Attendance & Burnout

[Alrin]

edit:
Sigh. I am tired.
I don't know man, everything I try to do in the last month that has been avarice related seemes to turn to #$%& as soon as I attempted to do it.
My initial post in this thread was meant to emphasize that Basiners (in general) were "newer" to big raiding and could use more practice that is all.
Things spiralled out of control. I posted when I shouldn't have. Tired. Too late. Too hurt. Too sad. Too frustrated with seeing things turn to crap when I didn't mean them to.

I screwed up, okay?
And I realize it wasn't fair to try and blame things solely on a group of people.
I apologize for that.
And I also apologize to anyone that I offended in this thread. I am sorry.
Probably won't do me any good, will most likely be on peoples /ignore anyway but I do apologize.

Anyway, /sigh.

:(

[Tal]

*Quoted post removed at the request of the author*

Somehow I knew I should have talked with Darian and Tuftears before I took this weekend off to go camping. But during the night it kept nagging me so I fired up the laptop and the wireless connection to check in on things.

I haven't had any coffee yet as the coffee maker is so antiquated that its still on brewing a half an hour later and has 3/4 of a pot left to brew. Please be patient with me if I ramble a bit.

First off it would be prudent if everyone took a deep breath and thought before replying. Things are getting heated and personal that don't need to be.

Secondly it appears to me that you logged in yesterday with a chip on your shoulder about the avarice alliance and the Basin in particular. I'm not certain what set your teeth on edge abot us yesterday since you haven't raided with us in a while but it was completely uncalled for.

If I recall correctly you levelled the following accusations at the Basin in general:

1. That there were tanks that showed up, won loot, and haven't been back since. I will agree with this to a degree but will also point out that there are Lurkers who raid only casually as there are with Carpe Aurum folks. The new point system will help alleviate this.

2. That the Basin did not possess the discipline to raid as they talk on TS, don't always follow orders, etc. Again this charge can be levelled at the Lurkers and CA as well. We're working on that as well by assigning class leaders to assist with that. I have developed macros that order TS to be cleared so that the raid leaders can speak. It won't be the perfect solution but it will help until folks learn Molten Core better.

You then went on to say that you preferred raiding with Critical Mass because they were professional, knew how to raid, and did not have any drama queens. Well they should be professional and know how to raid. They've a hardcore raiding guild filled with quality folks who have their eyes on the same prize. The Avarice Alliance is a herd of cats who happen to raid occassionally in Molten Core and other places. As to drama queens, well, to be honest you have a flair for the dramatic yourself. ;)

As I stated in /ga yesterday we could have kept the discussion even headed and constructive. Since then things have been blown out of proportion. If folks think before they type and remember that we're friends here it could still be a constructive discussion.

Personally I'm happy for you that you've found what you're looking for with CM. I hate that it means Telsak can't raid with us anymore but I do wish you the best with CM.

Note to all - lets keep this civil or I'll be forced to lock this down. *points to Bolty* Especially you. ;) :w00t: :lol:

[Tuftears]

Thanks, Alrin, for the apology - I appreciate it!

I think we are (all) getting better with raid discipline. Last week's Saturday ZG run was horrible - this week's Saturday ZG run was the finest that we've had, taking down Jeklik, Venoxis, and Mandokir without a wipe, and the two wipes on Jin'do were because we were all (edited: mostly) new to the fight.

Hopefully we'll be able to get everything else straightened out and get back to some good quality 40-man raiding soon!

[TheDragoon]

...and the two wipes on Jin'do were because we were all (edited: mostly) new to the fight.
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That looks like it will be a really fun fight once we get it down. Our first attempt was pretty decent until the spirits rampaged out of control. The second was a bit less so since the main tank died mid-way through and the boss is immune to taunt. :)

Overall, it was a really fun run. Hopefully we can have more like it in the future!

[Zippyy]

That looks like it will be a really fun fight once we get it down.  Our first attempt was pretty decent until the spirits rampaged out of control.  The second was a bit less so since the main tank died mid-way through and the boss is immune to taunt.  :)

Overall, it was a really fun run.  Hopefully we can have more like it in the future!
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I had a lot of fun on today's ZG run too. It was amazingly smooth and we had a great group of folks.

I see a bright future ahead! :D

[anadrol]

It just seems the bigger we collectively get the smaller our raid groups have become.  Are we burned out?  I think we need to have a collective discussion about how we are going to keep this fun, and not drive ourselves insane, or anymore insane. :D

Where is that group a stalwart adventurers who attempted Major Domo a few weeks ago?  If it is too grueling to do it the way we have been, maybe we can change it. 

