Patch Notes for "The Burning Crusade"?

[Tal]

wow... I would have thought most lurkers could look past the textures on a computer character.

Personally, I hope they don't implement blood elves on horde.  There are certain perks the horde enjoys because the people who have to be 'pretty' and 'good' clog the alliance side on normal servers.
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Wow. Thanks for the slap Concillian. I've tried playing Tauren, Orc, Troll and Undead on the Horde side in Beta and in retail and just couldn't make the connection with the characters enough to like playing them. Aesthetics are part of my enjoyment of the game - I shouldn't have to worry about being judged because of it.

[Lissa]

wow... I would have thought most lurkers could look past the textures on a computer character.

Personally, I hope they don't implement blood elves on horde.  There are certain perks the horde enjoys because the people who have to be 'pretty' and 'good' clog the alliance side on normal servers.
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For me, it has nothing to do with looks (as the only races I refuse to play are Dwarves and Gnomes due to the LoS issues with these two races), but numbers of players. When Lurkers first started into retail, the choice was Alliance on Stormrage (PvE) or Horde on Tichondrius (PvP). I personally don't like looking over my shoulder every 5 minutes wondering if someone is going to gank me while I'm trying to level, to me this is not fun, so I pretty much stuck to Stormrage.

The main reason I continue to stick with Stormrage is the number of players we have between Lurkers, Carpe Aurum, Basin, House Harpell, and Keepers of the Cheese. We have enough people there to be able to raid on a consistent basis which is not available on Terenas nor Twisting Nether and was never available on Tichondrius (reason that Mongo and die hard PvP Lurkers went to other guilds there).

Now, if the expansion comes out and people want to head over to a Horde based server with enough people, I'll switch and will have an Orc Warrior, a Tauren Druid, a Troll Rogue, and then have a Shaman, Mage, Warlock, Hunter, and Priest of whatever race strikes my fancy at the time I choose to make those (most likely the Shaman would be Tauren, Mage would be Troll, and not sure on the other three).

[Concillian]

I'm probably just as bad for having an issue with it. It shouldn't bother me, but it does.

[Concillian]

I didn't mean to imply that I think all people who play alliance play alliance because they need to be 'pretty' or 'good', just the fact that those who do will only play alliance seems to be the primary reason for the imbalance, at least it was based on some informal polling of partymates when I was playing alliance on Lightbringer.

[savaughn]

wow... I would have thought most lurkers could look past the textures on a computer character.
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Actually, I would expect nothing but the exact opposite.

I've been hanging around the Lounge for over five years at this point. The Lurkers have always trended towards the folks who were less interested in the power gaming side of things and more towards more experiential gaming.

This is the place where people built D2 Barbarians who used all the wrong weapons because it looked cool and tried to see how far they could go with it. This is the place where people picked and played gimped characters because they just looked really cool. There are a whole stack of Lurkers here who have entire fashion wardrobes because they not only relate heavily to their character - they very much care how they look and present themselves.

Do we have folks around here who are all about the number crunching and figuring out what works best and where's the best place to power level from 35 to 40? Yup. Do we have people who have actually spent the time swimming all the way from the Thandol Span all the way up to Revantusk Village only to jump back in the water and swim all the way around to Scarlet Watch Post just because they were curious what all those mountains looked like? Yup.

You don't have the same requirements to relate to your toon as other people, Conc? Fantastic! But the lounge has ALWAYS been filled with people who care very much about this. And hopefully it always will be. It's that variety that makes it the lounge, after all. B)

[nobbie]

If they would add Oozes or Slimes as new Alliance race, that faction ratio problem could be solved ;)

[Concillian]

Actually, I would expect nothing but the exact opposite.
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Let me explain how I see it fitting in with the Lurker mentality of old. I've been here for nearly as long as you, though probably with a longer haitus, as I didn't realize Bolty re-started the LL until whatever my current re-register date is. But I'm well aware of the roots of the Lounge.

I guess I see the mixing of the aesthetics of toons as expressing the exact same sort of attitude you describe in experimental builds for Diablo.

