The Lurkers on Tich

[Quark]

MJ everyone except you thinks carebear is offensive. I'm a pvper and I still think carebear is offensive

The fact that it's common has no bearing on its force. "Noob" is common and offensive. So (in a gaming context) is "gay"

If it's the typing that's the concern, just use PvEer which is shorter than carebear anyway
[right][snapback]88255[/snapback][/right]

This reminds me of a certain Blizzard employee starting a flamewar here over words. And a certain strategist getting caught with a racial slur he didn't know existed. Neither ended well, and it always goes bad when the offender refuses to accept that since others have different opinions might actually not want to hear it.

[Tal]

MJ everyone except you thinks carebear is offensive. I'm a pvper and I still think carebear is offensive

The fact that it's common has no bearing on its force. "Noob" is common and offensive. So (in a gaming context) is "gay"

If it's the typing that's the concern, just use PvEer which is shorter than carebear anyway
[right][snapback]88255[/snapback][/right]

You won't sway him.

[Bolty]

Not when you kept restarting your characters, repeatedly ran through the "gauntlet," which at the time was the 20-40ish levels (now, it's the 50's),[right][snapback]88251[/snapback][/right]

Right, like the level 47 Warlock I had that rarely if ever got ganked at all.

and when you mostly hung out in pseudo-alliance areas like Redridge, Duskwood, and the Wetlands, where of course most of your "PvP experience" would be ganking rather than real and fun PvP.  You also stuck to your philosophy of getting every quest in an area rather than using flexibility and teamwork to avoid the gankers.[right][snapback]88251[/snapback][/right]

I spent a few days in Redridge. I spent 2+ weeks in STV, the most battle-insane area of a PvP server. Remember that time I was grouped with you (and played really poorly, having an off day)?

I believe I likened your experience to walking into an area known to have a high crime rate late at night, getting mugged, and then shouting that the crime rate for the entire country was outrageous.[right][snapback]88251[/snapback][/right]

Well, yeah, that kind of summed the experience up for me. Remember that my goal was to evaluate the PvP environment. Good analogy! :)

Nope, but the reader can choose to be insulted or not.  It's a matter of giving the writer the benefit of the doubt.  I guess Mirajj has experienced the word "carebear" to be some gross insult and perhaps at one time, it was considered that way.  But it's a commonly used every-day term that it's lost most of the stigma applied to it.  One can choose to be insulted by the term "carebear" or one can read it as the common gamer shorthand term for "person who prefers PvE content and does not wish PvP content to interfere with one's gaming."[right][snapback]88251[/snapback][/right]

I guess people have experienced the word "nigger" to be some gross insult and perhaps at one time, it was considered that way. But it's a commonly used every-day term that it's lost most of the stigma applied to it. One can choose to be insulted by the term "nigger" or one can read it as the common derogatory term to "person of African descent."

Oops. Hmm, maybe it's derogatory to some people! Gasp! You just can't seem to accept that. I've been on PvP servers. People THERE use the term carebear constantly, just like "n00b," so that they can feel superior to other players.

Regarding Bolty's alleged "insult," it was for words that I had neither written nor implied.  I never said that Lurkers were "mindless zombies who will do anything [Bolty] says."  If someone gets insulted by something I didn't write, that shows you're absolutely right that I can't choose whether someone else gets insulted.[right][snapback]88251[/snapback][/right]

Since no posters here have come forward and stated they felt insulted by your statements, I retract that. I feel that your words implied that they can't make up their own minds, but I haven't heard that from anyone else so I'll stop. Sorry. I concede that point.

Remember that while I was on the PvP server in beta, I tried to convince others to come over to try PvP and FAILED. Failed badly! I don't know what other proof there is that Lurkers will make up their own minds...

