Super Fight!

[aaa]

I got into a minor arguement with a co-worker today over who would win in a fight:
Batman or Superman
I took the side of :ph34r:Batman:shuriken:
He went with "Superman pick up big rock, make Batman paste"

I got him to budge on a few points, but he still insists that it "wouldn't even be a contest"

What do you guys think?

[Thecla]

Well, since batman has no superpowers and relies instead on the development of his natural abilities and intelligence, I assume he'd be smart enough to have some kryptonite handy in his bat pouch, in which case superman would be toast.

If batman happened to have left his krytonite in the bat cave's microwave oven, then he'd be pasted, burned, fried, dropped from a great height, exploded in outer space and hurled into a balck hole by superman. I don't rate his chances as being very good.

[kandrathe]

I got into a minor arguement with a co-worker today over who would win in a fight:
Batman or Superman
I took the side of :ph34r:Batman:shuriken:
He went with "Superman pick up big rock, make Batman paste"

I got him to budge on a few points, but he still insists that it "wouldn't even be a contest"

What do you guys think?

It depends on whether you buy that movie gimmick where Superman can fly so fast that he reverses time. In that case, who could win?

[DeeBye]

It depends on whether you buy that movie gimmick where Superman can fly so fast that he reverses time. In that case, who could win?

Batman still wins. He foresees the time travel tactic (because he's the goddamn BATMAN!) and invents a strategy to defeat it.

[Chesspiece_face]

I got into a minor arguement with a co-worker today over who would win in a fight:
Batman or Superman
I took the side of :ph34r:Batman:shuriken:
He went with "Superman pick up big rock, make Batman paste"

I got him to budge on a few points, but he still insists that it "wouldn't even be a contest"

What do you guys think?

In every Comic Book battle between Superman and Batman, Superman has never won to my knowledge. The initial response by people who have little knowledge of the characters is to say Superman, he's got all those SUPER powers. But by those that know more about the characters than what they see in movies or cartoons everyone knows Batman will always win because he inherantly doesn't trust anyone else and Superman does. While Superman is out floating Lois Lane around romantically over Metropolis Batman is sitting in his cave thinking up ways he can beat the $#@% out of Superman if he ever needed to.

Tell your friend to pick up and read "Batman and Philosophy: The Dark Knight of the Soul". It not only describes why Batman always beats Superman, but why he is also a better Hero than Superman.

[Jester]

The defense for Batman seems to revolve around some version of "Batman is a complete badass, and Superman isn't."

If you think badassedness beats the absurd set of powers Superman has, then there you go. But I'm having a hard time thinking of an actual method by which, in anything resembling a fair fight (where both know they're fighting each other from the beginning), Batman is going to so much as leave a dent in Superman. Since Superman understands that his opponent is not a complete moron, and may well be equipped with Kryptonite, one would assume he would take up his "can't lose" tactic of vaporizing Batman with heat vision from hundreds of feet in the air. I'm not quite sure how you beat that, especially since he can dodge projectiles at light speed.

But, then, I'm not Batman.

-Jester

Afterthought: Superman does seem to have a shockingly difficult time beating Lex Luthor, who is, if anything, less dangerous than Batman.

After-afterthought: He does always win in the end, though.

[Frag]

As others have brought up, the 'rules' of the encounter have as much bearing as the powers of either of the DC Leaders. If either one has the jump on the other and had time to plan, it's very likely that hero would win. Example, without ground rules, how do you determine if Batman is allowed to bring a mage along (Ooooh!) or Superman can 'stop' time. Also at what point during their lifetime are they facing off, etc... I believe a quantitative analysis can be accurately determined with enough basics to cover most of the outliers.

Cheers,
~FragB)

[Occhidiangela]

Batman and Superman aren't dumb enough to fight one another.

They have a threesome with Lois, or more likely with Wonder Woman.

(For those of you who have read the insanely funny "if Lois and Superman were really lovers" bit by IIRC Philip Jose Farmer, the threesome is actually a lot stranger than if not. )

Occhi

[--Pete]

Hi,

(For those of you who have read the insanely funny "if Lois and Superman were really lovers" bit by IIRC Philip Jose Farmer, the threesome is actually a lot stranger than if not. )

That rang a faint and dusty bell, so I did a little digging. Found this by Niven. Is that what you meant, or do I need to go out and search Riverworld for another Farmer. :lol:

--Pete

[Hammerskjold]

I got into a minor arguement with a co-worker today over who would win in a fight:
Batman or Superman
I took the side of :ph34r:Batman:shuriken:
He went with "Superman pick up big rock, make Batman paste"

I got him to budge on a few points, but he still insists that it "wouldn't even be a contest"

What do you guys think?

