilds are not progressing beyond a certain boss, I believe it is Firemaw, in Blackwing Lair, whereas several Alliance guilds have already begun dealing with Nefarian. This is all due to Blessing of Salvation. It allows Alliance guilds to do up to 30% more healing, 30% more damage and generally 30% more of everything that draws aggro, which especially in Blackwing Lair has proven to be an incredible advantage due to the anti-tank abilities of many mobs.

Blizzard has not yet stated how they intend to address this imbalance. They might very well decrease the effectiveness of the Paladin ability, as I can not see an easy way to give Horde guilds a similar option. This has, however, nothing to do with the fact that Blizz has it out for Paladins or anything like that.

[Chesspiece_face]

it was not my intention to intonate that blizzard had any specific vendetta towards paladins. I agree that BoS is inherantly an unbalanced character attribute. But the reality of paladin play presently is that the minority of situations where a paladin is specifically useful in end-game content (above any other character type) is completely based on those unbalanced attributes. The covert implications of altering those same attributes is that paladins lose any and all of their usefulness.

Blizzard has not said how they will alter BoS in the future but the logical assumption is that they would lower it's effectiveness by a good deal. The only other options would be to change how it works entirely or to offer a similer spell to the Shaman (which i'm sure would get quite the uproar). In that the logical change would be to alter the particular skill, yes, it is entirely specific towards paladins.

I am presetnly extremelly wary regarding the upcoming changes to the paladin class. With the above post from the devs it can be implied that a specific change is going to be an alteration to the effectiveness of BoS, what worries me more is what general changes blizzard will implement to the class in the next few months to skills/talant trees that will counteract the inherant loss of usefulness.

In addition I have not seen any implications from blizzard that they have even the slightest comprehension of the issues inherantly related to the paladin in the first place. I also believe that the changes required for the class are drastic enough that the devs will most likely shy away from making such great alterations and instead continue on the path they have been taking to just slap band aides around and gloss over the real issues.

I'm crossing my fingers that i'm wrong on this.

[kandrathe]

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.a...mp=1#post116961
In other words:  "You silly paladins if we've told you once we've told you a thousand times!  You are a solo class!  Go solo.  Don't worry, you can still cleanse in raids (at least till next patch when we change cleanse so it can only be used out of combat!  LOLOLorz)

seriously though, they better do some serious changes to how paladins work in the next few content patches if they are gonna continue to nerf the hell out of the few things we do offer to a raid.
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It would seem fair to add some threat reduction to Shaman resistance totems, but maybe not 30%. I still think with WoTF and Tremor Totem that Horde has some advantagees that Alliance does not have. Getting your raid paladins to keep BoS on you is another challenge. :P And, perhaps the problem is not with the classes at all, maybe it is with the BWL bosses that are too hard to tank.

[Artega]

Keep in mind that WotF is a racial, not a class ability.

It might as well have been a Priest or a Druid ability.

Both sides have access to Priests and Druids. The issue is that the Alliance has a potent hate-reducing ability, while the Horde does not. I'd rather the Horde GET an ability like that rather than take it or nerf it from the Alliance, though.

[Brista]

This seems beyond dumb to me

The response to various balance issues like shamans' killing ability in pvp relative to paladins and the WG 21-30 imbalance has been that not every part of the game is perfectly balanced for all classes

When finally the imbalance swings the other way they change tack and think it's a problem needing addressing

If the game is intended to be balanced just on end-game pve raiding then I wish they'd come out and say so. At the moment it just seems like the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing

[acidjax]

It would be interesting if the horde "equivalent" to Blessing of Salvation was to get all damage dealers to swap out their epic gear for greens to do less damage. hahaha.

It may actually make some fights like Onyxia easier...

[Artega]

If the game is intended to be balanced just on end-game pve raiding then I wish they'd come out and say so. At the moment it just seems like the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing
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I agree to a point, but the fact that these bosses are tank-immune (e.g. immune to taunt-like effects) means the Alliance has a very significant advantage over the Horde in these scenarios.

The fact that the Horde have a relatively small advantage in areas like the 21-30 tier of Warsong doesn't justify the Alliance having a large advantage in end-game PvE content.