Of course, the background to this discussion is that Bolty and I have had both public and private exchanges on this issue.  I even begged Bolty to stop posting some of his more scathing commentaries, because I felt that it was interfering the in the creation of a possible vibrant Lurker PvP on-line guild on Tichondrius.  This is an old argument.  Bolty thinks he was just writing what he saw and that people just went to where they would have gone anyway.  I think that there were several players who were on the fence but who were so burned by Diablo II's "PvP" that they chose to go to Stormrage when Bolty confirmed their worst fears.  No amount of "Bolty's not telling you the whole story" reponses were going to overcome that, especially when Bolty kept going on-and-on and told in endless detail about that mage who terrorized him in Redridge.  People make decisions like these based on emotion and gut-feeling, and the moment I and others came back with, "Well, yeah, that can happen, but..." the game was over, no matter how much we described how you can avoid the gankings, how you could use teamwork to help you, how much fun PvP in WoW is, how the PvP aspect adds an extra sense of thrill and excitement to what otherwise would be another collection quest or farming run, and how PvP creates a much stronger sence of community and comraderie among players in your faction.[right][snapback]88251[/snapback][/right]

You're playing revisionist history. My posts are still there, go find them. You'll note that I state everything you just wrote about community, comraderie, and the thrill of PvP. You recall my accounts of the gankfests in Redridge Mountains - do you recall my accounts of the joy I felt when I turned the tables and smacked down a ganker 6 levels above me on the Shimmering Flats? I used that a few times as an example of the fun to be had. You can be ganked - but nothing's more fun than plastering a ganker.

Read the posts again - I'll even make it easy for you - I outlined pros and cons. And I came up with PvE as a better server choice, especially with a total lack of honor system at release.

These posts started to become more vehemently opposed to PvP as words like "carebear" started to appear here. It was reciprocal. If you want to put down people who don't prefer to have their gameplay dictated to them by other players, then expect them to respond explaining why your choice of gameplay is inferior. Who fired first? I'm not sure, but it escalated fast.

It never ends...your grudge against me will be eternal, I think.

-Bolty

[Brista]

You won't sway him.
[right][snapback]88277[/snapback][/right]

Probably true but I bet I can make him laugh:

http://www.elerion.net/pvppve.html

[Mirajj]

I started this thread with the assumption that there was a Lurker guild on Tich.  Obviously I was wrong. I am looking for the following:
1. PvP server
2. Lurkers
3. The Horde
4. Moderate size guild
5. Guildies on in the daytime (USA daytime)
6. New guild members welcomed
7. All current guildies are not level 55-60

I would appreciate it if any Lurkers would respond to this post if their guild meets most of these criteria.
[right][snapback]88252[/snapback][/right]

I'll take a shot at this. It still sounds like Tich is your server, but with The Basin. It seems to me that they'd fit all requirements except the "moderate size guild" as I do believe they are the "large size guild" over there.

[vor_lord]

I started this thread with the assumption that there was a Lurker guild on Tich.  Obviously I was wrong. I am looking for the following:
1. PvP server
2. Lurkers
3. The Horde
4. Moderate size guild
5. Guildies on in the daytime (USA daytime)
6. New guild members welcomed
7. All current guildies are not level 55-60

[right][snapback]88252[/snapback][/right]

The Basin has been very open to Lurkers wanting to join them as community members. However, I just left the Basin with my neglected shaman on Tich as they really need the space. Tonight there were 488 total guild members (487 now), and I believe there is a limit of 500. They've asked that only actively played characters be in the guild. So I believe moderate size would be inaccurate for them.

I hope I'll be able to go back to Tich and repay the kindness of the Basin by actually leveling to an interesting level. But it seems there will not be a spot soon.

To give you a single data point for a holiday Monday late afternoon/early evening: 45 people online, 39 of them level 60.

I'm afraid there just isn't a place that fits everything on your list... with a possible exception of European servers (should be easy to find people on during USA daytime :P )

[Boutros]

The Basin has been very open to Lurkers wanting to join them as community members.  However, I just left the Basin with my neglected shaman on Tich as they really need the space.  Tonight there were 488 total guild members (487 now), and I believe there is a limit of 500.  They've asked that only actively played characters be in the guild.  So I believe moderate size would be inaccurate for them.

