Avarice Alliance - "Off Days" for raiding

[Kevin]

OK these options are in discussion by the raid council and raid leaders right now but I want feeback from other avarice members. I'm having an odd day so cross posting to other boards isn't working for me right now. Could someone do that for me?

Anyway we want to keep a 4 day raid cycle so we can keep rotating the day of the week we open Molten Core so people that can only make one or two days a week still have chances to see all the content and have chances at the loot that only certain bosses drop. Doing anything other than a rotating start date is disservice to our raiders that don't have the time to raid all the time but are still a big part of our success.

So we raid Monday, Thursday, and Saturday night. Molten Core will be condensed to a 2 night affair, not 3. We want to have one day a cycle in Blackwing Lair because we have the gear to kill Razorgore and we want to start learning the other encounters. That leaves an "off day" in the raid cycle. The ideas I had for what we could on that off day are as follows:

So I see the following options to keep the start of MC on a cycle (and I really want it on a cycle because of people that can only make one or two days a week).

1. Have an off day. We raid Monday, Thursday, Saturday. The next Monday is off and we open MC on Thursday. Then the next Thurs would be off and we open MC on Saturday. The off day can still be organized for 5 mans or 10-15 man loot raids or outdoor questing or alts gone wild or for nothing at all.
2. We add a 2nd BWL day. This will happen at some point but makes no sense now since we aren't killing things in BWL at the moment.
3. Have a ZG day in the rotation that we work as a start or continuation of another ZG run or that is just a stand alone with going one way one week and another way another week. It just means those people won't get Hakkar, but ZG is set-up in a way that lets you choose your bosses.
4. If 1.9 comes out soon we can put the silithus raid dungeons in the rotation.
5. Hunt world bosses
6. Bump the rotation start with the floating Ony schedule as Darian mentioned (since that post isn't here basically if we kill Ony on Wed, and Thurs was the star of MC, we move the start of MC to Sat and leave Thursday out and basically an open day to do whatever. If Ony is killed on a Friday Saturday becomes the open day really just a way to schedule option 1).
7. Have an MC trash day (this would, ideally, be done with Luci and Mags alive so we can get core leather as well). I doubt we'd get a lot of sign up for this but it would give us more crafting mats to make Rag easier. It would also give us more core leather and Dark Iron ore that could go to a crafter rep fund. Gnolack is 1880 (I think) Dark Iron ore from Revered (Dark Iron Leggings and Dark Iron Gloves) and a long way away from Exhalted (Dark Iron Boots).
8. Have a PvP night. Either in Battlegrounds or out in the world.
9. Have another shot at domo if the raid lock is still in place just for more practice


Anyway those were my thoughts. Raid council has not decided anything yet. This Thursday was potentially our first off day but since we did do a 3 day MC run it might be a BWL attempt. Of course since that would be very short notice now it might not be. However I really hate leaving our Thursday only people that want to raid out in the cold.

Anyway I want some feed back from members on this since the council doesn't seem to really be able to make a good decision on it right now.

[Quark]

Small thought, not my full thoughts:

On weeks where Ony dies on a usual raid night, we may want to split MC into three like this week (Ony+4, 4, 2) instead of pushing 6, 4 in 2 days.

[Lissa]

OK these options are in discussion by the raid council and raid leaders right now but I want feeback from other avarice members.  I'm having an odd day so cross posting to other boards isn't working for me right now. Could someone do that for me? 

Anyway we want to keep a 4 day raid cycle so we can keep rotating the day of the week we open Molten Core so people that can only make one or two days a week still have chances to see all the content and have chances at the loot that only certain bosses drop.  Doing anything other than a rotating start date is disservice to our raiders that don't have the time to raid all the time but are still a big part of our success.