For me, I really really really want to get us to Major Domo every week, and someday Ragnaros.  I think in order to do that we are going to either have to raid MC more nights, or when we do raid take down more bosses.

I know many of us have thoughts on this.  Discuss.  Let's keep it civil.
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The problem is inconsistancy in my opinion, we need at least 30 solid people who ALWAYS come and know MC to speed things up in there. Without gear/knowledge it will take longer to get all the people cycling in and out on random raids up to speed. Lacking classes like healers/tanks/warlocks on certain nights sucks, and on one night we had 26 run through mc CLEANING UP TRASH.

If people dont show up on a regular basis and stay dedicated even if its a round robin of 50 people then we simply dont progress without longer raid times period imo.

monday and the thursday before that illustrate my point. We had lots of veterans and about 10 new folks monday, boom gehennas down in 2 1/2 hours!

Flip side only 26 show up just a few days earlier and we can only clear TRASH MOBS. with all the people that we have we should be filling out 40s consistantly with a waiting list.

Just step back, and think about that for a bit, thats right, this was a one week period , hell the next week we took out onyxia with 36, and some new folks there as well.

We basically kick ass but need to be more consistant in my opinion, this break can give us time to reflect on this.

[anadrol]

Thank you, Darian.  I simply didn't post last night because I didn't think I could be civil.  You said, basically, what I wanted to say.
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GAWD this is so dumb, can we just log the #$%& in and kick some MC ass?

[anadrol]

Was this your intention? Your basis is off simply because you accuse The Basin of doing things that many from CA and Lurkers have also done. So unless you're that out of touch with reality that you can shift blame completely to your former guild tag, you're looking for something else.

And since you were the first one to bring it up - when you left MJ and went to CM, you were really lost to begin with to us. They raid when we raid. Would you ever have chosen us over them? I certainly understand your desire for that high-end raiding group that is more active. But there's many different ways to handle the situation.

You could play it like Skandranon, and simply be on your alts when you want to. You could play it like mjdoom, and help us out when you have the chance.

You could play it like Vale with vague promises that obviously were never meant to be kept. You could play it to make it seem like its completely our fault, try to make yourself feel guilt free. If you burn the bridge, there's really no regret in your head when you're in BWL while we're fighting in MC, is there? Of course, this is your 2nd burning bridge, isn't it?
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Look, i have no problem with Alrin being straight up, but i'll be honest after hitting a few raids with CM on ewber, they are nothing special. The difference is that they show up every raid and are consistant and have been raiding for a few months longer than us. We will get there if we show up and it will just take longer if we cycle like half the raid force in and out every week. They have differnet problems, and those problem are related to people just becoming disenfranchised with the end game, and quitting the game entirely. We can and will focus on improving discipline while still having a fun time, and without REQUIRING anyone to have to log in or else. Once you reach the last boss in bwl and everyone is geared out what do you have? You have friendship and good times with your friends or you have an empty hole and quit because the loot is gone. Alrin I hope that if you feel the urge to raid with some folks who care about you you will come help us. I love hangin with telsak and kickin' hound ass. Perhaps after taking a break we will see you in meat when you wanna swing on by dude. All the best I hope you find the excitement, fun, and stress free gaming your looking for.
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[Skandranon]

Look, i have no problem with Alrin being straight up, but i'll be honest after hitting a few raids with CM on ewber, they are nothing special.
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I know and recognize the great talent and capable players in CA and Lurkers, Anadrol. With all due respect, I don't feel the need to disparage Avarice's players to make myself feel better about Critical Mass' accomplishments. I ask that you extend the same courtesy. With the downing of Flamegor tonight, Critical Mass now shares the honour of being the most progressed guild on the server with DaKor. I personally think that's "something special", and I'd appreciate if you found a better way to rally your troops.

As for the subject of this thread, I agree that you are not lacking in numbers or skill, two things that hold down many other guilds that try to go end-game. From what I can tell, the only problem is motivation, and to that, I can only say: keep on keeping on. Your progress through Molten Core has been nothing short of phenomenal, and it's a shame that the feat of clearing up to Domo only happened once. If people are getting burned out, schedule fewer raids. Keep the game fun.