At the risk of repeating and overlap, I would guess it depends on the settings and rules of the era. Ie: Comic vs Animated vs Live Action. Golden age, silver, modern, post crisis, post modern, post modern crisis. Earth2 alternate multiverse where people don't play 6 degrees of why Obama is to blame for my coke being flat, and Jon and Kate only had twins and TLC was not a Cthulloid agent of ancient evil.

IIRC, in the general comics settings Superman has 2 vulnerabilities. Kryptonite and Magic. So as someone pointed out, even if there's a rule that says it has to be a one on one fight, chances are Batman wouldn't follow that rule. Cause ya know, he's freakin Batman. Batman's genre is no stranger to magic, while Supes is more or less closer to sci-fi'sh.

While Superman is not a moron either, personally I think it comes down to who they are at their core. Kal-El- Kent probably likes to believe more in the best parts of humanity. T3h Batman, is deeply affected by what he'd seen and experienced from the worst of humanity.

While Supes would most likely win in an aerial supremacy raining heat vision from high above, my bet is Batman would conduct a guerila warfare combat where aerial laz0ring would either be useless, or turn the tide of mere mortals against the big blue cape.

But my personal take is, Bats could be defeated. But most likely, pointy ears would find a way to turn it into a phrryc victory for Supes. Not necessarily because of intelligence, but because one is probably more willing to go further than the other.

But no matter what the outcome, winner gets to fight the -real- champ.

Matter Eater Lad.

[Jester]

While Supes would most likely win in an aerial supremacy raining heat vision from high above, my bet is Batman would conduct a guerila warfare combat where aerial laz0ring would either be useless, or turn the tide of mere mortals against the big blue cape.

How does one conduct guerilla warfare against someone who can hear you coming from half a city away and who can move at the speed of light? Batman has one shot *maximum* to make good with the Kryptonite, or magic, or whatever else he's got. Anything longer than a few seconds in combat with Superman, and you'd have a Superman's-Fist-sized hole in your chest. You can't wear him down, or tire him out, or drain his resources. He's Superman.

-Jester

[Chesspiece_face]

How does one conduct guerilla warfare against someone who can hear you coming from half a city away and who can move at the speed of light? Batman has one shot *maximum* to make good with the Kryptonite, or magic, or whatever else he's got. Anything longer than a few seconds in combat with Superman, and you'd have a Superman's-Fist-sized hole in your chest. You can't wear him down, or tire him out, or drain his resources. He's Superman.

-Jester

You should read more comics.

[Jester]

You should read more comics.

Probably. The last two comics I read were V for Vendetta and Watchmen - which probably tells you about how often I read comics.

-Jester

[Hammerskjold]

How does one conduct guerilla warfare against someone who can hear you coming from half a city away and who can move at the speed of light? Batman has one shot *maximum* to make good with the Kryptonite, or magic, or whatever else he's got. Anything longer than a few seconds in combat with Superman, and you'd have a Superman's-Fist-sized hole in your chest. You can't wear him down, or tire him out, or drain his resources. He's Superman.

-Jester

Yes, but who said it has to be Batman himself doing direct combat, even in a guerilla warfare style combat? Even if there was, I doubt Bats would follow that. Supes can be an uber soldier. But Bats is a General. Off the top of my head, there's one other alien that can probably stand toe to toe at the very least with big blue. Jonn Jonzz.

Without this becoming a circular argument, yes that would mean it no longer means Bat vs Cape. It's now Martian vs Kryptonian. But who said Batman ever liked to play fair?

Even Superman has to recharge sometime, he's solar powered remember. So I wouldn't entirely agree that he can't be worn out, or drain his resources. It might take a while yes. But how long can Clark keep up with the vigilance bordering on paranoia? Bats pretty much had practiced that kind of mindset ever since he was 8-10.

So what if Supes can hear people talk from a mile away. Can he read sign language in a lead lined batcave bunker?

[Jester]

But Bats is a General.

Isn't the entire idea of Batman that he's a lone vigilante? (Okay, Robin, and Alfred. But hardly an army.)

-Jester

[Hammerskjold]

Isn't the entire idea of Batman that he's a lone vigilante? (Okay, Robin, and Alfred. But hardly an army.)

-Jester

That's certainly a big idea, but not the entire idea of the character. Don't forget the inside man of Gordon. So no, not an army in the sense of sheer volume. But the lone vigilante idea is mostly a PR job. If we look at the media, it says otherwise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justice_League_Unlimited

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_the_...d_the_bold

(Exception being the live action movies, because of obvious rights issues and money. Let's face it, despite the potential of a great story when we mix other DC characters, when there's a Batman movie most folks want to see, ya know just the Batman universe and his Rogue's Gallery. So I don't expect a Green Lantern with Batman crossover in the same movie anytime soon. Nothing really wrong with that either.)