So we raid Monday, Thursday, and Saturday night.   Molten Core will be condensed to a 2 night affair, not 3.  We want to have one day a cycle in Blackwing Lair because we have the gear to kill Razorgore and we want to start learning the other encounters.  That leaves an "off day" in the raid cycle.  The ideas I had for what we could on that off day are as follows:

So I see the following options to keep the start of MC on a cycle (and I really want it on a cycle because of people that can only make one or two days a week).

1. Have an off day. We raid Monday, Thursday, Saturday. The next Monday is off and we open MC on Thursday. Then the next Thurs would be off and we open MC on Saturday. The off day can still be organized for 5 mans or 10-15 man loot raids or outdoor questing or alts gone wild or for nothing at all.
2. We add a 2nd BWL day. This will happen at some point but makes no sense now since we aren't killing things in BWL at the moment.
3. Have a ZG day in the rotation that we work as a start or continuation of another ZG run or that is just a stand alone with going one way one week and another way another week. It just means those people won't get Hakkar, but ZG is set-up in a way that lets you choose your bosses.
4. If 1.9 comes out soon we can put the silithus raid dungeons in the rotation.
5. Hunt world bosses
6. Bump the rotation start with the floating Ony schedule as Darian mentioned (since that post isn't here basically if we kill Ony on Wed, and Thurs was the star of MC, we move the start of MC to Sat and leave Thursday out and basically an open day to do whatever.  If Ony is killed on a Friday Saturday becomes the open day really just a way to schedule option 1).
7. Have an MC trash day (this would, ideally, be done with Luci and Mags alive so we can get core leather as well). I doubt we'd get a lot of sign up for this but it would give us more crafting mats to make Rag easier.  It would also give us more core leather and Dark Iron ore that could go to a crafter rep fund.  Gnolack is 1880 (I think) Dark Iron ore from Revered (Dark Iron Leggings and Dark Iron Gloves) and a long way away from Exhalted (Dark Iron Boots).
8. Have a PvP night. Either in Battlegrounds or out in the world.
9. Have another shot at domo if the raid lock is still in place just for more practice
Anyway those were my thoughts.  Raid council has not decided anything yet.   This Thursday was potentially our first off day but since we did do a 3 day MC run it might be a BWL attempt.  Of course since that would be very short notice now it might not be.  However I really hate leaving our Thursday only people that want to raid out in the cold.

Anyway I want some feed back from members on this since the council doesn't seem to really be able to make a good decision on it right now.
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Option 10: Domo and MC trash. Basically clear everything on the way to Domo for practice (this will probably disappear once we're satisfied with our Domo kill process). This leaves out getting core leather, but it does give us a lot more opportunities for Cores, BoEs, and DIO.

I'm up for whatever is put in place. I would rather stick the off day right now to trash in MC so we can get more of the materials we need for fighting Rag and then also Vael and other BWL bosses.

The problem I see with using the Off day for world bosses is the likelihood that they would actually be up when we want to make a run at them AND get there before anyone else does. World bosses has always been a big mistake in other MMORPGs so I'm surprised that Blizzard fell into the same trap.

With Z'G, I think throwing that into the rotation would actually be a bad idea. Reason being is the 20 man cap and the number of runs we have going right now may cause more problems that solve with people being either locked out or not enough people to fill out a second run with a good mixture of classes. The same should be said for the 20 man Ahn'Qiraj instance once 1.9 comes about.

So, options 1, 2, 6 - 9 look good to me, but options 3 - 5 don't for the above reasons (and option 9 will probably disappear once we're satisfied with our progress on killing Domo).

[martini]

My favourite ideas are:
1. Have an off day - we have people coming up in the ranks, as well as the very unlucky (okay, me :P) who don't have their blue sets yet.
5. Hunt world bosses - this sounds like a ton of fun to me, and different from the same old thing, which is always good.
4. Silithus - it'll be fun jumping in here and messing around. :)

I'm not a huge fan of adding yet another ZG day... we already have runs on Tuesday, every other Wednesday, and a mega-run on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. Also, if ZG rotated to the Saturday position, you'd get a bunch of people who were raidlocked out of it, from the Friday/Saturday Hakkar killing run.

