Now I know why plumbers make the money they do

[DeeBye]

When I bought this house back in September, I inherited 3 pretty dodgy toilets. The mechanisms in them all had issues of one sort or another. I am certainly no toilet plumber, so I pretty much let them be and just dealt with it. Our main floor toilet in particular was the worst offender. It ran every 15 minutes or so. Something was leaky in there, but I didn't know what. All I knew was that it was getting worse as time went on. I had my brother-in-law replace something called a "flapper", but that was apparently not the issue because the sucker still ran. Today I got hit with a water bill that was $20 higher than last month, so it was time to act.

Let me go into this by saying that I know absolutely nothing about fixing leaky toilets. The extent of my knowledge is "jiggle the handle a little bit and see if that works".

With my wife by my side giving me not-so-gentle encouragement, I went to work. I opened up the lid and assessed the situation. I had no idea what I was looking at so I figured a complete format and reinstall was in order. I was going to rip the guts out of this bastard and insert new ones. The first thing I did was turn the water off to the toilet. As I was doing this, I noticed a little drip coming from the water supply valve. In the toilet plumbing industry, this is known as a "bad thing". It wasn't a bad drip and it stopped when I closed the valve completely, but it was an omen of things to come.

So after I drained the water from the tank, I set about removing the old stuff. I could tell that someone tried to fix it because none of the little parts fit right. The looks of it screamed spare parts and "oh god I hope this works". I got the old float mechanism dealie out without too much trouble, but I noticed that to replace the thingie that houses the flapper I would have to separate the tank from the bowl. This concerned me a bit because I was fairly sure the two were supposed to be hermetically sealed to each other, and I had no confidence in my ability to secure them back together. I expressed my concerns to my wife, who plainly stated, "Go for it. What's the worst that can happen?". I said, "I screw this up and we have to call a plumber to fix it.". That's when I saw how right she was. If I didn't make an all-out attempt to fix this toilet and succeed, we would have to call a plumber anyways. I really had nothing to lose, so I disassembled the whole shebang.

It took me way too long to remove the flapper assembly from the tank. I ended up having to break the plastic nut and tear the sucker off. I was getting angry at my toilet, but in a good "I'm gonna kick your ass" way. I was going to beat this toilet into submission. I was very careful about not damaging the porcelain though. Replacing the guts of a toilet is one thing, but replacing the whole toilet itself is quite another. While I was removing the parts, bits of it were just sloughing off. All manner of what used to be rubber seals and washers were only held on by a hope and a prayer. This reinforced my decision to just pull it all apart and start from scratch. The date stamped into the lid of my toilet read 1962, which is when my house was built.

With old parts in hand, we sped off to Home Depot in search of replacement. This was my first trip there tonight.

There was a fairly helpful grey mustachioed fellow named Steve in the toilet aisle. He saw our old and busted parts and showed us what new stuff we'd need to replace it. We picked up a new flapper and overflow assembly and a new inlet valve doohickey that vaguely resembled what we had. Home Depot had a pretty informative cutaway toilet showing how these things worked and I studied it. Steve walked me through removing the old stuff (what the heck? I already removed it and the proof is in the form of the dirty old corroded toilet guts I am showing you) and how to install the new stuff. Apparently I just hand-tighten it all in and it works. Awesome! We walk out of there $30 poorer but bearing toilet trinkets.

When we got home I set about installing these plastic toilet oddities. The flapper and overflow valve went in just fine. The other bit with the float dealie also went in just fine. I did this all while the tank was still separated from the bowl. When I thought about how I was going to re-seat the tank on the bowl, I knew I screwed up. One of the bits that disintegrated during disassembly was the rubber gasket that seals the tank to the bowl. I was getting angrier and wished I could pour a shot or two of the single malt scotch I got for Christmas, but I had some driving to do.

Back to Home Depot for trip number two.

I studied the replacement gasket selection for about 30 minutes before I settled on one. Nothing looked exactly what I removed, but I (apparently correctly) figured that the inside diameter of the gasket should equal the outside diameter of the new flapper assembly I just installed. The gasket was about $6.

I got the new gasket on without incident, so I settled the tank on the bowl. The gasket looked good and looked like it might make a watertight seal to the bowl. I then looked at the bolt holes, and the old bolts. It was then that I realized I needed to make another trip to Home Depot. The old bolt holes had bits of old rubber washer stuck to them, and the bolts had the other bits of old rubber washer. I needed new rubber washers or there was going to be a torrent of water in my bathroom.

Back to Home Depot for trip number three.

I found the correct sized washers, but I had to buy them in a package with new brass bolts and corresponding hardware. That was okay by me, because I was dead-set on just making everything but the tank and bowl new. This hardware package cost me $5.

