America's real GDP and military budget?

[Obi2Kenobi]

I was doing some research on the military budget. I was trying to find the military budget in terms of the GDP (Gross Domestic Product), so I check Google. It tells me some numbers for both, and it comes out to 3.1%. I then decide to check if the CIA world factbook is more updated (since Google uses that as the source), and I guess it is, because they come right out and report the military/GDP, 3.3%.

I'm sure many of you are wondering right now why it's so low, or at least I was. I was expecting at least 7%+. However, when I do the actual math the raw GDP and military expenditures they supplied, I get 2.9%, which is going in the wrong direction!

What's the real % of the American GDP spent on military?

(I wasn't expecting to get a real figure, just I was thinking they would report a higher number than I actually got.)


This wouldn't result just from lowering the given military budget, however. It's possible that the GDP itself is inflated. Assuming, of course, that the figures are false.

[kandrathe]

I was doing some research on the military budget. I was trying to find the military budget in terms of the GDP (Gross Domestic Product), so I check Google. It tells me some numbers for both, and it comes out to 3.1%. I then decide to check if the CIA world factbook is more updated (since Google uses that as the source), and I guess it is, because they come right out and report the military/GDP, 3.3%.

I'm sure many of you are wondering right now why it's so low, or at least I was. I was expecting at least 7%+. However, when I do the actual math the raw GDP and military expenditures they supplied, I get 2.9%, which is going in the wrong direction!

What's the real % of the American GDP spent on military?

(I wasn't expecting to get a real figure, just I was thinking they would report a higher number than I actually got.)
This wouldn't result just from lowering the given military budget, however. It's possible that the GDP itself is inflated. Assuming, of course, that the figures are false.
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Looks like 419 billion DoD budget / 12650 billion to me. ~3.31% It depends on what you want to count as military? Dept of HS? Army Corps of Engineers? USAID? Pensions for Veterans? VA Medical?

OMB - Federal Budget
US Budget 2007
Tables

If you want to bend the statistics the other way...

War Resisters League's view on the Federal Budget

I always like to ask the hard questions, such as; Do we need defense? Should we have bases in Japan, Italy, Greece, Germany, Turkey, etc, etc, etc? Should we pay for veterans medical bills, and should we give them a pension for serving the nation and being willing to put their life on the line? So, you don't like that genocide in Sudan or Rwanda? Who are you gonna call to put a stop to it?

[Guest]

Oh please.

I always like to ask the hard questions, such as;  Do we need defense? 
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I too like to ask hard questions.
Will I die if I dont eat?
Where do puppies come from?
Does the sun turn off at night?



Oh wait - those were hard questions when I was 3.

[Occhidiangela]

I was doing some research on the military budget. I was trying to find the military budget in terms of the GDP (Gross Domestic Product), so I check Google. It tells me some numbers for both, and it comes out to 3.1%. I then decide to check if the CIA world factbook is more updated (since Google uses that as the source), and I guess it is, because they come right out and report the military/GDP, 3.3%.

I'm sure many of you are wondering right now why it's so low, or at least I was. I was expecting at least 7%+. However, when I do the actual math the raw GDP and military expenditures they supplied, I get 2.9%, which is going in the wrong direction!

What's the real % of the American GDP spent on military?

(I wasn't expecting to get a real figure, just I was thinking they would report a higher number than I actually got.)
This wouldn't result just from lowering the given military budget, however. It's possible that the GDP itself is inflated. Assuming, of course, that the figures are false.
[right][snapback]105854[/snapback][/right]

Why are you bothered that your research didn't bear out your assumption? US defense as a percentage of GDP has been around 3.0-4.5 %, depending on how you muddle with the numbers, for the last 10 years I can recall, and most of our NATO allies are, or were, around 2% at most. At one point, Pres Clinton and some other folks in Washington were trying to trim the Defense budget to nearer the 2.0 to 2.5 % range, however, they kept on deploying a military not closing bases. For another topic. Books could be written about that, and doubtless have.

One reason we do research is to find out facts, not just to reconfirm hunches.

It is as high as it is because the US defense budget pays for a global security posture, not a purely national defense posture.

Lately, of course, the expenses of the war in Iraq have inflated defense spending a bit, but that isn't the same as the standard, annual defense budget. The Iraq war is funded by a series of supplemental budgetary vehicles.

