Instance Design in Wrath

[Mordekhuul]

I was going to post this in a Terenas only thread, but hey, all thoughts are welcome. The way instances are designed and released in tier 9 has left a bad taste in my mouth.

Ulduar is in a weird place for us now. I'd like to focus on killing hard modes, but half of the incentive to go there is gone now that no one really needs gear from there.

We farm ToC25 in 1.5 hours or less each week, do a 30m Onyxia and a 15m Vault25, and then WTF are we to do for the other 9-10 hours of scheduled raids? We aren't quite strong enough to do even the first heroic mode ToC25 fight, so that leaves Ulduar25 for the sake of achievements and someday seeing Algalon....

Just seems more and more like bad design to me now and I attribute a lot of our low sign-ups these days to it. The TBC model seemed better to me....releasing two big instances simultaneously (SSC & TK, BT & CoT), no hard modes, just bosses that get harder the deeper you go.

The ToC instance design seems fine for elite guilds that make sure only the best players raid with them all the time and are able to jump right from their first full clears of ToC25 normal mode into heroic mode, but any average guild composed of a mix of great, mediocre, and a few poor players had each normal-mode ToC25 boss on farm the first week they killed it and can clear ToC25 in 1.5 hours, but is a light year from killing heroic beasts.

[shoju]

I was going to post this in a Terenas only thread, but hey, all thoughts are welcome. The way instances are designed and released in tier 9 has left a bad taste in my mouth.

Ulduar is in a weird place for us now. I'd like to focus on killing hard modes, but half of the incentive to go there is gone now that no one really needs gear from there.

We farm ToC25 in 1.5 hours or less each week, do a 30m Onyxia and a 15m Vault25, and then WTF are we to do for the other 9-10 hours of scheduled raids? We aren't quite strong enough to do even the first heroic mode ToC25 fight, so that leaves Ulduar25 for the sake of achievements and someday seeing Algalon....

Just seems more and more like bad design to me now and I attribute a lot of our low sign-ups these days to it. The TBC model seemed better to me....releasing two big instances simultaneously (SSC & TK, BT & CoT), no hard modes, just bosses that get harder the deeper you go.

The ToC instance design seems fine for elite guilds that make sure only the best players raid with them all the time and are able to jump right from their first full clears of ToC25 normal mode into heroic mode, but any average guild composed of a mix of great, mediocre, and a few poor players had each normal-mode ToC25 boss on farm the first week they killed it and can clear ToC25 in 1.5 hours, but is a light year from killing heroic beasts.

I agree 150% with what you said. We are in the same spot to an extent with Ulduar, and some of us are getting burnt out on the place.

I want to see Algalon down. The problem is, we go in there to work on hard modes, and we don't get the EoT's from ToC, very little of the gear is still needed (cloak from Vez, sword from XT is all I have left in there).

Even being one of the people who want to see algalon dead, I'm a little tired of the place. I'm tired of Flame Leviathan. I'm tired of Brann's voice.

As a 1 day a week raider (with sometimes additional days) it makes the lack of EoT's frustrating when it is an Uld night, and if it is a learning uld night, or something just doesn't go right it makes it just that much more frustrating.

We too seem to be a ways off from getting ToGC10 down. I'm sure if we 'stacked' a raid, we could, but that's not a very good solution either as it leads to hurt feelings and drama.

I'm hoping that the new 5 mans and ICC breathe some life into raiding and dungeons, but even that is at least 2 months out.

[Frag]

I rarely post on the official boards, as whenever I do I tend to leave people a bit defensive and need Conc to come save my ass (Props if you remember that:D). However, I did post when the T9 gearing system was announced and after we had figured out exactly how disparate the gearing curve between 25 and 10 man guilds was. When you combo the (now) nerfed instance on normal with the rather... crappy rewards (the ilvl is fine, but the purposely didn't itemize them perfectly AND didn't put into place a full suit from EoTs/ToC, which is compounded by the fact that some of the pieces they left out are only found on Uld HM's, which not everyone can just waltz in and knock out, still.) specifically in terms of how many badges you earn, the 'fun' of gearing up is just kinda gone and that's a lot of the raid 'game', good times with friends aside. Going back to my original point, this was kinda why I was against the badge-loot system: Long after you'd prefer to stop running something, if you know there's a chance that a picking up some offspec tier gear to help out your healing suit, you'd still stop and hope. With gearing from badges, it just feels like another grind, one that punishes people that don't play every day, offspecs and alts.