[Kevin]

I'll mention the ZG stuff though that our current runs seem to miss a lot of people with the way they are timed. I know that I still get people asking me about ZG runs that work better for them so that is why that idea was out there. And that idea was there before the mega runs were started just not out to the public. But yeah I can see where it is a problem but it was just something to try and help those people who can't make any of the ZG times we have now.

[Pesmerga]

I'll mention the ZG stuff though that our current runs seem to miss a lot of people with the way they are timed.  I know that I still get people asking me about ZG runs that work better for them so that is why that idea was out there.  And that idea was there before the mega runs were started just not out to the public.  But yeah I can see where it is a problem but it was just something to try and help those people who can't make any of the ZG times we have now.
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Yeah, people like me. I would love to run ZG. :D

[Lissa]

Yeah, people like me.  I would love to run ZG. :D
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Convince Emily to let you out every other Wednesday night.

[Lissa]

5. Hunt world bosses - this sounds like a ton of fun to me, and different from the same old thing, which is always good.
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The problem with hunting world bosses, as I noted in my post above, is they have to be up and you have to be the first group to arrive on the scene. If you don't get both of those to coincide, you basically won't have the chance at them as there are guilds (DaKoR and Complexity come to mind on the Alliance side) that have toons that do nothing but sit and watch for the bosses to spawn and then start summoning in the raiders.

While I would like to go after some of the world bosses, it just isn't feasible due to how they work.

[Tuftears]

Cirya (House Harpell) recently asked me about doing more ZG runs so I'd say the interest is there... For timing/lockout reasons, I would suggest that we focus on getting Mirajj/Cirya's Wednesday early evening runs staffed, and maybe continued on Friday early evening, instead of having to deal with occasional ZG runs that could block people from participation on the regular runs.

I really think that it's not a bad thing to give people the night off and ask them to help others through instance raids.

[castille]

My priest would like Thunderfury.

MORE WORLD BOSSES!

[Pesmerga]

Convince Emily to let you out every other Wednesday night.
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Unlikely. I have a hard enough time getting her to let me come on random Ony runs. :D

If I can get her a laptop, and the game, and her best friend (maid of honor) on Stormrage, it might be easier.

[Mirajj]

As mentioned elsewhere, I know that on the days off we have that I'm around, I'll be organizing Arathi Basin PvP action. There is some call/interest in it, and I'm having a blast doing it.

[Sabra]

I want more ZG and Tufty's schedule just never seems to work out for me.

I definitely think that we should add Battlegrounds, since there are ... ahem ... some of us who really liked WSG the one and only time they were there ... but are apprehensive to try PvP in a PUG environment. Not everyone likes newbies.

What I really want more than anything is 5 mans in LBRS, Stratholme and Scholomance to help some of our 60s clear quest logs and foster rep and crafting opportunities.

Additonally I think an alts in instance night would be good. ZF, Maraudon, ST and BRD. Rotate them maybe.

[kandrathe]

Cirya (House Harpell) recently asked me about doing more ZG runs so I'd say the interest is there...  For timing/lockout reasons, I would suggest that we focus on getting Mirajj/Cirya's Wednesday early evening runs staffed, and maybe continued on Friday early evening, instead of having to deal with occasional ZG runs that could block people from participation on the regular runs.

I really think that it's not a bad thing to give people the night off and ask them to help others through instance raids.
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I think clearing trash mobs is a good idea for MC (More Bracers & Belts), and ZG (more Coins, Bloodvine, Soulderite, Bijous). The problem with a night off to help people with other raid instances is that when it happens there will be one other raid, and it will probably be the standard three (UBRS/Scholo/Strat), while Avarice hardly ever runs LBRS, Maraudon, Sunken Temple, etc...)