Occhi

[Obi2Kenobi]

It's not that they didn't bear out my assumptions that I posted this, that was merely secondary. The main thing was that their numbers didn't appear to match, even within the same page, unless I'm overlooking a key piece of information.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fact...os/us.html

[Occhidiangela]

It's not that they didn't bear out my assumptions that I posted this, that was merely secondary. The main thing was that their numbers didn't appear to match, even within the same page, unless I'm overlooking a key piece of information.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fact...os/us.html
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Well, remember, the reason the budget is compared to GDP is political. When presented as the percentage of the total budget, is appears larger, for the same dollar figure. It should come as no surprise that the numbers wont match across agencies, as each will apply different "this counts and this doesn't" modalities depending on their bureaucratic agenda.

Occhi

[eppie]

This wouldn't result just from lowering the given military budget, however. It's possible that the GDP itself is inflated. Assuming, of course, that the figures are false.
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Do you want to start a political discussion here, or are you realy interested in this budget calculation?

[Occhidiangela]

Do you want to start a political discussion here, or are you realy interested in this budget calculation?
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eppie, I think he asks a legitimate question that many laymen have:

How does one calculate a GDP? Who audits the estimators? Which subset of Generaly Accepted Accounting Principles are applied?

Gross National Product was once a measure of economic activity, but it seems to have been replaced with GDP.

GDP is used in a forumula for UN dues, for example. With that in mind, how one calculate and estimate GDP has a more than esoteric impact.

Occhi

[Occhidiangela]

Oh please.
I too like to ask hard questions.
Will I die if I dont eat?
Where do puppies come from?
Does the sun turn off at night?
Oh wait - those were hard questions when I was 3.
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Ghost, I think he was being sarcastic in that part of his post, but absent any smilies I may have guessed incorrectly. :unsure: <== *Obligatory smilie*

Occhi

[Occhidiangela]

Looks like 419 billion DoD budget / 12650 billion to me.&nbsp; ~3.31%&nbsp; It depends on what you want to count as military?&nbsp; Dept of HS?&nbsp; Army Corps of Engineers?&nbsp; USAID? Pensions for Veterans?&nbsp; VA Medical?
OMB - Federal Budget
US Budget 2007
Tables

[right][snapback]105855[/snapback][/right]

Dept of HS is explicitly NOT military, see the Posse Comitatus act for the statutory reasons behind that. I still think the creation of that Department was an irresponsible waste of tax dollars, as Justice and Transportation (via Coast Guard) were already in place. Throwing a bureaucracy at a problem rarely solves the problem.

Military units are at times seconded to HS or Justice, and the operating funds are charged back to the Law Enforcement account. The War on Drugs is a law enforcement expense. That was true when I was in the 'War on Drugs' and I don't recall the rules on that changing. They may have.

ACE is, IIRC, funded by DoA under DoD; Title X.

USAID is neither a DoD agency nor a DoS agency. Its efforts are explicitly non military in character, and far closer to State than Defense in nature. See This USAID / DOS MoU
The VA has to be considered a Defense cost, if nothing else it is a debt service of any given "current year's" defense spending
The pay to vested retired military personnel, the career NCO or officer who retires with 20-35 years, is legally "deferred compensation." It is not a pension. IIRC, it is a DoD budget expenditure.

Moving on to figures lie and liars figure.

If you want to bend the statistics the other way...

War Resisters League's view on the Federal Budget

I note selective use of statistics. They overlook that the Peace Dividend didn't save any money, the rigorous Congressional mandate to reduce deficit spending did in the 90's. That cut both social and military spending. They overlook the root of the problem, which is the propensity of Congress to spend money.

“Past military” represents veterans’ benefits plus 80% of the interest on the debt.*

Yet the admit they are taking liberties with the numbers.

*Analysts differ on how much of the debt stems from the military; other groups estimate 50% to 60%. We use 80% because we believe if there had been no military spending most (if not all) of the national debt would have been eliminated. For further explanation, please see box at bottom of page.

Guns and butter is an expensive mix, no question.

Their concern over the debt service is shared by me, but for different reasons. That brief shining moment in the 1990's, when Congress put forth a bipartisan push to get a grip on deficit spending has been blown away by a Republican administration and a Republican Congress throwing fiscal caution to the winds. Tax cut, twice, and a war? That is irresponsible. You must pay for your wars, one way or another. The second tax cut was an abomination, given the nation's debt posture.

The site ignores the economic impact of military spending, however. Most of that money is spent in the US. Those dollars are circulated in the economy in the service and retail sector, not to mention in the real estate, paying lawyers for divorces, keeping high tech jobs open, an so on.

I agree with the war resister's position that defense spending has to be looked at with some skepticism. However, budgets are, by statute, an annual figure and a current dollars cost.

The policies that effect entitlement, which includes VA programs, are related costs but cannot, in my opinion, be characterized as dollar for dollar equivalent Defense costs.

Thanks for the various links. Some interesting points to ponder. :whistling:

Occhi