Proof pudding, Lurkers still doesn't have anyone with 4pc T9, and only a handful of us have 2pc but nowhere near as many as the alts (%wise) that Keepers do, because of how much harder it is to gear when you don't run 25m's (and PuG ToC's aren't going to happen on Terenas, just not that kinda culture).

Cheers,
~FragB)

[Kevin]

I agree that Uld is in a weird place. But I do like that hard modes are a different lock.

I think the issue is simply lack of content. The instances are short. I like the no trash to an extent, but trash does "lenghten" the place out. Though I wouldn't mind seeing it drop more money. :) Uld is pretty good on the amount of trash, expect for FL. It's too much time in vehicles. A bit too much getting to Hodir, and removing the one pack going to Mim was a good idea. Freya's room has a pull or two extra I think too.

Of course you have pros and cons to everything. But it is nice to know that you can just cruise a place to farm it show new folks content, etc and not be locked out of all the hard mode stuff. But if there isn't enough content with enough incentive you run into the problem Morde described.

What I'd like is the heroic versions that are a different lock, and then maybe a few Ulduareque hard modes that are optional in the normal. Those hard modes, if they keep the badge system, could drop 25 man level loot in 10's or at least drop trophies like with ToC or something. I don't want set's or BiS relying on them, but having them speed up the other grinds might work. Dunno.

The TBC system worked fairly well I thought too, though I would have liked more "modular" dungeons. Having a bit of choice on path, I like a lot since we rotate nights. Though the raid lock extensions could help some with that, it's just since they put the extensions in there hasn't been an instance that you really needed it for while learning the place.

I also agree that the idea of 10 man as a separate progression path is dead. The differences in speed of gearing and quality of gearing is just nuts and on Terenas PuG 25s don't happen horde side, it's not an option. I'm actually kinda glad that Keepers has open slots that we can get in every now and then. :) And having browsed the guildox progression stuff, Terenas Lurkers are one of the more progressed "10 man strict" giulds in the world (top 350) so it's pretty easy to see how different it is.

Sadly I really like 10 mans more, especially as a healer, it's much less whack a mole (again assuming you are all in 10 man gear if you take someone like Bolty in it's a joke but he has like 30 ilvls on average over a 10 man only healer) and less "regimented". Ah well.

[Sir_Die_alot]

The way instances are designed and released in tier 9 has left a bad taste in my mouth.

I'm not fond of t9 either. Probably for a few different and a few of the same reasons. Mostly the badge system but also they have easy mode and hard mode which is EXACTLY the same just hits harder with more hitpoints.

Ulduar is in a weird place for us now. I'd like to focus on killing hard modes, but half of the incentive to go there is gone now that no one really needs gear from there.

I think the mistake blizzard made here is that ulduar hard is harder than TOC normal. Is this a flaw with TOC or a flaw with ulduar? I know much of this talk is about 10 mans which are more just badge farm and the odd BIS piece for me so I kind of ignore them in my thinking. I do think that ulduar hard loot should be > TOC normal even if its only a slight amount.

We farm ToC25 in 1.5 hours or less each week, do a 30m Onyxia and a 15m Vault25, and then WTF are we to do for the other 9-10 hours of scheduled raids? We aren't quite strong enough to do even the first heroic mode ToC25 fight, so that leaves Ulduar25 for the sake of achievements and someday seeing Algalon....

This sounds like just bad management to me. If you're farming ToC25, you should be able to seriously work on TOTGC by now unless you have had some serious defection to other guilds. They are hard. You will wipe. But that's what makes the reward of killing it better. :)

Just seems more and more like bad design to me now and I attribute a lot of our low sign-ups these days to it. The TBC model seemed better to me....releasing two big instances simultaneously (SSC & TK, BT & CoT), no hard modes, just bosses that get harder the deeper you go.

Again I think this is management. If you haven't done something "hard mode" you have only done it as the "casual mode" blizzard put in the game so casual guilds could see content. Its going to be easier that way and that's how blizzard avoids pre BC naxx situations where most servers didn't see more than a couple wings of naxx dead before the expansion. Easy mode is easy by design. Ulduar I think was the best design thus far with this. Most fights are COMPLETELY different when done hard mode. TOTGC is the flawed one where the fights match exactly, they just up hitpoints damage and other minor aspects of fights.