Though if I were to really give it more thought, I think we might be overlooking something. The advantage might not go soley to who has more super power or deviousness, but also if one (or both) knows the other's alter ego. That will probably be a big factor as well.


ps. On a sidenote, what did you think of the Watchmen comic vs movie. Specifically, the lack of you know what on the movie version.

[aaa]

Isn't the entire idea of Batman that he's a lone vigilante? (Okay, Robin, and Alfred. But hardly an army.)

-Jester

First let me say I am not a super-comic-book-guy.
But off the top of my head there is:
Batman
Nightwing/Robin#1 (Dick Grayson)
Robin#2 (Jason Todd, aka "the bad Robin")
Robin#3 (Tim Drake)
Batgirl#1/Oracle (Barbara Gordon)
Batgirl#2 (Cassandra? mouth is sewn shut on costume)
Probably more Robins and Batgirls
Huntress (don't know name)
Azrael (don't know name, took over for Batman for a while)
Com. Gordon / Police Force
Alfred
The guy who fixes the Batmobile/Batboat/Batplane/Batpogostick/etc...

All of whom are (probably) currently alive in at least one of the Batman Comics.

Not too shabby for a shut in loaner.

In the interest of fairness, I must point out that Superman has quite the list himself, but I'm not as big a fan, so I'll leave that to someone else.

[Jester]

In the interest of fairness, I must point out that Superman has quite the list himself, but I'm not as big a fan, so I'll leave that to someone else.

A couple Robins/Batgirls, a butler, and a police force. Against *superman*. Seriously? That's Batman's clutch advantage? Superman could liquify the lot of them and be home before he left. That's not an army, it's a handful of friends.

Now, start divvying up the JLA, and you might get some allies worth having. But that would kind of defeat the whole "X vs. Y" thing.

-Jester

[Hammerskjold]

Not too shabby for a shut in loaner.

:D

Well, a shut in loaner with (keeping with current rate of inflation) probably a billion in the bank and running Wayne-corp, if not multi billionaire status, and the cool car, gadgets, and the kick-ass computer.

So the lesson here is, it's ok to be a shut in loaner with borderline psychopathic revenge tendencies running around in a cowl and belt full of tools, as long as you can afford it. Then you're just an eccentric with a overdeveloped sense of justice. :P

In the interest of fairness, I must point out that Superman has quite the list himself, but I'm not as big a fan, so I'll leave that to someone else.

I'm sure Kal-el has friends, but that rumor going around of him keeping look alike androids in his arctic fortress of solitude can be off putting to some folks I imagine.
http://dcanimated.wikia.com/wiki/Fortress_of_Solitude

Though giving it one last thought, cause I know I need to tear myself away from this discussion because it can be too much of a timesink that I can't afford right now, fun as it is. Maybe Supes one potential weakness can be said in one acronym.

I.N.S. Forget green kryptonite, does this 'Kal- el' have a green card?!

[Jester]

ps. On a sidenote, what did you think of the Watchmen comic vs movie. Specifically, the lack of you know what on the movie version.

I thought the Watchmen movie was a very-good-but-not-quite-excellent rendition of the book. The places where it stumbled tended to be where it added pointlessly to the book (the extended edition is worse than the theatrical release for this.)

The Comedian and Rorschach were highlights from the acting standpoint. Silk Spectre and Ozymandias could have been better, but were generally adequate. The portrayal of Ozymandias was slightly off, but that was a scripting and directing issue more than a problem with the performance.

They were clearly reaching to find action beats to add to the movie, and this meant making the heroes seem a lot more "super" than they should have been. Ozymandias and Dr. Manhattan were as powerful as was appropriate, as was Rorschach, but Silk Spectre, the Comedian and Nite Owl were all a bit too superhero-y.

The Nixon impersonation was a major low point. I don't know what they were thinking, but it was very excessive. The introduction/credits set to Dylan were an unexpected high point - especially the obvious-in-retrospect answer to "Who killed JFK?"

The changes to the ending were acceptable, and in some sense, fit better than the original story. But I still prefer the original overall.

On the whole, it was a remarkable attempt to film the almost unfilmable, and ranks as one of the all-time best superhero movies. (Admittedly, this is a genre that has only blossomed very recently, except for a few classics like the original Superman.)

As to the "you know what", I'm afraid I don't know what. What?

-Jester