The Fundamental Problem with Dodge

[Quark]

Tired of seeing conversation about this from people who shouldn't be talking. So, let's talk about it on a good board ;)

Dodge, as it stands, is too weak for its cost in the item formula. Blizzard has publically stated that Dodge is 12 while Crit is 14. Let's compare how these two come into play:

Crit:
Works on everything, and doubly important for Seal Fate builds.

Dodge:
Works on:
(PvP)
Warriors -> if you use Evasion. Otherwise it's too risky to dodge a melee attack (Overpower) and not the MS.
Rogues -> Best use for it.
Paladins -> somewhat of a help.
Shamans -> small help
Hunters -> if they're meleeing you, which means you're probably close to dead anyway.

(PvE)
Soloing -> you know, the thing Rogues are already strong enough at
When you gain aggro -> I.E, when you screwed up
When you get cleaved -> I.E, when you screwed up (Excluding Razorgore)
When you get Whirlwinded/War Stomped/Other Circular physical AoE

The last one in particular seems to work for:
Razorgore, Bloodlord Mandokir, Thekal, Arlokk

So, in the biggest fights there are in the game (boss fights 20 and 40 man), there's a total of 4 fights I know of where dodge is actually useful. And yet, somehow, Blizzard thinks Dodge's 12 is fair when compared to Crit's 14.

So why not just lower Dodge's cost? Because, sadly, Dodge is valued correctly when taken in the right context. That context? Warriors and Bears. Dodge is already cheaper than Parry, and making it cheaper would make it too good on the tanking items in the game.

What makes this doubly confusing is that most +dodge% equipment is Rogue equipment. They valued Dodge for its tanking bonuses, and then gave it to a class that doesn't tank at all. Bloodfang is the worst offender, one piece being a sidegrade over Nightslayer (similar stats +dodge%), another being a complete downgrade (similar stats, lose +hit%, gain +dodge%).

So what's a solution for this? Given the current data, it seems highly unlikely that Blizzard would give different values for the same attribute in its different roles. The only other solution I would see is to take the dodge off Rogue gear, since we don't want it, and start putting it where it belongs, on the tank gear.

[Treesh]

The only other solution I would see is to take the dodge off Rogue gear, since we don't want it, and start putting it where it belongs, on the tank gear.
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Emphasis added.

Speak for yourself. I happen to like Eth's high chance to dodge. If I get jumped and evasion is in cooldown, I'm happy as hell to see the dodges come flying in. If I end up tanking Drakk in UBRS because I'm the ONLY non-cloth wearer left besides the hunters, you bet I'm damned happy for my extra dodge so all the DPSers can keep DPSing. (If the hunter tanks, we just lost a bunch of DPS there whereas I can tank and still DPS.) If I have to be sent off on a caster/hybrid mob, I'm damned happy to not have to burn evasion for it for when they try to whallop me after I kick them in the face a few times while waiting for kidney shot to cooldown. With the way that Eth is built and the odd little groupings she gets into frequently, I do actually off tank with her frequently when the warrior can't hold more than one mob against healer aggro or there isn't enough crowd control to go around. Dodge gives the rogue slightly more utility (something that you've been bemoaning for a long time now) than just more damage. Yes, for 40 man raiding you don't need as much dodge, but it's still very helpful for the smaller raids and 5 mans.

Edit: Oh, and in Zul'Gurub. I tanked whatever boss it was that does the nasty poison cloud crap for long enough to prevent a wipe. Couldn't have done that without nice dodge. Dodge is damned handy for rogues for those times When Things Go Wrong.

[bonemage]

Major tangent here, but it is based on the principle of costs of attributes/stats that don't do what you want, taking up those valuable points so you don't get what you want.

Since the costs of certain attributes on items are set, wouldn't it be nice to tie the crafting system into that more dynamically, and actually let the crafters craft? They would be closer to artisans, and should have more work. Right now, crafters have a few good recipes cranking out carbon copy items.

Let me clarify with an example, the numbers and quanities don't matter, this is for discussion purposes only:

You are a leatherworker, and want to craft a mail chest piece. The rules of crafting a leather chest piece of a item level of 60 require 24 rugged leather, 32 blue dragonscale, 8 black dragonscale, 8 runecloth, and the chest piece will have X points that can be spent, the number of points matching Blizzard's rules of costs per stats/attributes. The rest of the reagents detemine what stats/attributes are on the finishedl piece, limited by the available total points. You want +1% crit? Add 20 Wicked Claws. You want +2% chance to hit? Add 180 Khadgar's Whiskers. Want FR? Add Fiery Cores. (Please note, the 20 Wicked Claws was my best example, based on Lionheart's 2% crit chance and 40 needed Wicked Claws.) The idea should be clear. There are a few reasons why this would be good. You could get what you want. You could look at your gear and think, I really need more of THIS, and round up reagents and mats and find an appropriate crafter to make that one piece of gear that really completes what you wanted from your gear. Really high level crafters could make some really nice pieces of gear, opening up some good gear that might not be available to smaller guilds, more casual players. You could have a complete matching set of gear (all based on the same base type of item) that is more useful than for show. There could be identical recipes that the base item only varies in appearance, so there isn't just ONE "best" of a class (i.e. the highest item level mail chest piece). Gear and talents are the only way to distinguish your toon from another of the same level/class (OK, how you play goes in here too, but your gear and talents should match your play) and this will give you more options for gear. The artists could go "crazy-go-nuts" on appearance of different models, and give the crafters a lot of appearance options, without having to put in a lot of extra thought of being sure they don't just duplicate other items, or having to be specific on where the items drop.