The ToC instance design seems fine for elite guilds that make sure only the best players raid with them all the time and are able to jump right from their first full clears of ToC25 normal mode into heroic mode, but any average guild composed of a mix of great, mediocre, and a few poor players had each normal-mode ToC25 boss on farm the first week they killed it and can clear ToC25 in 1.5 hours, but is a light year from killing heroic beasts.

Again this is the flaw with TOTGC instead of simple ulduar hard modes. Being able to choose boss by boss is nice and they are doing this with icecrown but using the TOC model of higher hitpoints and damage. I think ulduar was the way to go because you double the fights in the game and though they use the same players they are still VERY different fights. Doing it fight by fight instead of the flawed TOTGC way lets the guilds that aren't super bad but aren't super 1337 do something other than farm 25 easy and stone wall on 25 hard. Saying simply there should be no hard modes I see as wrong though because then they would ALL be "hard modes". I think most guilds would be blocked on thorim or freya and never even seen general right now if blizzard had done it that way. The flaw is loot qualities. Once normal TOC 25 came out nobody needed anything out of ulduar 25, including the hard modes.

[Jester]

Saying simply there should be no hard modes I see as wrong though because then they would ALL be "hard modes". I think most guilds would be blocked on thorim or freya and never even seen general right now if blizzard had done it that way. The flaw is loot qualities. Once normal TOC 25 came out nobody needed anything out of ulduar 25, including the hard modes.

I'm not sure I understand this reasoning. Why would Blizzard design an instance to be unbeatable past the first half by everyone except the elite few? Haven't they said over and over that they want to move away from that model?

-Jester

[Mavfin]

I see more problems with people even in the 'easy mode' ToC-10 than I do the instance design. Same with Ulduar hardmodes. I see people coming to Ulduar hardmodes with the same mindset that they take to normal Jaraxxus, and that's not going to work in Ulduar for hardmodes.

You can coast through normal ToC-10, or you can try hardmodes with the 'old raid' mentality of actually working at it, but I'm not going to waste my time doing hardmodes if I can't count on the whole raid doing their best to learn and adjust as they work on the encounter, and I hate to say, lately I can't always count on that. I'm probably not alone, and I'm not going to go into any more specifics. Some nights it's there, and some nights it's not, and it's not always something you can see on a DPS meter or a WWS log.

As far as the gearing, yes, it's a PITA, but I still like the 10-man format. As long as the content is tuned for the gear I'm using/getting, I'm ok with that. The 25-mans aren't harder, I know that, having done both, but, the fact is, I would not stick around to watch the Lurkers on Terenas recruit to raid 25-mans again. Not worth the hassle to me.

[Sir_Die_alot]

I'm not sure I understand this reasoning. Why would Blizzard design an instance to be unbeatable past the first half by everyone except the elite few? Haven't they said over and over that they want to move away from that model?

-Jester

You're not misunderstanding anything except that was the point I was making exactly.:PMy point was most guilds wouldn't have completed ulduar with the classic WoW and BC instance design of no easy mode.

[Jester]

You're not misunderstanding anything except that was the point I was making exactly.:PMy point was most guilds wouldn't have completed ulduar with the classic WoW and BC instance design of no easy mode.

But you're assuming (in this counterfactual, only-one-difficulty world) that the hard mode is the "real" mode, and that the easy mode would simply be deleted. Wouldn't it be much more reasonable to assume, given their goals and past instance design, that they would have made the bosses somewhere in the middle in terms of difficulty? Probably ramping up from a few easy initial bosses to a middle-hard by the end, possibly with an Algalon "super challenge" boss for the elite?

-Jester

[shoju]

But you're assuming (in this counterfactual, only-one-difficulty world) that the hard mode is the "real" mode, and that the easy mode would simply be deleted. Wouldn't it be much more reasonable to assume, given their goals and past instance design, that they would have made the bosses somewhere in the middle in terms of difficulty? Probably ramping up from a few easy initial bosses to a middle-hard by the end, possibly with an Algalon "super challenge" boss for the elite?