I hope I'll be able to go back to Tich and repay the kindness of the Basin by actually leveling to an interesting level.  But it seems there will not be a spot soon.

To give you a single data point for a holiday Monday late afternoon/early evening:  45 people online, 39 of them level 60.

I'm afraid there just isn't a place that fits everything on your list... with a possible exception of European servers (should be easy to find people on during USA daytime :P )
[right][snapback]88333[/snapback][/right]

A huge fraction of the 500 characters in the guild at any time are alts. Since the admins want to keep under 500, they periodically /gkick the characters that haven't been played in a couple of months. It really doesn't have anything to do with level or whether it is an alt. If you have been pruned because of inactivity just message an officer in game and they will put you back in. Really, I'm not sure The Basin is really that huge, we normally have around 70 people on concurrently during primetime on friday/saturday/sunday, but that's spread out among a large range of levels, since many people spend more time leveling their alts nowadays then they do playing their mains.

[Artega]

MJ everyone except you thinks carebear is offensive. I'm a pvper and I still think carebear is offensive

The fact that it's common has no bearing on its force. "Noob" is common and offensive. So (in a gaming context) is "gay"

If it's the typing that's the concern, just use PvEer which is shorter than carebear anyway
[right][snapback]88255[/snapback][/right]

I don't. Then again, I'm a total PvP whore and have thrown carebear around frequently. We already went through this when I threw the Dreaded Word™ around a month or two ago. You would have thought people would have noticed and possibly learned something about throwing might-be-insults around indiscriminately.

Anyway, if you're moving from an OMGCAREBEAR server to an ZOMGGANKED server, get used to seeing the Spirit Healer. You'll be fighting a mob or group of mobs, a fight that strained you to your very best, using all of your timers and your entire bag of tricks, and there will be an Alliance or Horde <expletive deleted> ready to kill you moments before you kill your target(s). You will have the objective of your escort quests killed. Repeatedly. You will be camped. You will be spit on and laughed at.

But you will be able to turn the tables on a would-be ganker possibly many levels higher than you, either killing him yourself or forcing him into a situation ending in his or her demise. You will have the opportunity to join a group of your enraged comrades in purging the ideologically-opposed filth from YOUR zone.

Get used to using duct tape to keep your keyboard and mice in working condition. Consider replacing wireless mice and keyboards with wired counterparts, preferably nailed to your desk. You will scream, you will rant, and you will quite possibly want to physically hurt someone or something at some point in your PvP career. But I've yet to find a more enjoyable facet of WoW than by grouping up with complete (albeit similarly enraged) strangers in a band of unholy death, cleansing MY zone of the genetically-impure Alliance scum.

So, I leave you with this:

YMMV.

[Arnulf]

Get used to using duct tape to keep your keyboard and mice in working condition.&nbsp; Consider replacing wireless mice and keyboards with wired counterparts, preferably nailed to your desk.&nbsp; You will scream, you will rant, and you will quite possibly want to physically hurt someone or something at some point in your PvP career.&nbsp; But I've yet to find a more enjoyable facet of WoW than by grouping up with complete (albeit similarly enraged) strangers in a band of unholy death, cleansing MY zone of the genetically-impure Alliance scum.
[right][snapback]88345[/snapback][/right]

/chuckle

It's funny. I'm playing my one and only char on a PvP server. He's 60 now longer than it took me to get him to 60 in the first place.

I was often angered. Enraged? Well, not that. Sometimes it's really unfair what the other side did to me, to us as a group.

But in hindsight I have to admit it makes the game more fun and interesting than without. Killing X mobs for the purpose of collecting Y items is much more fun if you know that every moment you could be interrupted. And satisfying when you did it while competition was around. Lethal competition.