Random thoughts on this (my mind is in vomit mode currently):

Recipes: Recipes are of two kinds, named better than what I am calling them now, Base, and Attributes. A crafter gets the base item (basically set the base armor level, the item level, and therefore the available points) recipes, and must also learn how to work in different stats. The basic ones come from trainers, others are high end raid guild drops. So the above crappy example (still works to illustrate the point) leatherworker needs a recipe for the base mail chest piece of an item level of 60. They would also need to have learned the Attributes recipes on how to work with Wicked Claws to make +crit, etc.

Balance issues/Potential pitfalls: Potential for some variant player design based on gear choices is higher, with potential balance issues. Is a 3100 Hit point tank with 40% dodge viable? Too powerful? (Those are retorical questions, but you get the idea). You would hope that a well designed, balanced toon would be best, but it could make everyone into one trick ponies. Farmers unite! Lots of farming for said reagents/mats, and perhaps lots of gear bought with real world cash by players. Would everyone be stone lumps or glass cannons? For balance reasons, certain stats/attributes could be restricted on certain items.

Item levels and BoP: I think that the maximum allowed crafted items still have lower item levels than the top drop BoP items that top end guilds raid for, otherwise crafted items would really be all you need. So, if AQ40 is dropping items with an item level of 81, the very top crafted item level whose recipes drop in AQ40 would be 66 or 71. If everyone started wearing only crafted items, then Blizzard would know that their design was lacking, with the higher item levels of the top raid drops should make them superior. If they're not, there must be unwanted attributes.

[castille]

Let's see, all but 3 pieces of my epic sets have +heal on them. This is about the same argument.

Nightslayer has ONLY +2% hit, while Bloodfang has +3%, as well as the +2% dodge. Sure, this makes the stats for the two sets closer because of the itemization cost. Nightslayer -does- have one more +crit, but the agility difference coupled with the attack power from the 30+ extra strength help make Bloodfang an overall stronger set.

Dodge is not that bad, I personally love it on my rogue. I'm not sure if it goes Parry -> Dodge -> Hit when it's checked, but I get riposte fairly often even with the full talent spec for dodge. Maybe Dodge doesn't get often used in PvE, but neither does +heal on a shadow priest. That doesn't stop the Tier 2 set from being overall stronger for DPS than the Tier 1, just because it has some on there.

[Quark]

Let's see, all but 3 pieces of my epic sets have +heal on them. This is about the same argument.

Not really, as there is rarely such thing as a "tanking Rogue". Shadow Priests, however, are common, and should have their own items to compensate for that.

Nightslayer has ONLY +2% hit, while Bloodfang has +3%, as well as the +2% dodge. Sure, this makes the stats for the two sets closer because of the itemization cost. Nightslayer -does- have one more +crit, but the agility difference coupled with the attack power from the 30+ extra strength help make Bloodfang an overall stronger set.

Yes, as a whole, Bloodfang is better than Nightslayer. But Bloodfang's 8 piece bonus is the only reason to go 8/8 BF instead of 6/8 BF, 2/8 NS. If I don't have that full 8, you better believe I'll still be using the Nightslayer in those specific slots even if I have Bloodfang also.

Dodge is not that bad, I personally love it on my rogue. I'm not sure if it goes Parry -> Dodge -> Hit when it's checked, but I get riposte fairly often even with the full talent spec for dodge. Maybe Dodge doesn't get often used in PvE, but neither does +heal on a shadow priest. That doesn't stop the Tier 2 set from being overall stronger for DPS than the Tier 1, just because it has some on there.
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Priest's most common role is healing, and the sets reinforce that by adding +heal. Rogue's most common role is doing damage, and Bloodfang reinforces that by adding dodge?

Treesh: is dodge worthless? No. But I've gotten so much of it just through pure agility, that it is worth less than any other statistic Blizzard puts in Rogue gear. If every +1% dodge was replaced with +stamina, I'd be much happier. When Things Go Wrong, Stamina is often better than Dodge. Dodge doesn't help against that Poison Cloud at all. It doesn't help stay in to fight Golemagg longer. Domo's priests spells. Ragnaros's AoEs. Razorgore's Fireball Volley. Vaelestrasz' AoE. Firesworns blowing up. Gehennes AoE and random target Shadow Bolts. Lucifron's curse. Magmadar's Magma Spit. So many cases where additional HP would help but additional dodge would not.

When things go really wrong, I typically have Evasion up. That really does give me enough dodge already, combined with my Agility.

Also, don't forget that any additional non-sta stats that would replace the dodge would help kill things faster. The faster mobs die, the less often things go wrong. Your additional damage will help you in every fight. Dodge only helps part of the time.

Finally, a clarification: I'm not complaining about Dodge in general. I'm complaining about +dodge being put on Rogue items. In many situations Dodge has saved my life, though in raiding it's been much rarer. Yet I have exactly 0 +dodge gear equipped. All my dodge comes from Agility and Evasion (if it's ready). That's it. And it's enough.

[Treesh]

Treesh: is dodge worthless?  No.  But I've gotten so much of it just through pure agility, that it is worth less than any other statistic Blizzard puts in Rogue gear. 
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That I can see. Guess I'm just so used to hearing you whine and complain about it so much that I assume you think that dodge itself is worthless.

[Drasca]

In many situations Dodge has saved my life
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There've been a few times dodge has saved my warlock's life... :whistling:

[oldmandennis]

1) No class usually gets an exact optimal distribution of stats on their set. It's just not how its done. I'd like to see a lot more mana/5sec then spirit on the shaman sets, for example.

2) Dodge may be more useful when the action starts moving to smaller instances like Medivah's tower. I think in smaller groups the rogue ends up taking more hits and its not an instagib.