-Jester

I didn't get to see a lot of the elite raids of TBC Pre-nerf (no BT, Hyjal, or SWP). But I thought that both TK and SSC were a good ramp up in difficulty. I have yet to see a normal mode fight that was on par with pre-3.0 Kael (I didn't see him pre-original nerf), or pre3.0 Vashj. A couple of them have been close (Mim, Yogg), but nothing was as big of a coordination check as those.

I like the idea of Ulduar Hard modes. I like the idea of a super elite boss that you can only unlock through hard modes. I like that we can run them 10 man instead of having to go back to 25 mans. I just wish that they would fix a couple of things in 10 man raiding, and a better path of progression into the raids. ToC is a complete and utter failure IMO. I don't like it. I don't like that

1.)Northrend Beasts - 2nd hardest normal boss
2.) Jarraxus - 3rd hardest boss
3.) Faction Champs - Hardest
4.) Twins - stupidly easy (5)
5.) anub - Not as easy as twins, but was a let down in how easy it was. (4)

I mean, we spent more time wiping and getting our first kill on Northrend Beasts than we did learning and getting our first kills on Jarraxus(30 minutes to an hour of work), Twins (1 shot), and Anub(2 shot) COMBINED. We spent 2+ hours to get Beasts down the first night. We hit Phase 3 on Anub the first time we saw him, died, went back in and killed him. I believe that the first night they went after Twins was without a full knowledge of the mechanics of the fight as well. I think they knew colors, and that there was a switch involved, and that was it. a complete 1 shot.

I really hope that ICC has some of the 10 man problems fixed. Itemization, and availability of gear is dreadful at times in 10 man settings, Some of the hard modes are overtuned (I will admit, nothing is as overtuned as S3D10 was), and some 10 man raiders are incredibly frustrated that 10 man raiding isn't the "separate path of progression" that it was advertised to be (myself included).

Sorry I got off topic there, but yes. I agree that I liked the idea of the bosses going from


Easy first -> super hard last boss in TBC better than I like T9 content.

[Lissa]

I was going to post this in a Terenas only thread, but hey, all thoughts are welcome. The way instances are designed and released in tier 9 has left a bad taste in my mouth.

Ulduar is in a weird place for us now. I'd like to focus on killing hard modes, but half of the incentive to go there is gone now that no one really needs gear from there.

We farm ToC25 in 1.5 hours or less each week, do a 30m Onyxia and a 15m Vault25, and then WTF are we to do for the other 9-10 hours of scheduled raids? We aren't quite strong enough to do even the first heroic mode ToC25 fight, so that leaves Ulduar25 for the sake of achievements and someday seeing Algalon....

Just seems more and more like bad design to me now and I attribute a lot of our low sign-ups these days to it. The TBC model seemed better to me....releasing two big instances simultaneously (SSC & TK, BT & CoT), no hard modes, just bosses that get harder the deeper you go.

The ToC instance design seems fine for elite guilds that make sure only the best players raid with them all the time and are able to jump right from their first full clears of ToC25 normal mode into heroic mode, but any average guild composed of a mix of great, mediocre, and a few poor players had each normal-mode ToC25 boss on farm the first week they killed it and can clear ToC25 in 1.5 hours, but is a light year from killing heroic beasts.

The problem you're seeing isn't with instance design of Wrath instances, it's the fact that Blizzard did not have proper filler between the gap of Ulduar to Icecrown Citadel. Next time you take a fall down to Anub, have someone case levitate or slow fall on you and look to the south. Then when you kill Anub, take a look to the east of his chamber. You'll realize then that TotC wasn't the planned raid instance, there were going to do something with the Nerubians (something that Blizzard has originally talked about before Wrath came out, but scaled back considerably). TotC is something to try and tide people over to Icecrown (probably coming around the end of December, early January), the problem is, it's not even tiding more people over (Avarice's two 10 man teams already have completed Tribute to Mad Skill and will likely see one of the two teams getting Insanity this coming lock or the lock after, the early group has already reached Anub once with 50 attempts remaining), and Avarice is now doing two runs of TotC 25 normal to get everyone decked in 245 gear to make a very serious push at TotGC 25.