By the way I'm not a good PvPer. I get crushed regularly when playing alone. But as part of a group I can contribute to some honourable kills. ;)

-Arnulf

[TheLuminaire]

I don't.&nbsp; Then again, I'm a total PvP whore and have thrown carebear around frequently.&nbsp; We already went through this when I threw the Dreaded Word™ around a month or two ago.&nbsp; You would have thought people would have noticed and possibly learned something about throwing might-be-insults around indiscriminately.

Anyway, if you're moving from an OMGCAREBEAR server to an ZOMGGANKED server, get used to seeing the Spirit Healer.&nbsp; You'll be fighting a mob or group of mobs, a fight that strained you to your very best, using all of your timers and your entire bag of tricks, and there will be an Alliance or Horde <expletive deleted> ready to kill you moments before you kill your target(s).&nbsp; You will have the objective of your escort quests killed.&nbsp; Repeatedly.&nbsp; You will be camped.&nbsp; You will be spit on and laughed at.

But you will be able to turn the tables on a would-be ganker possibly many levels higher than you, either killing him yourself or forcing him into a situation ending in his or her demise.&nbsp; You will have the opportunity to join a group of your enraged comrades in purging the ideologically-opposed filth from YOUR zone.

Get used to using duct tape to keep your keyboard and mice in working condition.&nbsp; Consider replacing wireless mice and keyboards with wired counterparts, preferably nailed to your desk.&nbsp; You will scream, you will rant, and you will quite possibly want to physically hurt someone or something at some point in your PvP career.&nbsp; But I've yet to find a more enjoyable facet of WoW than by grouping up with complete (albeit similarly enraged) strangers in a band of unholy death, cleansing MY zone of the genetically-impure Alliance scum.

So, I leave you with this:

YMMV.
[right][snapback]88345[/snapback][/right]

My thoughts exactly. I've never had any dissolusions about PvP in that respect. If you don't like being hounded, don't play there. And if you don't like being offended, or humiliated, definately shouldn't play there. Just comes with the territory. :)

[Andrew the Legit Single-Player]

MJ everyone except you thinks carebear is offensive. [right][snapback]88255[/snapback][/right]

Not everyone. I am a strict PvE player by choice and I wear the term
"carebear" like a badge of honor.

Then again, you can tell by my sig that I'm not often found in
online environments...

[Olon97]

When the game came out, I wanted to play horde. The main lurker critical mass appeared to be Alliance, so I went to Tich and guilded up my toons with the Basin tag. Appropriate considering when the LL went down for a week (a long time ago), I registered at the Basin to get my D2 technical discussion fill. I've considered both places home ever since.

Boutros, MJ, and I are the main self-avowed Lurkers on Tich (that I know of offhand), although plenty of the tich Basin (and SR Basin) lurk here. I work during the day, but I've got a few alts I'm going to be working on for significant chunks of time on the weekends.

My primary toon has 12,181 lifetime kills (~98% from a 4-week AV stint), but I still consider myself more of a carebear type who tolerates the occasional outdoor non-consentual play interruptions as a cost of playing the faction I want with my friends. I still let far more alliance toons go on their way (occasionally giving them the advantage of the first strike) than I initiate combat. I wasn't terribly good at PvP in the beginning, and would say BGs and assisting horde in battles already under way (got tired of being shamed by people saying "so... you like to watch eh?") has developed my PvP ability to "passable".

In hindsight, I have 0 regrets of being on a PvP server. I haven't always been comfortable, and certainly wasn't always safe, but the PvP element spiced things up a lot. Some of my favorite moments have been the non-verbal communication I've had with Alliance players - when someone dances with you or helps you by peeling an add you obviously couldn't handle, when the expectation is that they are expected to put a knife in your back... not sure how to put it...

In an environment designed to glorify the basest elements of human nature, I have encountered the closest equivalents of genuine human kindness and that I've seen in any multiplayer game to date. Those precious moments were worth all the jaunts back from my buddy, Mr. Spirit healer. :wub:

[DarkCrown]

&nbsp; Yes, I do honestly believe that more people would have tried out a PvP server and found that they enjoyed the experience had you not written what you had.