Perhaps you have minor dramatic issues, but so do all guilds. I myself saw one the night I raided with you guys and it seemed to be resolved amicably, which was a good sign. You do things differently than some other guilds out there, but that isn't to say that the way you do them is wrong. You've got good leadership; good people who know when something's not going well and who are willing to do the work to find a solution. Few could ask for anything more. All in all, things are looking up for Avarice. Just find the motivation. Great things lie ahead.

[Darian]

With all due respect, Skan... I think you totally missed the point he was making, and if I didn't know you better I'd suspect you took offense and stopped reading the moment you saw the first period.

It wasn't boosting the troops by tearing down CM, but boosting the troops by pointing out there's no reason we can't get it together and be as good as CM. What I took him to mean by "nothing special" is simply that CM players do not somehow outclass Avarice players across the board in terms of skill; the main difference is reduced to motivation and dedication (and, to a certain extent stemming from that, organization), nothing more.

[Kevin]

With all due respect, Skan... I think you totally missed the point he was making, and if I didn't know you better I'd suspect you took offense and stopped reading the moment you saw the first period.

It wasn't boosting the troops by tearing down CM, but boosting the troops by pointing out there's no reason we can't get it together and be as good as CM.  What I took him to mean by "nothing special" is simply that CM players do not somehow outclass Avarice players across the board in terms of skill; the main difference is reduced to motivation and dedication (and, to a certain extent stemming from that, organization), nothing more.
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I think Skan did get it. To me he's saying that CM is special simply because they have gotten farther than all but one other group. When he said that we do have excellent players, leaders and progress later on it seemed to me he got the point. I can see how calling a group of people that have done what only 40 or so others on the server has done nothing special as somewhat insulting. So I'm just saying this now before things go bad. As Darian said I don't think anyone thinks that either Anadrol or Skan was trying to or meant to insult anyone. Things may just not have been worded the best. And yeah I shouldn't let my habit of trying to see from the others point of view put words in someone else's mouth but I really do think both sides were trying to say that avarice can do this.

Anyway, one of avarices weaknesses is also one of our strengths. I do believe that we will be able to do what Critical Mass has done. However we are trying to do the amazing thing of being a group of everything for everyone. We have people that would like to raid every night that are holding back to help out others and be fair to people that only want to raid 1 or 2 nights a week at most and do other things. We have people that are raiding a little more than they might like to to be fair and friendly to those who want to raid every night of the week. The fact that we so far have succeeded pretty well in doing this is amazing. People have rearranged schedules a bit to be on the raids we do set-up.

So what do I ask of avarice members? Well if you do enjoy the raids, and with the loot system going into place and a more consistent pool of players and a better sign up system and a bit more structure getting done, please try to be there. If you are happy raiding 3 or 4 nights a week please give us another week or so of time (I'm not asking for months here) without jumping ship to another guild. If you are in multiple guilds with multiple 60's but still want to hang with this group talk to us. We'll get our strategies posted soon so that new people can not come in cold this will help with some of the slow downs we have had. I want to get back to Majordomo and we can do it with 3 raids a week if people show up, as was mentioned. I understand if you prefer leveling an alt, just look at my sig and that doesn't even have all my characters in it, or playing on another server. Just keep trying for another week or two.

Let the past sit in the past. If you had a beef with someone over something try to let it go. Let the new structure and organization get in place and see if that helps out.

I believe we can be a successful mostly casual raiding group. I think we can succeed even if we have only 10 people there every night with 30 others shuffling through. We need different organization and structure than we had been using and we are trying to fix that but well this is a game and none of the leaders are going to take time for work, or health recovery, or completely eliminate our fun as well to try and get all this done, so yeah it's taken us a long time. This is a game, have fun with it. If avarice has not been fun for you lately all I'm asking for is one more raid cycle and a little understanding that we are trying to high end raid without that being the only or even main focus of this group. Realize that if we pull that off we'll be a pretty small group that has managed to do that as well. Just like Critical Mass and DaKor are pretty special for getting as far as they have, think about how special a group of 80 - 100 people that some nights want to play an alt over going on a 40 man raid or want to play on a PvPRP server or want to PvP instead of raid are. A group that can make progress with 20 people brand new to Molten Core and can keep most of those people happy most of the time.

[Skandranon]

With all due respect, Skan... I think you totally missed the point he was making, and if I didn't know you better I'd suspect you took offense and stopped reading the moment you saw the first period.
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Except that it was really the second part of the post that offended me. Though I was pretty sure it wasn't intended, it implied CM had oppressive logon requirements (we don't) that we aren't friends with each other (we are), that we care only about loot (we don't) and that we don't care about each other (we do). We aren't a giant scary monolith, you know.