[MongoJerry]

This seems beyond dumb to me

The response to various balance issues like shamans' killing ability in pvp relative to paladins and the WG 21-30 imbalance has been that not every part of the game is perfectly balanced for all classes

When finally the imbalance swings the other way they change tack and think it's a problem needing addressing

If you (and this is a plural use of you) don't realize how powerful having plate wearing invincible healers, cleansers, and buffers is in both in PvP and PvE, then I don't know what else to say. Listening to some of the comments here, you'd think that paladins are some weak marginalized class, when in fact they are one of the most powerful nearly unbalancing classes in the game -- especially in any kind of group encounter. Yes, the shaman has great solo capabilities, but throw some paladins who know what they are doing in a group, and the results are unbelievable.

[kandrathe]

It would be interesting if the horde "equivalent" to Blessing of Salvation was to get all damage dealers to swap out their epic gear for greens to do less damage.  hahaha.

It may actually make some fights like Onyxia easier...
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On our Stormrage Onyxia battles we actually pause damage sometimes at 80% when the MT is having trouble holding aggro to allow the MT to re-establish hate. I don't see why the horde couldn't do something similiar. The top two single point of damage classes (Hunter, Rogue) both have aggro zeroing skills. The classes most affected in a long battle would be druid (and shaman I guess) healers, mages, and warlocks. The issue the Alliance has in doing this tactic is mana loss in healing, but Shaman's with a well timed and placed mana tide totem should rock. One problem with high end raid bosses is that more time means more opportunity for mistakes and the wear of attrition. I tend to want to compare the Shaman to the Paladin so, in that case, MonjoJerry is right that the Paladins toughness and skills far surpass the Shaman. I don't want to remake the Shaman into a Troll Paladin, but in the grand scheme of Horde vs Alliance there should be balance and equity (which is why I mentioned WoTF).

My first ever PvP win was against a equally leveled shaman. I sent Felix after the Shaman, and I healed him and knocked down all the totems, getting in my own wing clips. Once the Shaman was oom, we both engaged FTW. In PvP, anything relying on a totem is a useless waste of mana.

[MongoJerry]

On our Stormrage Onyxia battles we actually pause damage sometimes at 80% when the MT is having trouble holding aggro to allow the MT to re-establish hate.  I don't see why the horde couldn't do something similiar.  The top two single point of damage classes (Hunter, Rogue) both have aggro zeroing skills.  The classes most affected in a long battle would be druid (and shaman I guess) healers,  mages, and warlocks.  The issue the Alliance has in doing this tactic is mana loss in healing, but Shaman's with a well timed and placed mana tide totem should rock.  One problem with high end raid bosses is that more time means more opportunity for mistakes and the wear of attrition.

We just tell everyone to use auto-attack and auto-wand in the first phase. With all the healers healing one main tank target, everyone regens mana nearly as fast as they cast their spells, so they don't lose mana. The first phase is never a problem. The third phase would be where having that seal would be nice, but there are other bosses where having that seal would be even better. For example, against Ragnaros, the rogues could go all out and not have to spam feint. It'd probably be easy to get Ragnaros in one set of sons that way. We're working on getting to that point anyway, but having that seal sure would make the job a lot easier.

[Rinnhart]

If you (and this is a plural use of you) don't realize how powerful having plate wearing invincible healers, cleansers, and buffers is in both in PvP and PvE, then I don't know what else to say.  Listening to some of the comments here, you'd think that paladins are some weak marginalized class, when in fact they are one of the most powerful nearly unbalancing classes in the game -- especially in any kind of group encounter.  Yes, the shaman has great solo capabilities, but throw some paladins who know what they are doing in a group, and the results are unbelievable.
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Your departure from previous comments demands rational.

How, oh wise Jerry on the mount, are paladins the most powerful nearly unbalancing class in the game?

[acidjax]

If you (and this is a plural use of you) don't realize how powerful having plate wearing invincible healers, cleansers, and buffers is in both in PvP and PvE, then I don't know what else to say.  Listening to some of the comments here, you'd think that paladins are some weak marginalized class, when in fact they are one of the most powerful nearly unbalancing classes in the game -- especially in any kind of group encounter.  Yes, the shaman has great solo capabilities, but throw some paladins who know what they are doing in a group, and the results are unbelievable.
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Plate isn't all it's cracked up to be. It doesn't offer any inherent damage mitigation to spell damage. They also have to choose what stats they want to buff. That paladin with 6.5k mana doesn't have anywhere near the 5.5k life of a decked out warrior. No, he has around 3-3.2k life. The paladin with 4.5k+ life has half the mana.