'alternate playstyles' in character builds for WoW are difficult to justify because you either have to solo them all the time (cutting out large portions of the game), or expose other people to your weaknesses. This was not the case in Diablo, as nobody else suffered when I played my bow-weilding Diablo II paladin in a passworded game by myself, and I could experience all the game content in doing so. In WoW you are limited in such alternate builds and sub-par equipment, as you potentially risk your entire group, and there are potential social ramifications to these ways of extracting additional enjoyment from the game. Party mates can get disgruntled with your performance because of your odd talent build, for instance. This is something that could potentially be fun for you at the expense of others kind of thing, something that I think most Lurkers are not really into. I mean you aren't going to have much success as rogue that only weilds bows in a group, even though it may be a viable way to play solo (once you get gouge).

So what's left in the 'alternate playstyle' characters? Aesthetics. I would have thought that Lurkers would be into alternate character models because of the exact same reasons you described that they might not be.

I apologize for not being able to see it from yours and Tal's (and apparently others) perspective. In my mind I equated pigeonholing your play into 'pretty' races was akin to the powergaming that you described, but on a role-playing level rather than a character build level. Clearly there are those who feel my view was the powergaming perspective.

Two interpretations of the same history. Lurker variety is alive.

We are both guilty of not realizing that there is more than one perspective on the issue.

I really do thank you for explaining your perspective more fully, as it helped me see things from a perspective I was not considering. I hope my explanation allows others to see things from a perspective they were not considering.

[Artega]

Sooooo... you're saying Lurkers like Alliance because they like looking at night elf booty...? :P

[Bird]

No hero classes? Ugh. I was really looking forward to those.

[Dozer]

No hero classes? Ugh. I was really looking forward to those.
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They have to milk as many expansions out of us as possible! :D

[Roland]

I chose Alliance for many reasons.

One of which was to be part of the "good" guys (although there are many Alliance actions in history that I apall me). I hardly ever roleplay an evil character, generally tending towards neutral good (if not outright neutral, which I must say I can roleplay quite well). Evil's ways go completely against the grain with me, on a personal level, and thus I not only fight the experience grating, but also difficult to maintain. I hardly think it fair to be chastised for projecting my personal views and values into a game-world simply because I believe so fiercely in "good" and "right" that to divulge myself of such virtues is near-impossible.

Another was because I felt a greater connection on a personal and role-playing level with more of the the Alliance than the Horde (most notably Night Elves, but Humans as well - Dwarves and Gnomes hardly interest me, even less than Orcs and Trolls; Undead a part of me despises, while another part is raptly curiously, so that's a bit of an even wash, and Tauren... well, they just don't have the appeal that Night Elves do to me, despite their own dark past). It's kind of hard for me, personally, to be roleplaying a character whom I've spent a huge portion of my gaming career loathing for no other reason than an aesthetical role-playing one. Being so enraptured in the Warcraft universe as I am, I find it a little difficult to tear myself away from centuries of warfare with the Orcs and their allies to make them a permanent resident in my repertoire of characters. Call me shallow if you must, but part of the enjoyment I get out of this game, a large part, is the immersion in the story, and for better or worse, I chose a side at the beginning of it all, and have not swayed since.

Believe it or not, the Paladin was one of the biggest reasons I wanted to play as Alliance - I had such an incredible time playing one in Beta, despite not having Talents, that I had very high hopes for them. Unfortunately, those hopes have yet to come to fruition, seeing as the Paladin is not only gimped, but pigeon-holed (to quote you) into a very one-dimensioanl role - something I loathe to no end. So, unfortunately, until such problems are rectified I am stuck Paladin-less on a side that I chose because of said character (although not entirely because of him).

Lastly, I simply can't find my place in the Horde. They are a ragtag bunch of peoples, of so varied backgrounds, cultures, and goals that I simply can't see them lasting in any strong or lengthy fashion. The Undead I see as joining them purely to further their own goals, and so they are not persecuted from ALL sides (the enemy of my enemy is my friend). The Trolls are a bunch of tribal savages, with no real order to them, and thus I cannot bring myself down to such a mental level as to truly enjoy their personnae. Likewise, Tauren joined the Horde out of favoritism for being rescued. Not in any way a bad people, they remind me mostly of the old nomadic Native Americans, which I suppose on some level I can relate to. But their ties to the Horde rest solely with the Orcs, and I find it rather unusual that they can even tolerate the existance of the Undead, let alone treat them as allies. As such, they too I cannot see coexisting as a part of the Horde for any truly lengthy deal of time, although I've no doubt their allegiance to the Orcs will remain steadfast well after the ashes of the Horde have scattered to the winds. And finally, the Orcs - a people whom I could actually respect, if not trust, if only they still followed the ways Thrall so highly spoke of during Warcraft III - that is to eschew their demonic bonds and take up their old, shamanistic ways. Being a warrior people I can accept - I have a fondness for the Vikings of old rooted deep within my being - but after WC3... I don't know. I guess it seems to me like all of WC3 was just cheap talk, and now in WoW they (and even the Alliance, too! So shameful...) seem to have no problem with their old ways, dabbling in demonic magics and warring with the Alliance without reason. It just seems too shallow an existence for me to truly feel a part of a greater whole.