Also, talking about CM's problems when he attended just two raids which were nearly one-third applicants is simply something I don't think should be brought up. Yeah, I talk about Avarice's problems, but then again, I've been a Lurker for nearly a year now (yes, I think I still am, even if my main wears a different tag).

[anadrol]

With all due respect, Skan... I think you totally missed the point he was making, and if I didn't know you better I'd suspect you took offense and stopped reading the moment you saw the first period.

It wasn't boosting the troops by tearing down CM, but boosting the troops by pointing out there's no reason we can't get it together and be as good as CM.  What I took him to mean by "nothing special" is simply that CM players do not somehow outclass Avarice players across the board in terms of skill; the main difference is reduced to motivation and dedication (and, to a certain extent stemming from that, organization), nothing more.
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Darian is corect, i was merely trying to say that CM is a set of players just like we are, and that we could reach those levels with effort and consistancy, sorry if that came out the wrong way apologies. Every guild or group of folks has problems that they deal with in different ways. Thank you for the kind things that you said about avarice btw preciate that.

[anadrol]

Except that it was really the second part of the post that offended me.  Though I was pretty sure it wasn't intended, it implied CM had oppressive logon requirements (we don't) that we aren't friends with each other (we are), that we care only about loot (we don't) and that we don't care about each other (we do).  We aren't a giant scary monolith, you know.

Also, talking about CM's problems when he attended just two raids which were nearly one-third applicants is simply something I don't think should be brought up.  Yeah, I talk about Avarice's problems, but then again, I've been a Lurker for nearly a year now (yes, I think I still am, even if my main wears a different tag).
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Not intended.

[LochnarITB]

Flip side only 26 show up just a few days earlier and we can only clear TRASH MOBS.
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This seemed the best place to make this point.

Random chance can be a funny thing. We don't ask for a "note from your doctor" when someone misses a raid. When people don't sign up for a night or even sign up but then don't show, it can be a case where RL has jumped up and bitten them. Even though random chance would seem to even this out, it is entirely possible that it happens to a large part of our core on the same night. I would be far more concerned when a trend shows over days and weeks than I am about one or two nights when we couldn't muster a raidable crew.

In my case, the night that ended up being trash mobs was the first of two days I was without power due to storms. My biggest concern, when the first full day came around, was that I was sitting in the dark and Avarice was having fun in MC. It could very well be that several people also had RL nipping at their heals. I don't think there was a raid Monday night but, if there was, I also missed that because I found myself laying in the hospital. I would venture to say that I am as devoted to our progression as pretty much any Avarice member and have the least expected RL interference so, if it can happen that my attendance is prevented by RL, it can be expected that it will happen to most other members.

So, wandering back to my point, we have a good core crew that do their best to be there for scheduled raids. I don't think we really need to be that concerned yet. We need to have the loot system up and running, to let people know what to expect, and get our schedule back in place and I think we will hit the ground running.

[anadrol]

This seemed the best place to make this point.

Random chance can be a funny thing.  We don't ask for a "note from your doctor" when someone misses a raid.  When people don't sign up for a night or even sign up but then don't show, it can be a case where RL has jumped up and bitten them.  Even though random chance would seem to even this out, it is entirely possible that it happens to a large part of our core on the same night.  I would be far more concerned when a trend shows over days and weeks than I am about one or two nights when we couldn't muster a raidable crew.

In my case, the night that ended up being trash mobs was the first of two days I was without power due to storms.  My biggest concern, when the first full day came around, was that I was sitting in the dark and Avarice was having fun in MC.  It could very well be that several people also had RL nipping at their heals.  I don't think there was a raid Monday night but, if there was, I also missed that because I found myself laying in the hospital.  I would venture to say that I am as devoted to our progression as pretty much any Avarice member and have the least expected RL interference so, if it can happen that my attendance is prevented by RL, it can be expected that it will happen to most other members.

So, wandering back to my point, we have a good core crew that do their best to be there for scheduled raids.  I don't think we really need to be that concerned yet.  We need to have the loot system up and running, to let people know what to expect, and get our schedule back in place and I think we will hit the ground running.
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Looking back on that post its funny that some MC mobs are trash now, lol. Yeah I know rl gets in the way, thats why i think signups and keeping within communication is important on the sites we have. I have been enjoying our zulgrub runs allot lately they are a blast!