Paladins are third-rate healers. Even though they can attain a high amount of mana, their lack of a "good" fast heal makes them even more expectant healers then druids. In group PvP, blessing of light doesn't stay up long on people getting hit a lot (dispel/purge) and then they lack in healing over time.

Cleansing in PvP is debatable. In the large AV fights there's not many important debuffs to get rid of. A couple priests using decursive easily cure everyone of magic as enemy priests and warlocks periodically decide to dump mana trying to mass DoT people. I would think purge is just as useful as you have a class that isn't (usually) a primary healer that can pay attention and target enemies rather then focusing on allies.

Cleansing in PvE is useful. Unfortunately most debuffs in raids tend to be magic or curse and oftentimes an extra priest would've been more preferable then the paladin.

I agree that Paladins are strong as buffers, most noticeably in PvE. Paladins can actually get in range and use judgements to good effect. Judgement of Wisdom is great for hunters and wanding casters. Salvation is awesome. They don't get all the nice offensive buffs that compare to shaman totems but they definitely get better "defensive" ones.

Paladins might be seen as weak because they have distinct weaknesses that offset their strengths. They lack in damage on call, ranged options, and "spammable" snares/stuns. When you look at a class like shaman, you don't see any glaring weaknesses. Mana in-efficient shocks might've been a more apparent weakness in beta but not now with the buff to mana gain from int and new gear.

[kandrathe]

Your departure from previous comments demands rational.

How, oh wise Jerry on the mount, are paladins the most powerful nearly unbalancing class in the game?
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It's a little unfair to compare WOW of June 2005, with the WOW of today. Much of what he talked about in that post has changed. I do disagree with his assessment of Paladins in instances and that might have been a narrowness of experience on MonjoJerry's part, and I've experienced the opposite where by using BoS in our 5-man's and Raid's we could proceed faster and without pulling aggro off the a tank than without.

I went on two vastly different 5-man's of Scholomance with Tal as main tank, (me)a hunter, a priest, and a mage were the same. The one difference was in one we had a Paladin, and in the next we had a Warlock. Tal was incredulous as to why he was having so much more trouble holding aggro, while the mobs and his pacing were the same. The difference was the lack of a Paladin.

[Tal]

It's a little unfair to compare WOW of June 2005, with the WOW of today.  Much of what he talked about in that post has changed.  I do disagree with his assessment of Paladins in instances and that might have been a narrowness of experience on MonjoJerry's part, and I've experienced the opposite where by using BoS in our 5-man's and Raid's we could proceed faster and without pulling aggro off the a tank than without. [right][snapback]87034[/snapback][/right]

Actually the big difference is that MJ was discussing the Beta paladin in relation to the Retail one. Vastly different animals. HUGE difference.

[kandrathe]

Actually the big difference is that MJ was discussing the Beta paladin in relation to the Retail one. Vastly different animals. HUGE difference.
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That would explain it. :) The pendulum swung pretty far then after Beta, and continues to swing in the Paladin's favor (as far as I can tell.)

[MongoJerry]

Plate isn't all it's cracked up to be.  It doesn't offer any inherent damage mitigation to spell damage.  They also have to choose what stats they want to buff.  That paladin with 6.5k mana doesn't have anywhere near the 5.5k life of a decked out warrior.  No, he has around 3-3.2k life.  The paladin with 4.5k+ life has half the mana.

Please, give me plate. I'll show you what my priest can do if you give me 5-6k armor, the ability to wear a shield, and the ability to go invincible for 12 seconds.

Cleansing in PvP is debatable.

I stare blankly at the screen when reading this statement. Sheep, frost nova, entangling roots, slowing poison, as well as most of the offensive power of two classes -- warlocks and priests. And you think it's "debatable"? Cleansing is one of the most powerful tools in PvP that completely alters the course of battles.

In the large AV fights there's not many important debuffs to get rid of.