When I got home I set about re-reading the installation instructions. Every other line screamed out "DO NOT OVER-TIGHTEN! DO NOT OVER-TIGHTEN!" so I was very conservative about how much I cranked down on the nuts that secured that tank to the bowl. The LAST thing I wanted to do was crack the tank or bowl.

After I got everything secured down as tight as I was comfortable making it, I turned on the water and prayed to [insert god-of-choice here]. The first thing I noticed was water streaming out of the water supply valve, and the second thing I noticed was water pouring out of the bottom of the tank, right where one of the bolts secured the tank to the bowl. In my mind, this was "WORST CASE SCENARIO". I had two leaks, and one of them was from the water supply valve. The only way I could shut it off was to shut the water off completely to my house. In my panic I fiddled with the water supply enough to slow it to a slow drip. I didn't let it run long enough to fill the toilet tank so I just stuck a milk jug behind the toilet to catch the water leaking out from back there.

I was utterly defeated. I followed all of the instructions and was as careful as I could be, but I turned a slow toilet leak into two separate floods. That was it for me. I was not going to touch that toilet again. I got angry at it and gave it my all, but I was a complete failure.

My wife took pity on my poor pathetic emasculated self and called a friend of hers. She poured me a drink, because I sure needed one. I was envisioning the outrageous bill I would surely receive from a plumber.

My wife called a friend of hers that is married to a handyman. His name is Herman, and I officially love Herman. He arrived at our house less than ten minutes after her call and set right to work. He asked me to shut the water off at the main house supply valve. After that was done, he extracted the valve cartridge from the toilet water supply and wrapped the threads with Teflon tape. That fixed the water supply leak. He turned on the water to the toilet and remarked that the everything looked good but I just didn't tighten down the bolts enough. He cranked them down harder, and now everything was awesome. The toilet on my main floor is as good as new.

Herman said that I did just fine with the toilet repair. The only thing I screwed up with was that I didn't tighten the bolts down hard enough to force an effective seal between the brass bolts and rubber washers. The water supply leak wasn't anything I did wrong, but now I know how to fix that kind of problem after watching Herman work.

I am honestly looking forward to replacing the guts of my other two toilets now. The one downstairs is talking smack about me and it needs a serious beatdown.

[--Pete]

Hi,

I am honestly looking forward to replacing the guts of my other two toilets now. The one downstairs is talking smack about me and it needs a serious beatdown.

Oh oh! I think the DYI bug has stricken another. Next thing you know, you'll be haunting the tool aisle at Home Depot and drooling over bowl setters and LP torches. And looking for things to fix, repair, upgrade, or just plain mess with.

Good on ya -- sweat equity is the best equity;)

--Pete

[DeeBye]

Good on ya -- sweat equity is the best equity;)

I can't wait until the warmer weather comes and I can fiddle with my swimming pool.

[ShadowHM]

I can't wait until the warmer weather comes and I can fiddle with my swimming pool.

Once the bug bites, you never recover. :lol: There are always new horizons out there.

[Occhidiangela]

Once the bug bites, you never recover. :lol: There are always new horizons out there.

Deebye needs go see the Old Tim Allen stand up routines, the ones before Home Improvement. And he needs to start shopping at Sears. :)

"Hoo hoo hoo?"

Occhi

[DeeBye]

Deebye needs go see the Old Tim Allen stand up routines, the ones before Home Improvement. And he needs to start shopping at Sears. :)

"Hoo hoo hoo?"

Occhi

Home Depot is where it's at.

I felt like a manly man today when I was sitting upon my proud throne of accomplishment. I also like the new acoustics of the refitted toilet. It flushes like a shotgun.

I may attempt toilet number 2 tonight.

[krishta]

As I was doing this, I noticed a little drip coming from the water supply valve. In the toilet plumbing industry, this is known as a "bad thing". It wasn't a bad drip and it stopped when I closed the valve completely, but it was an omen of things to come.

Augh! I despise those nasty cheap shutoffs that almost always end up leaking instead of actually doing their job! Whenever I take apart the plumbing I replace any shutoffs in the work area with ball valves. The last battle I fought with the Plumbing Gods was a far worse disaster than yours DeeBye. I ended up replacing the toilet after trying a couple of times to fix or replace the guts. I suspect that older toilets work quite well with generic guts, but the <expletive deleted> semi-modern thing in our upstairs bathroom did not.

I'm glad you won your first battle. It gives me hope that some day I too will win.

Krishta

[kandrathe]

Home Depot is where it's at.

I felt like a manly man today when I was sitting upon my proud throne of accomplishment. I also like the new acoustics of the refitted toilet. It flushes like a shotgun.