You look at people playing Alliance because they are "pretty" or "good" and see it as a bad thing. I see it as people doing what they do naturally. And I note, although you may not, that not all who look to that which is "pretty" or "good" are in fact shallow beings whose sole existence must be justified by shallow goals. Take myself as a strong example of such. Looks play a part in my experience of WoW; no denying that, and no shame in admitting it. But the greatest influences for me to choose Alliance over Horde are anything but shallow, and have nothing to do with looks - they have everything to do with the Warcraft story, my immersion within it, and my personal beliefs, values, and the projection of myself into a fantasy setting (any, be it WoW, DnD, or any number of other worlds). If you can still sit back and call all that shallow, then I can say nothing more to make you understand. But if not, maybe you could take a look at all I have said, and look at all the Lurkers (the majority of which chose Alliance), and perhaps see a connection that you had up until now dismissed as something entirely different than what may truly be going on.

Just a thought.

[Drasca]

You look at people playing Alliance because they are "pretty" or "good" and see it as a bad thing[right][snapback]92920[/snapback][/right]

I too wanted to play Alliance PvE at first, but having found myself thrust in a Horde PvP server playing a sup-par PvP class no less. . . first impressions rapidly changed.

Too often people associate 'pretty' with 'good'. You trick yourself when you immerse yourself in that illusion. In story terms, the Alliance factions hold together by no greater thread than the Horde ones do. Gnomes? Unreliable, to the point of complete disappearance from WC3. Dwarves? They help, when pushed. Elves are notoriously arrogant, and Humans are the easiest to corrupt of all (Human Medivh, and Prince Arthas being the worst offenders). Alliance was good in WCI and II because they were the ones struggling in defense against a frightening enemy. Well, that enemy was cooped up, mistreated and escaped to become its own nation overseas as the alliance faltered in its 'noble' values when their lives were no longer threatened.

Note also, there is no state of war between horde and alliance. Current story wise, Horde are not the bad guys, and neither are Alliance. Warlocks seem to be the bad guys B)

Looks and first impressions color your opinion more than lore does. I sympathize a bit for wanting to 'look good', but it is false to think Alliance are the good guys. World PvP-wise, the players make who's good and evil and there are a lot of bullies around on both sides


Horde Soul
You've taken notice of the native american quality of Tauren, the noble savagery of the warrior race of Orcs. Trolls? Granted, not much about them at all, but they have a wholeheartedly amusing west-indies accent which makes them on par for all 'witch-doctor' juju fans. Undead led by Sylvannas... These are 'freed' undead, with minds of their own. Is it not better to free those bound by slavery? While they're by no means good in the traditional sense, I see our undead as antiheroes, carving a niche out of an insane world.

There is one unifying theme among the Horde factions. Freedom is new and precious. Orcs, from demonic bloodlust, Undead from the Scourge and Lich King, Tauren from annihilation on another world. Each faction's freedom is constantly under doubt. The lich king and demons of the twisting nether still loom over the horizon, and Tauren are inexorably tied to the Orcs ability to protect their own. The thirst and protection of newfound freedom resounds greatly as one interacts with Thrall, Cairn and Sylvannas. That feeling of freedom as a displaced people in a new land feels much more enriching than the Alliance who seem to have no great noble goals right now.

I've also become very enamoured with Robert E Howard's original Conan stories, and the disgust toward civilized nations. Horde is a much better option for all you noble barbarians out there who are in love with all things wild.

The belief that Alliance is good is purely aesthetic. Good looking must be good, and parts of the story support it. That first impression is made, and never explored deeper. If I had not taken an unexpected plunge, I too might've settled at just that. I've leaped into the Horde side and found the world was not so dark from the 'bad' guys. There is a savage beauty in being Orc, and nobility in Tauren when idling through their cities, running to the beat of drums in Orgrimmar, or carried forward by wind flutes in Thunder Bluff.