[ZG loot RANT]
If there is no instance lock (ie. Thursday run) then one option would be to go into ZG and clear everything but the bosses. I don't know how other people are doing, but I'm almost (2200 pts away from) Honored and I have yet to come close (1/10 coins, 0/2 Green Bijous) to collecting the crap I need for even my friendly quest. At the rate this is going it will be six months before I get the pieces I need for friendly and Honored (Revered stuff, whew who knows), or I can try to snipe stuff off the AH. This is one reason I HATE random as it is bound to screw some people, and favor others. I know I have been lucky on some things (like the Gun, and the Primal Aegis), but in truth I would rather have about 15 more coins, and a few more Bijous than I have now. Sorry, to vent this here, but I really think there must be a better way to try to match the loot drops(coins/bijous esp.) to people's Friendly faction quests (then Honored, etc). I guess I am most distressed with my 0/5 Sandfury coins, and 1/5 Skullsplitter coins and I have 1/6 of the needed Bijous -- it is just dismal and discouraging.
[/ZG Loot RANT]

I know some people have pursued the Silithus quests a bit, and I am into it a little. Seems like it is an escalating quest line, building to a 40 person instance. Not as simple as a trip through BRD/UBRS to get attuned to the MC or BWL.

I agree with Lissa on the world bosses. It would be fun to do, but since we raid at a set day/time, getting the stars aligned properly will be difficult.

[Gooze]

My favoured option is trash mobs in MC, for bracers & belts (and core leather and DIO).

However, I'm happy to go anywhere and do anything. :D

Hopefully silithus will be up soon, and we'll have a new 20-man and 40-man dungeon to pwn. (Frankly, ZG has failed to excite me)

[WildFire]

Since weekdays are usually 'off' for me anyway, I won't mind having them provided that they are on weekdays and the weekends stay 'action-packed'.

As for Silithus, that's one of the 2 activities I spend my weekdays doing now - the other being mining DI ore to slow get to Revered with the Thorium Brotherhood. I am making slow, but steady progress with both, and hope to be in a position to summon Abyssal Council Royals at some stage. As mentioned in my thread which is still in the Events forum at the CA site, what I could do with is some help obtaining Twilight Texts and some extra muscle to help kill Dukes when summoned.

But more to the matter at hand, do I feel overwhelmed at the current Avarice raiding schedule? Hardly. I am only going to make 1 of the 3 weekly raids, and will be missing all of the Onyxia visits, except for when one falls on a weekend. I also miss half of Tuft's ZG raids as well... so maybe I'm not exactly the right person to ask about wanting to 'slow down'.

[emaq123]

I like the World Boss Night or Random 5-15 man raids ideas.

2 cents given. Keep the change. :P

[Kevin]

Since weekdays are usually 'off' for me anyway, I won't mind having them provided that they are on weekdays and the weekends stay 'action-packed'.

As for Silithus, that's one of the 2 activities I spend my weekdays doing now - the other being mining DI ore to slow get to Revered with the Thorium Brotherhood. I am making slow, but steady progress with both, and hope to be in a position to summon Abyssal Council Royals at some stage. As mentioned in my thread which is still in the Events forum at the CA site, what I could do with is some help obtaining Twilight Texts and some extra muscle to help kill Dukes when summoned.

But more to the matter at hand, do I feel overwhelmed at the current Avarice raiding schedule? Hardly. I am only going to make 1 of the 3 weekly raids, and will be missing all of the Onyxia visits, except for when one falls on a weekend. I also miss half of Tuft's ZG raids as well... so maybe I'm not exactly the right person to ask about wanting to 'slow down'.
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I'm not looking at us slowing down, I'm looking for feedback of what people want to do on night #4 now that we are looking at doing MC in 2 days, hence the quotes on off day. :)

[RTM]

Speaking selfishly, I've pretty much given up on being able to do the lower instances with Lurkers/Avarice. Mostly due to time restrictions on my part (which I'm working on) but also due to the fact that when I DO have time, everyone is raiding. And I don't play at wierd hours, either. Soloing to 60 doesn't bother me much, it's more the fact that I'll miss out on the group dynamics. I don't think Avarice wants a noob warlock with AH blues & greens running through MC with them.

