A terrible, terrible tragedy.

[Tal]

Given the amount of preparation (36 days ago) lack of options in purchasing a weapon would not have prevented this tragedy.

[Nystul]

Maybe in America you can impress people with this 'marines' and 'guns' stuff......but we all know that you don't become a rough guy just because of some job.
I understand that training makes you better, of course very true, no need to explain but this almost being in love with your marines (which also a lot of dutch people seem to be) sounds a bit silly to me.

The willingness to do the job is what makes them rough guys. It isn't necessarily a complimentary term. But since there will always be those who are willing to use violence for their own gain, the only way to maintain peace and civility (divine intervention aside) is by having those who are willing to use violence to protect that peace. I'm sure there are some corrupt individuals within the USMC who do not deserve to be put on a pedestal, but those who perform their duties with integrity deserve all the praise they get. For the sake of our protection, they may have to kill someone, or they may have to die trying, and neither is something to be taken lightly.

But the Marines, police, and other professionals are not the only line of defense. Where they do not succeed, others must step forward.

[Tal]

The willingness to do the job is what makes them rough guys. It isn't necessarily a complimentary term. But since there will always be those who are willing to use violence for their own gain, the only way to maintain peace and civility (divine intervention aside) is by having those who are willing to use violence to protect that peace. I'm sure there are some corrupt individuals within the USMC who do not deserve to be put on a pedestal, but those who perform their duties with integrity deserve all the praise they get. For the sake of our protection, they may have to kill someone, or they may have to die trying, and neither is something to be taken lightly.

But the Marines, police, and other professionals are not the only line of defense. Where they do not succeed, others must step forward.

Thank you for that.

-Tal USMC

[Doc]

Thank you for that.

-Tal USMC

Semper Fi, and thank you for your service and dedication you Devil Dog you.

Not a Marine, but I have nothing but respect for them.

[Tal]

Semper Fi, and thank you for your service and dedication you Devil Dog you.

Not a Marine, but I have nothing but respect for them.

Thanks Doc

[Occhidiangela]

many great things, ending with . . .

Taking the initiative— the outright risks may daunt you, but don't be fooled by the illusion of assured safety that passive endurance presents you. It's better to end up naked yet victorious, instead of being beaten in your clothes.

(Yes, I realized that I just went from medieval sword combat to a double entendre) :huh:

Super post, Rhyd.:)

As Kembai Shimata would say: "If we only defend, we lose the war." (Seven Samurai, Kurosawa)

Occhi

[Occhidiangela]

Because I want to keep things nice here, I up front state the following post is very ironic.
Wow Doc I'm so impressed and amazed that I have fallen in love with you....6 shots in 2 seconds....
Most of them however are very average or below average people. And there are the ones that come back from Irak, handicapped and that have the honor to recover in Walter Reed.

You are talking out of your ass, eppie. You are also straying from the topic at hand.

STFU, unless you get about 2000 euros, and rent a clue.

Occhi

[Occhidiangela]

You know Occhi, that's the first sensibly argument I've heard against locking-down the school. You may have just changed my mind about it... but I doubt it.

===================

I fear this will certainly not be the last of its kind. I grieve for all.

On the first bit, how experienced are you in practical law enforecement?

On the second, I fear you are right. Live your life with no regrets, each day, so that if your day comes sooner, rather than later, you've given a good accounting of yourself. That, at least, is within your power to control, where so much in this life is not.

Occhi

[eppie]

I think you fail to appreciate how much dicipline goes into learning to shoot like that. Shooting from the hip and aquiring new targets in a fraction of a second with your hands... Men that can do this have won wars and saved lives... A good marksman can save lives in hostage situations by nailing the target and not nailing the hostages... For every bit of evil you can think of, I can think of the good to match it. I've saved countless numbers of livestock, cows, goats, chickens, lambs, helpless cute little animals by a good clean shot to remove something threatening them. God himself only knows how many snakes I've had to snipe, and how many lives have been effected by my efforts.

People I have trained to shoot have gone on to do some great things themselves. They don't go around blowing people's heads off... Nor do they have accidents with firearms like so many seem to do.

Guns are not evil. They are tools. Objects. People killed each other with pointy sticks, and those weren't evil either. Just the people using them.

I don't fail to appreciate that. I'm not thinking it is not good or something. I just don't care too much about it, and I for sure think a thread about a mass murder is not the right place to discuss this......well actually, if yu don'tmnd, I don't mind.