Also, the hard mode loot from Ulduar 25 is equal to the TotC 25/TotGC 10 drops. It may show as 6 ilvls lower, but the itemization was well done (another reason why you realize that TotC was rushed out as filler). Many items from the Hard Mode Ulduar 25 are still better than a good number of the 245 pieces from TotC (and there are even some items, like the Pennant Cloak from Sarth +2 25 which takes an insanity cloak or cloak from TotGC 25 to beat it because of it's itemization). In essence, everything about TotC screams rushed while the other intsances have not been.

[WimpySmurf]

some 10 man raiders are incredibly frustrated that 10 man raiding isn't the "separate path of progression" that it was advertised to be (myself included).

If they really wanted 10man to be a separate progression path they'd have made it so you get 1 normal mode lockout and 1 hard mode lockout per week and you can pick the size 10 v. 25. Then have the exact same loot like what they did for heroic vs. normal, just scaled down so you got something like ilvl 237,245 normal and 250,258 hard (10man,25man).

-WimpySmurf

[Mordekhuul]

If they really wanted 10man to be a separate progression path they'd have made it so you get 1 normal mode lockout and 1 hard mode lockout per week and you can pick the size 10 v. 25. Then have the exact same loot like what they did for heroic vs. normal, just scaled down so you got something like ilvl 237,245 normal and 250,258 hard (10man,25man).

-WimpySmurf

I'm not sure anyone would ever run 25 man instances if they did that, except maybe to PUG older tiered 25 mans for achievements.

[shoju]

If they really wanted 10man to be a separate progression path they'd have made it so you get 1 normal mode lockout and 1 hard mode lockout per week and you can pick the size 10 v. 25. Then have the exact same loot like what they did for heroic vs. normal, just scaled down so you got something like ilvl 237,245 normal and 250,258 hard (10man,25man).

-WimpySmurf

This is what I want.

I'm not sure anyone would ever run 25 man instances if they did that, except maybe to PUG older tiered 25 mans for achievements.

I don't know, would Keepers drop down to 2 10 man teams in a situation like this?

I personally appreciate 10 man content because it puts more on each raider. Each raider needs to be aware, know what they are doing, have the gear, and do it.

I'm sure that there would be more 10 man raids than 25 man raids, but I don't know if I see it as a bad thing.

[Sir_Die_alot]

But you're assuming (in this counterfactual, only-one-difficulty world) that the hard mode is the "real" mode, and that the easy mode would simply be deleted. Wouldn't it be much more reasonable to assume, given their goals and past instance design, that they would have made the bosses somewhere in the middle in terms of difficulty? Probably ramping up from a few easy initial bosses to a middle-hard by the end, possibly with an Algalon "super challenge" boss for the elite?

-Jester

Past instance design like Kael and Vashj? Magtheridon? Razorgore and Vael? Pre WOTLK they didn't have a problem putting in serious blocks that completely halted progression, though they later nerfed those in BC for the bad idea they were. So maybe NOW they wouldn't do that but that's the point.:)

[Jester]

Past instance design like Kael and Vashj? Magtheridon? Razorgore and Vael? Pre WOTLK they didn't have a problem putting in serious blocks that completely halted progression, though they later nerfed those in BC for the bad idea they were. So maybe NOW they wouldn't do that but that's the point.:)

Kael and Vashj come at the end of instances, not the beginning. Hydross started crazy, but got nerfed pretty quick. Lurker was easy, and so was Tidewalker. Leotheras and Karathress were probably in the middle somewhere. Alar was moderate, and the other two were easy. Most of the bosses in those two instances weren´t anywhere near up to the level of the current Hard bosses in Ulduar - except the end boss challenges.

Mags was way overtuned, and Blizzard has said as much. Gruul wasn´t, though. I note you didn´t even bother mentioning Hyjal and BT, neither of whch stopped the elite guilds for more than a few weeks, except for Archimonde. Illidan was easy enough they actually had to buff him. Both those instances started to drop like rocks once Blizzard pulled out the Vashj/Kael requirement.

Razorgore and Vael were pretty crazy, but that´s going back a ways. And once you got the gear, even Vael wasn´t that bad. The entirety of MC wasn´t very tough, and the bosses between Vael and Chrommagus were pretty easy, or at least not up to the level of the modern Hard Mode. (Okay, Firemaw was finicky. But not really brutal.)

Guilds I´ve raided with (conveniently, the ones here, KotD and Lurkers) brought down those earlier instances, although usually quite late in the patch cycle. These same guilds are getting seriously pounded on modern Hard Modes.