[right][snapback]88213[/snapback][/right]

I'd have to agree with this. I was not able to get into the beta. This site had always been my first source for D2 info, so it became my main source for WoW info. Bolty's writeup convinced me that I wouldn't enjoy pvp, and I ended up on a pve server.

Recently my son and I made alts on Tichondrius, and I've discovered that pvp is a blast. I have done some grumbling about pointless ganking, but the pvp environment makes even the most boring quest (think centaurs in Desolace) exciting.

I wish now that I had tried both types of servers for myself before running a toon to 60 on a pve server.

-DC

[vor_lord]

I'd have to agree with this. I was not able to get into the beta. This site had always been my first source for D2 info, so it became my main source for WoW info. Bolty's writeup convinced me that I wouldn't enjoy pvp, and I ended up on a pve server.

I wish now that I had tried both types of servers for myself before running a toon to 60 on a pve server.

-DC
[right][snapback]88597[/snapback][/right]

/signed

I can't say that without Bolty's writeup I would definitely have been on PvP as there was a whole group of us making the decision.

But in the same way that I don't think Bolty can say he didn't have influence, I can't say that I had no influence on our group with respect to PvE vs PvP.

I can say that the part of the writeup I'm most dissappointed in was the promise that Battlegrounds on PvE servers would give you all the PvP you want. I just find random encounters to be more fun. Playing BG (not that I have done it much) seems like a FPS to me -- entertaining and fun, but doesn't raise the heart rate like random encounter PvP.

[Pesmerga]

I can say that the part of the writeup I'm most dissappointed in was the promise that Battlegrounds on PvE servers would give you all the PvP you want.&nbsp; I just find random encounters to be more fun.&nbsp; Playing BG (not that I have done it much) seems like a FPS to me -- entertaining and fun, but doesn't raise the heart rate like random encounter PvP.
[right][snapback]88608[/snapback][/right]

I stayed away from PvP, not because of Bolty's article, but because I wasn't ready for it. I wanted to experience the quests without having to worry about other players. Now that I have, I think I'm good to go on a PvP server. I know that my random encounters on Stormrage (stupid guards at the top of that lift....) have made me jump, and my heart raced a little. I have a level 20 rogue on Dethecus, and after I get my alts in order, I plan on taking her out and playing a little more.

I don't doubt that what Bolty said influenced some people, but I also don't doubt that people also weighed their own experiences and preferences as well.

::shrugs:: my random 2 pennies.

[Mirajj]

I have enjoyed every single PvP experience I've had on Stormrage so far, bar one. The one time I was ganked. I do very much so enjoy PvP, but don't (still/always?) enjoy being ganked. The server choice for me was snap.

[Zippyy]

I'm going to come out and admit that it was Bolty's opinion that swayed me to Stormrage. Also, it seemed that more lurkers and more of my old friends were going to Stormrage for whatever reason. When I finally got the game, installed it, and was at the server select screen, it was Bolty's article that made my choice for me. Mind control, I tell you!

Seriously though, I don't regret it at all. The only slight wish I have is that we had organized ourselves on a pvp server. I think that would have fostered an even greater sense of kinship and cohesion than we already have.

The Stormrage guild is extremely vibrant and exciting, even more so with the trips to MC and Onyxia and BWL on the distant horizon. But part of me still wishes there were such a large pvp and/or horde beast. Stormrage is still my home, but I do hop over to Tich once in a blue moon. I think it's just an urge to try something new.

These are just my thoughts. I don't know how much anyone else was influenced by Bolty's pvp rants, but I supposing the huge presence on Stormrage is a direct result, I don't think it's an entirely bad thing. Perhaps we would have been even more scattered were it not for those articles? I don't know. I commend Mongo for sticking to his pvp guns even at the cost of being secluded from many lurkers, and I'm glad to have him hop over to Stormrage to try and take over the world.