I may attempt toilet number 2 tonight.

I once helped my father retrofit a house for hot water baseboard heaters. There were hundreds of soldered joints in six shutoff zones. So, zone by zone we had to test them to insure sound joints. That was one of the worst plumbing nightmares I've ever done. 2nd place was replacing this home grown vanity with a *real* one and consequential moving of a sink some inches further right from its previous location, then planning, buying and refitting the drain pipes. There is a reason for a whole profession called "pipe fitter".

[DeeBye]

Augh! I despise those nasty cheap shutoffs that almost always end up leaking instead of actually doing their job! Whenever I take apart the plumbing I replace any shutoffs in the work area with ball valves. The last battle I fought with the Plumbing Gods was a far worse disaster than yours DeeBye. I ended up replacing the toilet after trying a couple of times to fix or replace the guts. I suspect that older toilets work quite well with generic guts, but the <expletive deleted> semi-modern thing in our upstairs bathroom did not.

I'm glad you won your first battle. It gives me hope that some day I too will win.

I don't think the problem with the shutoffs is that they were cheap. In fact, they seem to be pretty high quality brass fittings. They certainly seem beefier than the replacement valves I saw at Home Depot, most of which were made of mostly plastic. They are just old and probably haven't been used in more than 20 years.

I did toilet number 2 today, which was the upstairs toilet. After the main floor toilet, this one is used the most. It suffered from the "jiggly handle" syndrome, in that the flapper wouldn't completely close after being flushed. This caused it to run if you didn't check on it after flushing, which was the case when my son uses it in the middle of the night (curse his tiny toddler bladder :angry:). The mechanisms were also a smattering of old and new parts that didn't fit quite right, so I once again decided to replace everything.

Once again the shutoff valve gave me fits. After turning it off and on again a couple of times, it leaked. I attempted to replace it with something new, but the Home Depot people were once again not quite helpful enough and suggested I just buy a new rubber washer. I liked the fact that a package of washers was only $1, but the washer in my old valve cartridge was not removable. I would have preferred to replace the whole thing, but after some liberal use of teflon tape and a couple hours of swearing I managed to get it down to a small drip every 15 minutes or so. I'm going to replace every crappy shutoff valve in this house as soon as I can, probably with ball valves (thanks for the tip on that). Unless I learn how to effectively solder copper pipe fittings in a hurry, I'll probably call a plumber or lure Herman in with a case of beer.

The toilet gut replacement went fantastically. Everything fit and worked the first time. I certainly learned a lot from my first attempt. Instead of buying separate parts, I bought a complete toilet repair kit for $30 that included absolutely everything I needed including all of the bolts and rubber seals and washers. It even came with a new handle assembly, which I really needed because the old one had a habit of falling off.

I had no leaks whatsoever, except for the very slow and almost unnoticeable drip from the shutoff valve which will be replaced shortly.

What did I learn from all this? Well, for starters it will take you approximately 5 times longer than you think. You will also require the following tools and accessories:

• Adjustable wrench (if you must fiddle with the shutoff valve, you might need two) <>
  
• Flat head screwdriver <>
  
• Hacksaw <>
  
• Adjustable pliers capable of handling a 3" fitting <>
  
• A million rags <>
  
• Alcoholic beverages<>
  [st]

[--Pete]

Hi,

Unless I learn how to effectively solder copper pipe fittings in a hurry, I'll probably call a plumber or lure Herman in with a case of beer.

Get a good LP torch. Get the little attachment that goes over the end of the torch and deflects the flame (that'll save you repainting a wall or to:)). Get a *good* pipe cutter and learn how to use it right (mostly, go slow so that you cut the pipe without deforming it). Get a pack of ~100 grit abrasive (I like emery). Get a jar of flux/solder pre-mixed paste. Get a couple of feet of 3/8" copper pipe and a handful of L fittings. Practice soldering the Ls onto the end of the pipe, then cutting off the end and repeating. After about 8 or 10 joints, you'll have it down pat.

When actually working on a real pipe, two things that really help are that the pipe be empty of water (you'll never get it hot enough to melt the copper otherwise) and that the metal be clean (that's what the abrasive paper is for).

The ability to fix your own pipes will pay for itself many times over. Besides, it's kind of fun.

Oh, and BTW: get a good fire extinguisher. Keep it handy (as in within arm's reach) anytime you're working with an open flame. As the wallboard is burning is *not* a good time to look for the extinguisher;)

--Pete

[DeeBye]

The ability to fix your own pipes will pay for itself many times over. Besides, it's kind of fun.