Ah, now I understand the confusion. You mistake the large battles in AV for PvP. That's not PvP. That's just a zerg-fest reputation grinding. You can't even discuss most PvP with regards to the large battles in AV, because most people don't get to use most of their best PvP or crowd control abilities there. Real PvP happens in 5-10 player confrontations. People who fight outdoors or in CTF matches understand this and occationally you get these smaller battles in AV. Perhaps more people will get to see this when Arathi Basin comes out, since it looks like a more real PvP battleground. In these situations, cleansing absolutely destroys the other team, because they can't use any of their crowd control abilities. If one side has dispellers and the other doesn't, the one that doesn't is dead. Period.

A couple priests using decursive easily cure everyone of magic as enemy priests and warlocks periodically decide to dump mana trying to mass DoT people.

Again, what you're not getting is that against any reasonably organized opposition, those "couple priests" will be dead within 5 seconds. Groups make macros with the names of priests on them to target and kill them instantly. For example, I was in a CTF match a couple nights ago against Notorious and I was the only priest on our team. I was *way* in the back of our group and on initial contact with the enemy, three warriors charged me and knocked me around with Unstoppable Forces. All were fear immune, of course. I had enough time to cast one PW:Shield before dying. If I were a paladin, I could have bubbled, healed, and laughed at those idiot warriors who were wasting their time attacking a paladin while their team is being ripped apart by my partymates. Instead, I died.

Now my party has no dispeller, so three of my partymates are sheeped, one's entangled, and the rest are frost novaed and have dots ticking on them. Meanwhile, the enemy team is free and clear to do whatever they want. The warriors now charge one cloth wearer at a time while all the ranged dps picks people apart. The party gets routed within 30 seconds.

Of course, having more priests would help and it does, but it doesn't change the fact that priests are the first ones targeted by the enemy and they can be easily killed, unlike paladins. Get a couple good paladins together, and it's devastating in any 5-10 player confrontation. Heck, a good paladin combined with a warrior alone is quite an amazing combination.

I would think purge is just as useful as you have a class that isn't (usually) a primary healer that can pay attention and target enemies rather then focusing on allies.

There's only a few things that purge is useful for in PvP -- and most of that is dispelling priest and mage shields. But those shields can just as easily be "purged" by dealing damage, so purge really isn't any special advantage. Cleanse is far and away more powerful.

Cleansing in PvE is useful.  Unfortunately most debuffs in raids tend to be magic or curse and oftentimes an extra priest would've been more preferable then the paladin.

I agree that Paladins are strong as buffers, most noticeably in PvE.  Paladins can actually get in range and use judgements to good effect.  Judgement of Wisdom is great for hunters and wanding casters.  Salvation is awesome.  They don't get all the nice offensive buffs that compare to shaman totems but they definitely get better "defensive" ones.

Cleansing is definitely useful in PvE, although I agree that it's not strictly necessary. The boss fight that first comes to mind is against the Baron in Molten Core, where Horde has to use "reverse roles" for healing. What The Core does is have all the shamans and druids be the main healers on the main tank when fighting the Baron, while the priests heal and dispell their parties, since priests are the only dispellers that the Horde has. Alliance raids, in contrast, can keep priests on main tank heal duty while paladins continue to dispel and heal their parties as usual. However, this is a small difference.

The bigger difference in large raids is all the buffs that can be specialized according to class. Sheesh, the aggro increase and aggro reduction seals alone are incredible. But even without those, the auras and seals are still amazing and definitely outshine what shamans can bring to the table.

Paladins might be seen as weak because they have distinct weaknesses that offset their strengths.  They lack in damage on call, ranged options, and "spammable" snares/stuns.  When you look at a class like shaman, you don't see any glaring weaknesses.  Mana in-efficient shocks might've been a more apparent weakness in beta but not now with the buff to mana gain from int and new gear.

Shamans are good. But they can be killed, unlike paladins. And they don't have cleanse, unlike paladins. Those are huge advantages that paladins have over shamans in PvP.


Now, let's clear up any perceived "contradictions" in my past assessments of paladins. Any contradictions seen are merely due to the reader wishing there to be contradictions and not due to any changes on my part. Let's clear up the situation right now:

1. I have consistently said that paladins as a class are far and away overpowered in PvP. The only times that paladins are weak in PvP is because the player has no clue how to play one and thinks that his or her job is to whack on people. If the player plays the character as a "priest wearing plate," he or she can be incredibly devastating. And, as a bonus, I'd like to add that paladin dps is climbing sharply with all the new weapons being added to the game. They're starting to hurt now, too, which is disturbing. Having an invicible player who can also kill things is would over the top unbalance the PvP game.