If you desire to go beyond first impressions, you'll discover a beauty in being Horde that goes beyond aesthetics and into the soul of the character.

For the Horde!

[Bob the Beholder]

I agree, Drasca. The things in WC3 and the Frozen Throne considered, I almost consider the Alliance the evil side. They're arrogant, xenophobic bastards who'd rather kill everything that looks like a monster than figure out if it really is. They even hate eachother most of the time!

I think it was Mongojerry who said that there was a alot of quests and storyline in the Alliance involving the various members spying on, backstabbing, doublecrossing, etc. the other factions. (I haven't played alliance past about level 36--but even in that time there was quite a bit of content emphasizing how little each faction liked having to rely on the other. I especially liked some of the night elf stuff. Bordering on "Ew, you're a gnome!" style.)

There's almost none of that on the horde side, and even what there is is basically some random guy going, "I dunno about those undead guys. You should go fetch a book about them for me."

Why is this? The alliance isn't really one faction. It's four factions that just kind of agree not to kill eachother for right now. Just like in the earlier games. After WC2 or WC1--I forget which--I remember it saying that the human king tried to keep each of the factions together, to protect eachother from further incursions by the demon-crazed orcs. Of course they don't go along with it. They're the elves/dwarves/whateverthehellelse! Why do they need anybody else!? They're SUPERIOR! So they hole up in whatever home of choice they have, they spurn everybody who helped them (note that certain notable heroes were great people, and helped whoever they could whenever they could--those are the good guys; not some random elf, just 'cause he happens to be an elf), and most of them get obliterated by the scourge. Sad, sad. :(

The horde sticks together, the horde protects its own, the horde works for the good of the horde. All of the horde. And as of Thrall taking power, the horde does not go to war with the alliance. Some of the horde doesn't like that too much, but what can you do? The warchief says it, that's how it is. And that goes for trolls, tauren, orcs... and to a certain extent undead. As much as I play the undead quite a bit (and in quest-based dialogues, such as The Warlord's Command, the dialogue options are just as horde-worthy as any other race), they're really only horde because Blizzard thought they were cool, and had to have them allied with somebody.

[Lissa]

'alternate playstyles' in character builds for WoW are difficult to justify because you either have to solo them all the time (cutting out large portions of the game), or expose other people to your weaknesses.  This was not the case in Diablo, as nobody else suffered when I played my bow-weilding Diablo II paladin in a passworded game by myself, and I could experience all the game content in doing so.  In WoW you are limited in such alternate builds and sub-par equipment, as you potentially risk your entire group, and there are potential social ramifications to these ways of extracting additional enjoyment from the game.  Party mates can get disgruntled with your performance because of your odd talent build, for instance.  This is something that could potentially be fun for you at the expense of others kind of thing, something that I think most Lurkers are not really into.  I mean you aren't going to have much success as rogue that only weilds bows in a group, even though it may be a viable way to play solo (once you get gouge).
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Ah, and there in lies the rub. See, there are still ways to play alternate without lowering your effectiveness by much. In raiding, a Shadowpriest can be just as effective as a Holy Priest or a Discipline Priest. There are many other builds that can be considered variant from the norm, but still quite effective.

I've been looking at my build for my Rogue lately and I'm leaning toward the Dagger Combat/Subtlety Rogue...the one that can backstab and ambush like nobody's business and can turn around and be effective in group play (due to things like improved sap). This varies pretty significantly from other Dagger Rogues that typically go Subtlety/Assassination without going very deep into Combat or the Sword Rogues that go deep into Assassination/Combat without going very far into Subtlety.

The thing is, what the general populous thinks as variant can still be viable. You're getting trapped into the feeling that you have to build your talents in a certain way because the general populous thinks that is the way it has to be to be effective without ever looking at things that would be considered variant and still effective.

[Arnulf]

Following is a translation of the WOW Expansion preview article the Italian magazine "The Games Machine" will release in their next issue, and which has been asked by Blizzard not to be published on the magazine's website before the official announcement by Blizzard at BlizzCon (see the previous thread). The translation of the article has been made by a magazine subscriber who DOES have the magazine already. [...]
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I have some issues with this.

First, having played WC3 and the Frozen Throne I cannot imagine why the Blood Elves would side with the Horde. This goes contrary to everything they've done and suffered in the WC3 expansion. At best they'd be neutral. Blood Elves are on noone's side.