Anyway, all that is to say that maybe a night off would be good.

[Kevin]

Speaking selfishly, I've pretty much given up on being able to do the lower instances with Lurkers/Avarice. Mostly due to time restrictions on my part (which I'm working on) but also due to the fact that when I DO have time, everyone is raiding. And I don't play at wierd hours, either. Soloing to 60 doesn't bother me much, it's more the fact that I'll miss out on the group dynamics. I don't think Avarice wants a noob warlock with AH blues & greens running through MC with them.

Anyway, all that is to say that maybe a night off would be good.
[right][snapback]95029[/snapback][/right]

When I think back the situation of lower level alts getting groups has not gotten any worse or any better for me since day one. Unless I hooked my toon up with another group of toons and kept playing at about the same pace as them I had problems getting lurker groups for all the instances. I would need to take 2 to 4 days in most cases to get one, sometimes I could get a lurker "pick-up" going if I was lucky. At that time it was because people were raiding scholo, strat, UBRS, etc or were doing simply doing 5 mans in Sunken Temple when I was at Gnomeregan level.

When the alliance formed there was a larger total pool of people to try and get spur of the moment groups together but I had about the same success rate for 5 mans at any level. What got a lot easier were loot raids or 5 mans in DM for loot. But that isn't what I'm usually looking for.

I've had the same success rate of getting a pre planned 5 man off the ground or a spur of the moment 5 man off the ground since day one to now really.

However I can see where all the raiding is hurting others with this more that it hurts me. I'm only looking for spur of the moment 5 mans when I'm not raiding. :)

I also keep saying I'll take more nights off when we get longer waitlists but that hasn't happened yet either. I signed up waitlist for Ony last night. I was #2 on the list. I ended up in the raid because I wanted to go and I didn't want to go. I went because there were only 2 paladins there and that becomes a pain for the pallies and I didn't realize that another pally was on the waitlist. Had it been an MC run I would not have gone. I went because Ony is so short.

You are also not the only one to raise this issue and it was a consideration when one of the options was simply an off night.

Even if we don't want to admit it Lurkers are now a pretty hardcore raiding guild so we suffer the problems of hardcore guilds and lower level alts or mains. We are still a somewhat casual guild as well so suffer the problems associated with that (lots of people with odd schedules that don't always overlap) and we are a member of a guild alliance with the problems associated with that. Sure all these things have benefits too and I still think the benefits out weigh the drawbacks but it does cause some other fun issues like this one. We don't raid enough for some, we raid too much for others. We don't spend enough time with alts for some, we spend too much time with alts for others.

Now as to a solution to some of this? I'm going to push Guild Event Manager again. Again two reasons for this. One it has all the functions that the base of guilded has. With guilded being unsupported now we probably want to move away. Two if we all start using it you have another option for scheduling groups and hopefully getting more stuff done with the alts. Three invites for 40 mans are a lot easier with it. :)

I don't think anyone would take offense in CA or Basin or Harpell or Keepers if we all used this and I put up a 5 man LBRS that I said I wanted all lurkers for if possible so you can still do just guild stuff. I don't think any Lurkers would take offense if someone else put up an event that was Basin prefered or CA prefered. Sure with the easier chat we are getting to know the other guilds better, but we are an alliance and not a merged guild for reasons. I know that some days I just want to play with only lurkers, most days I don't care. So if we use GEM heavily most of my events that I put up would be whoever wants to go and I figure that would the same for most everyong, but you could very well see some that I said were lurker prefered and I wouldn't be surprised to see that from others. Heck I would put stuff up there that I planned with "squad goofball" just so others knew better that hmm we've got 4 5 mans scheduled there I better look at a time. Nothing wrong with just wanting to play with your closest friends at times. :)

Of course the whole GEM thing should probably be in the GEM or Guilded thread I started.