2. I think that paladins aren't as useful in 5-man PvE parties. I would much rather have two priests or a priest-druid combination than a priest-paladin combination. If you have a good warrior tank who knows how to keep aggro on multiple targets, all of that paladin invinsibility goes to waste. And in small parties, those seals and buffs, while nice, aren't as useful as in a large raid. Again, however, this has much to do with the ability of the player. If the paladin thinks that his or her primary job is to be up front and whack on things, then that paladin will be less useful than he or she could be. If he or she believes that placing seals and healing people is of primary importance and that whacking on things is of secondary importance, however, the paladin can play a useful role in a 5-man PvE party.

3. In a raid situation, paladin seals become incredibly powerful as all those seals and auras and such add up. Also, the ineffectiveness of their short cast time heals become less important as they can spam their long heals on the tank(s). Plus, they can do various "oops" skills like Lay on Hands once an hour to heal a tank to full if the tank gets too low (also a very annoying skill in CTF when used on a flag carrier) and sacrifice themselves to get a rezer out of combat. (It is much more difficult to do this with a shaman ankh, because the shaman has the contradictory task of finding a spot where he or she can die and then rez in a spot where he or she won't get hit and put in combat). The shaman heals and totems and such while useful aren't nearly as powerful or versatile as all of the seals and other abilities that paladins bring to a large raid. In a large raid, shamans are basically relegated to dropping a fire resist totem and either an agility or windfury totem. Or in a caster group, the shaman can drop a mana spring and/or mana tide totem. Otherwise, shamans are just there to add some extra healing. A common comment on our guild chat during raids against a tough boss is, "What I wouldn't give for just one paladin...".

[Quark]

1.  I have consistently said that paladins as a class are far and away overpowered in PvP.  The only times that paladins are weak in PvP is because the player has no clue how to play one and thinks that his or her job is to whack on people.  If the player plays the character as a "priest wearing plate," he or she can be incredibly devastating.  And, as a bonus, I'd like to add that paladin dps is climbing sharply with all the new weapons being added to the game.  They're starting to hurt now, too, which is disturbing.  Having an invicible player who can also kill things is would over the top unbalance the PvP game.

What, you mean like those warriors that can out DPS rogues with the uber-items? I still think itemization is becoming a problem more than class balance with the 2 handed weapons.

Sadly, the closest thing I've seen to a "priest wearing plate" is actually a paladin wearing cloth. He gave up a lot of plate to get better caster gear. So much for the extra armor ...

2.  I think that paladins aren't as useful in 5-man PvE parties.

There are two times I think "If only we had a paladin" in 5man. One, when a druid's the main healer who only has one res every 30 minutes. Two, when I want to be lazy and not watch my aggro. The second passes when I remember what the 5th class is bringing that Paladins cant.

Also, the ineffectiveness of their short cast time heals become less important as they can spam their long heals on the tank(s).

Haven't really heard of a group using Paladins as essential healers since they changed Blessing of Light. Just making it so you need less priests with Cleanse and occassional heals.

... and sacrifice themselves to get a rezer out of combat.  (It is much more difficult to do this with a shaman ankh, because the shaman has the contradictory task of finding a spot where he or she can die and then rez in a spot where he or she won't get hit and put in combat).

Bull, it can't be any harder than someone Soulstoned trying to get in a good spot. It also, unlike the other wipe recovery options, has a strict time limitation - do it too early, the DI'd person will probably die anyway.

The shaman heals and totems and such while useful aren't nearly as powerful or versatile as all of the seals and other abilities that paladins bring to a large raid.  In a large raid, shamans are basically relegated to dropping a fire resist totem and either an agility or windfury totem.  Or in a caster group, the shaman can drop a mana spring and/or mana tide totem.  Otherwise, shamans are just there to add some extra healing.  A common comment on our guild chat during raids against a tough boss is, "What I wouldn't give for just one paladin...".

So you're basically saying "Paladins add some to party effectiveness, and little to healing" then "Shamans add little to party effectiveness, and some to healing"?