-Jester

[shoju]

Guilds I´ve raided with (conveniently, the ones here, KotD and Lurkers) brought down those earlier instances, although usually quite late in the patch cycle. These same guilds are getting seriously pounded on modern Hard Modes.

-Jester

I wont speak for KotD as I don't raid with them that much, but I will say that we Terenas Lurkers can Full Clear ToC10 with a wipe or 2, 90 minutes in and out, but our best attempt on ToGC has been first worm Burrow in P2 when it all went to hell and that just happened last night. Many times we are getting stomped at the end of P1.

[Sir_Die_alot]

Kael and Vashj come at the end of instances, not the beginning. Hydross started crazy, but got nerfed pretty quick. Lurker was easy, and so was Tidewalker. Leotheras and Karathress were probably in the middle somewhere. Alar was moderate, and the other two were easy. Most of the bosses in those two instances weren´t anywhere near up to the level of the current Hard bosses in Ulduar - except the end boss challenges.

Kael and Vashj are about as many bosses into progression as middle ulduar. It wasn't until this post I realized that. I think we are both probably a bit spoiled by WOTLK bosses that die the first night they are tried.

Mags was way overtuned, and Blizzard has said as much. Gruul wasn´t, though. I note you didn´t even bother mentioning Hyjal and BT, neither of whch stopped the elite guilds for more than a few weeks, except for Archimonde. Illidan was easy enough they actually had to buff him. Both those instances started to drop like rocks once Blizzard pulled out the Vashj/Kael requirement.

Mags was overtuned. So are some hardmodes but most people don't complain about it because they are not required to progress. The only one I can think of that has been nerfed rather than "fixed" is mimron.

Razorgore and Vael were pretty crazy, but that´s going back a ways. And once you got the gear, even Vael wasn´t that bad. The entirety of MC wasn´t very tough, and the bosses between Vael and Chrommagus were pretty easy, or at least not up to the level of the modern Hard Mode. (Okay, Firemaw was finicky. But not really brutal.)

Vael wasn't bad after that time because people had learned to do him and yes gear made the fight shorter. I'm not sure how that is different from a current hard mode. In fact it sounds exactly like them. :P

Guilds I´ve raided with (conveniently, the ones here, KotD and Lurkers) brought down those earlier instances, although usually quite late in the patch cycle. These same guilds are getting seriously pounded on modern Hard Modes.

-Jester

I'm sure those guilds could do most of the hard modes in ulduar but choose not to put in the effort because its not required. The mechanics of the hard modes are not more extreme than things they have accomplished before. Case in point the hard pre wotlk bosses I listed. How long did the guilds you raided with spend on those bosses?:)

[Klaus]

How long did the guilds you raided with spend on those bosses?:)

Yes, we spent quite a long time working on Vashj. But I never felt we were undergeared for it - just that we needed to coordinate properly. Failures were an issues of strategy and execution. Working on HToC beasts last night, I felt like the tanks were barely on the edge of success. Any little tiny issue with the healers and a tank went -splat- from full to dead. Vashj and Kael and the others never felt that way to me. Vael did, but only because it was a gimmick fight. If you didn't have the resist gear, you were in trouble.

My issue with the way it's designed is that normal-mode TOC is so easy, and heroic is a total wall. On top of that, the first boss in heroic is one of the hardest. It doesn't bother me that we can't finish heroic-10 yet, but we can't even get past the first encounter!

[shoju]

Any little tiny issue with the healers and a tank went -splat- from full to dead. Vashj and Kael and the others never felt that way to me. Vael did, but only because it was a gimmick fight. If you didn't have the resist gear, you were in trouble.

Case in Point = Fire Bomb + Snobold on paladin healer = both tanks + healer dead in 5 seconds.

I got the fire bomb, then the snobold inside of a GCD (heal going to tank when they landed). Before the heal finished, the fire bomb landed, the snobold stunned me, I dropped, and then the tanks crumpled.

Any time that I got a snobold, things went really bad really fast. Fire bombs weren't 'as' bad but if I got targeted with a Fire bomb moving to reposistion, heal myself, and get back to the tanks it could be a quick fail.

I'm sure that part of that is me, but man that is BRUTAL timing.