You've got me intrigued about this now. I'd certainly love to be able to solder my own copper pipes. What do you think a getup like what you described might cost me?

[the Langolier]

...and the second thing I noticed was water pouring out of the bottom of the tank, right where one of the bolts secured the tank to the bowl.

My first thought woud of course been: "tighten the bolt".

[kandrathe]

You've got me intrigued about this now. I'd certainly love to be able to solder my own copper pipes. What do you think a getup like what you described might cost me?

Not much. < $50

Check out --> How to Solder Copper Pipes

[--Pete]

Hi,

You've got me intrigued about this now. I'd certainly love to be able to solder my own copper pipes. What do you think a getup like what you described might cost me?

As kandrathe said, not much. The biggest expense is the LP torch (link for graphics only), and that has so many uses you'll want one anyway. If you disconnect the torch from the tank between uses you'll not lose much gas to leaks, and a tank will last for years unless you've got a hobby application. The one thing I'd recommend is to stay away from the 'self-igniting' models. The igniters are piezoelectric and, at least in my experience, break down after just a few uses. The old welder's flint and steel cup works fine and I've had the one I'm using for about 45 years now. Just replace the flint as needed.

--Pete

[DeeBye]

My first thought woud of course been: "tighten the bolt".

I missed this the first time around but it deserves a proper reply.

The bolt in question was at the lowest point of the tank. That's where any leak in the tank would have dripped from. There were two other bolts and the tank-to-bowl gasket that could have been the cause of the leak. I honestly couldn't tell where it was originating from. The whole underside of the tank was wet and the water collected and dripped from the low bolt.

[SpazBear]

'Lo, Pete: You're <strike>not the guy to nitpick </strike> someone I admire, but melting copper? I'd think you'd need MAPS gas to melt/braze copper together, tho I've not tried it.

I've had much better luck with piezeo's than you. I like them because I don't spend 15 minutes hunting for the damn flint, only to burn my fingers using a Bic to start my torch when I'm unsuccessful in finding it. The downside to the piezeo is it emits one spark per stroke, while a flint throws off a shower.

To DeeBye: My 2 cents of experience here, for what it's worth (only $0.02):

Cleanliness -- the biggest factor in getting a good joint. Scour, wash, wipe. A acetone rinse will degrease nicely prior to soldering. Use soft silver-based solders. Granted, it's a toilet, but why introduce lead into your household unnecessarily? Silver doesn't cost much more.

Chemicals -- don't use those blue-water drop-in-the-tank things! They eat away rubber parts (like your flapper and tank/bowl gasket) at an accelerated rate. Dirty bowl? Use Sani-FLush & a brush regularly. Don't get lazy. Don't tell Mrs. DeeBye to do it. I clean the bathrooms in my house. I would eat out of my toilets after cleaning them.

You have a pool? I highly reccommend this site for the cheapskate in you. A little knowledge of basic chemistry can save you big bucks, even if they're loonies you're saving.....

[DeeBye]

As kandrathe said, not much. The biggest expense is the LP torch (link for graphics only), and that has so many uses you'll want one anyway. If you disconnect the torch from the tank between uses you'll not lose much gas to leaks, and a tank will last for years unless you've got a hobby application. The one thing I'd recommend is to stay away from the 'self-igniting' models. The igniters are piezoelectric and, at least in my experience, break down after just a few uses. The old welder's flint and steel cup works fine and I've had the one I'm using for about 45 years now. Just replace the flint as needed.

I am afraid that I will light my house on fire if I use one of these :o

[--Pete]

Hi,

'Lo, Pete: You're <strike>not the guy to nitpick </strike> someone I admire, but melting copper? I'd think you'd need MAPS gas to melt/braze copper together, tho I've not tried it.

If I've given the impression that an LP torch will melt copper pipe, then indeed I need to be nit picked, because it can't. However, I don't see where I might have given that impression.

Let me second you on the silver solder bit. Especially now that lead solder can no longer be used on water pipes in most places. And cleanliness is indeed paramount, which is why I use both abrasives and flux to clean the joints.

--Pete

[ZatarRufus]

When actually working on a real pipe, two things that really help are that the pipe be empty of water (you'll never get it hot enough to melt the copper otherwise) ...

(Italics mine).

Pete, I think you intended to say "solder".

The technique to remember is to heat the copper pipe so it is hot enough to melt the solder. Heating the solder directly with the flame won't allow the solder to flow into the joint.

ZR

[--Pete]

Hi,

Pete, I think you intended to say "solder".

Right you are, and also my apologies to SpazBear. Talk about being willfully blind, I must have re-read my posts three times to see where I could have said something about melting copper, and missed it all three (as well as screwing up originally).

--Pete