Secondly, raising the level cap to 70. I'm deeply disappointed with this move. It punishes my level 60 character who has done so many quests since he turned 60. All those experience points went to waste. Also all the equipment that is for level 60 and class-specific just turned to trash. Yes I'm talking about the sets you can collect in Molten Core. What use is this when you're facing an opponent who is ten levels above you?

I do not even want to think about distributing ten more talent points. What are they thinking?

For the very first time I thinking about dropping this game.

-Arnulf

[Urza-DSF]

Secondly, raising the level cap to 70. I'm deeply disappointed with this move. It punishes my level 60 character who has done so many quests since he turned 60. All those experience points went to waste. Also all the equipment that is for level 60 and class-specific just turned to trash. Yes I'm talking about the sets you can collect in Molten Core. What use is this when you're facing an opponent who is ten levels above you?

I do not even want to think about distributing ten more talent points. What are they thinking?

For the very first time I thinking about dropping this game.

-Arnulf
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I'm sorry, but the *only* valid argument I see there is the wasted XP from doing quests after you were capped.

Your complaining that your gear won't be the "the best" anymore? What do you want Blizzard to do: forever limit players to level 60 (an arbitrary and unsatisfying number if you ask me) and never create any new items? That makes absolutly no sense.

It's not like they are just going to raise the cap and leave characters there with no way to compete against it. New, even better, items will be created for characters above 60, just like it happenes every other time any cap was raised in any game.

I just don't see the point in saying that the addition of *new* content and *different* things to do would push you to want to leave the game.

[Rinnhart]

You're both missing a few key points:

1) There's so much backstabbing within the alliance because there's a freakin' black dragon in charge.

Oh, don't let that fool you, all the orders from the top are legit! Honest.

Half the plotlines are convoluted with the purpose of illustrating "SOMETHING BAD IS HAPPENING IN THE LEADERSHIP."


2)Let's just ignore the questlines leading to Ragefire Chasm which cast strong shadows of suspicion within the orcs' society.


3) THE FORSAKEN ARE TRYING TO KILL EVERYONE. One might say it's pretty fricken evil of the Horde to be allied with them, at all, given their pretty obvious desire to, you know, obliterate all life.


The PC races are generally both good and evil (except the undead, they're evil even if they're free of the Lich King). The real "good guys" are the neutral factions like the Cenarion Circle and Argent Dawn.

[fractaled]

I think Arnulf's initial point is valid...

I just don't see the point in saying that the addition of *new* content and *different* things to do would push you to want to leave the game.
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(I'm assuming they are adding 10 more levels of leveling, just like levels 50-60, where you get talent points and base stat boosts per level)

Adding 10 levels destroys a lot of content as well... every place that you go to grind current level 60 stuff will be obsolete. Also, all level 60 crafting recipes will be mostly worthless (not that most of them had a lot of worth anyway).

Level 70 mobs doesn't make them any harder, it just means you have to grind for 10 more levels to make them the same difficulty.

As for the items... not everyone plays for the items. Adding 10 more levels means you need to re-get the "best" pvp/pvm/raid/grind gear before you can experience it at the "best" level again. Also, it makes it clear that they see this as a valid "expansion", meaning they'll likely do it again around this time next year.

[edit typo]

[Rinnhart]

Oh, ho ho! But next come the endless revamps to old zones in an attempt to make them popular with level capped and geared players. Or, as we like to call ourselves; "playa's."

[Drasca]

You're both missing a few key points:

1) There's so much backstabbing within the alliance because there's a freakin' black dragon in charge. [right][snapback]92933[/snapback][/right]

Even before Deathwing & Onyxia, there's always been fragmentation on a regional, national, and interfaction level. Don't be so naive to think an outside force is responsible for all of it. That storyline's fun, but self-interest and greed are always pushed.

Warlocks are evil. I made no denial about that. That said, Thrall likes to keep his enemies under very close observation. That is a practical matter, and you're stereotyping orc warlocks for all orcs.

3) THE FORSAKEN ARE TRYING TO KILL EVERYONE.

Uh no. They don't need to. You watch too many horror movies. That's the Lich king's scourge you're thinking of.

They're far less moral about their work, but they're mainly another form of life--life after death. They have free will, thus a chance to be good or evil. Sylvanna's long term goals and actions have yet to be written.