I hope there aren't any hard feelings. I think everything has turned out fine. The SR Lurkers have a great alliance and are making great progress in Molten Core, and Mongo has his very own guild on Tich aptly named The Core, who are up to much the same machinations as the Avarice Alliance. Let us eat cake!

[Occhidiangela]

When the game came out, I wanted to play horde. The main lurker critical mass appeared to be Alliance, so I went to Tich and guilded up my toons with the Basin tag. Appropriate considering when the LL went down for a week (a long time ago), I registered at the Basin to get my D2 technical discussion fill. I've considered both places home ever since.

Boutros, MJ, and I are the main self-avowed Lurkers on Tich (that I know of offhand), although plenty of the tich Basin (and SR Basin) lurk here. I work during the day, but I've got a few alts I'm going to be working on for significant chunks of time on the weekends.

My primary toon has 12,181 lifetime kills (~98% from a 4-week AV stint), but I still consider myself more of a carebear type who tolerates the occasional outdoor non-consentual play interruptions as a cost of playing the faction I want with my friends. I still let far more alliance toons go on their way (occasionally giving them the advantage of the first strike) than I initiate combat. I wasn't terribly good at PvP in the beginning, and would say BGs and assisting horde in battles already under way (got tired of being shamed by people saying "so... you like to watch eh?") has developed my PvP ability to "passable".

In hindsight, I have 0 regrets of being on a PvP server. I haven't always been comfortable, and certainly wasn't always safe, but the PvP element spiced things up a lot. Some of my favorite moments have been the non-verbal communication I've had with Alliance players - when someone dances with you or helps you by peeling an add you obviously couldn't handle, when the expectation is that they are expected to put a knife in your back... not sure how to put it...

In an environment designed to glorify the basest elements of human nature, I have encountered the closest equivalents of genuine human kindness and that I've seen in any multiplayer game to date. Those precious moments were worth all the jaunts back from my buddy, Mr. Spirit healer.&nbsp; :wub:
[right][snapback]88461[/snapback][/right]

Hi

I started a Troll Hunter on Tich. By level 6, which was when server lag began to manifest itself on a number of servers, I found the interface, the pace of play, and the game to be . . . not clicking. I was also never on when other Lurkers were on.

Chalk up another casualty to "death by disinterest."

My son is enjoying Alleria, just made 40 with his Night Elf Druid, otherwise the game would be off my machine completely.

Occhi

[Arnath]

We are one of the biggest guilds on the server, and have plenty of people from all timezones, so there wouldn't be a lack of people at any time really. As far as what it's like being on a PvP server, it really depends a lot on your mentality. I see people on Tich who get super pissed whenever they get killed by a 60 or get "corpse camped" (which is usually just getting killed 3-4 times in a questing area, not a dedicated corpse camp).&nbsp; If you think that could be you then maybe a PvP server isn't for you. But if you like the added danger and excitement of random PvP while you are questing or grinding then a PvP server is loads of fun. Plus you can be the one doing the lame ganking, which many people are known to enjoy.
[right][snapback]88107[/snapback][/right]

I quit WoW around May but am considering buying back my account. Having played on a PvE server my first time, I wanted to see what PvP servers were like and was wondering if The Basin on Tich had space and what would be involved in joining. Thanks.

Arnath

[LavCat]

I quit WoW around May but am considering buying back my account. Having played on a PvE server my first time, I wanted to see what PvP servers were like and was wondering if The Basin on Tich had space and what would be involved in joining. Thanks.

Arnath
[right][snapback]95597[/snapback][/right]

I still have my original lurker characters on Tichondrius, but I seldom play them. The problem is not PvP but rather:

1.) I don't like the looks of current horde races. (Blizzard could have done a better job with cows, even if the shaman is quite interesting.)

2.) I never found any lurkers that were willing to group with me. Worse than on Stormrage. And having just checked I seem to have been thrown out of the guild.


Edit: It seems that only one of my characters is not in the guild.