Of course I know it is people using guns that kill people. And because on a population of 250 million there are bound to be several 1000 nutcases statistiscally I don't find it a good idea that guns are sold everywhere (but you know my opinion).
People that produce and sell guns are evil though.:wacko:

[eppie]

Having said that, the real blame lies on one sick, demented individual, and nothing more. I'm glad he's dead. I only wish he had taken his issues out on solely himself, but we didn't have that luxury this time around.

The saddest thing about all this? There'll be another, sooner or later. And another after that.

Yes because if people all, like you, just state......it is the fault of this sick demented individual...now let's get on with our life, nothing will change. There will always be sick individuals as long as there are humans.

'Let's just focus all our anger on this guy....o we are so happy he is dead, so much so that we almost have a good feeling from this whole incident.'

With that attitude things will continue happening. Allthough it is of course totally the fault of this guy....there are other factors that play a role. If we can think about those factors we might start getting a safer world, just blame everything on the weirdo might be good for the feeling...it doesn't help a single bit.

[eppie]

You are talking out of your ass, eppie. You are also straying from the topic at hand.

STFU, unless you get about 2000 euros, and rent a clue.

Occhi

Ok but when we are talking about US troops in Irak killing innocent bystanders, you can pull the one about who scary and bad it is to be 'working' there. So scary that sometimes they lose control and start shooting.
Which one is it going to be?


I do must say I respect that people are going to war for (I wanted to say us but I mean the republicans) but if it is all bravery? I don't think so. If it is in the US like in Holland (professional army) you see that the army unlike 20 years ago now consists of mainly the lower socio economic groups. And that is a sad thing. The people that gain the least from a free country do all the work. There will of course also be a small group of ideological rough good-doers, but I think they are a minority.

[the Langolier]

Holding a gun and shooting randomly is one thing... Being well trained and having deadly marksmanship is another... With but a lowly revolver I can squeeze off six shots in about 2 seconds, and hit a different target with each shot. I practice with clay ducks being shot at me. So if I miss, I get a broken rib or some other painful punishment for my failure.

Youtube.com. We live in a day where can you show it, not say it. Anyways...

Events like this make we wonder what the people involved were doing, exactly. Does anyone think to themselves, "maybe I should try to tackle this guy" or what? How many people does it take to overpower a wigged-out engineering student - I mean we are generally not exactly NCAA MVPs. What is the worst that can happen? You got shot and killed? The same thing that is likely to happen to you anways. Maybe you get away and someone else dies instead; that's noble. How many people would die before someone is successful? It seems to me three fatalies is better than 30.

Of course, I am sure it is just out of panic reaction with no real decision making going on so you certainly can't fault anyone for reacting. But surely it couldn't hurt to teach people how to respond. I don't know; I wasn't there, but that is the only thought I can imagine in that situation. Do something. No other thought really makes sense in my mind (literally in my mind, not in my opinion).

[[wcip]Angel]

That would require an immense belief in one's fellow man, Id'd say.

How is one to trust that the fellow or lass sitting next to you, or across the hall, will be as diligent in his/her plight to take down one such mass murderer? "Well, if I'm taking a chance trying to take this guy down, I sure as hell want to be certain those people over *there* will too!" Also, most people would probably assume that the first guy out of the chair is the first one who hits the ground. Rationalising. "Hmmm, if Chris and Claire go for him first from their table, he'll hit them first, but I'll be able to take him down from this angle."

Valour and self-sacrifice are noble ideals, but realistically speaking, who among us would react instinctively and give our own life for people we hardly even know? And what if it's a person you know, but really can't stand the sight of? Would you sacrifice yourself, so that a guy/girl you don't even like could live? How many split seconds do you have to weigh all these questions before the muzzle aims at you?

If we start training people how to react in the presence of a mass murderer, I fear we're avoding dealing with the *real* problems: poverty, weapon availability, assimilation. Treating the symptoms is all well and good, but given a choice, I'd rather root out the disease itself.


edit: from http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6565039.stm

A group called I'm ok at VT has been set up on facebook where information on people killed and injured in the shootings has been posted.

One student asked: "Has anyone heard about Nicole White?? She sits beside me in my Abnormal Psychology class and I really want to know if she is ok."

The reply came six postings later: "Nicole White was just confirmed to have been shot and killed yesterday, please pray for her family."
(my highlight)

How's that for irony?:(

[kandrathe]

Can't agree with this more.

Look at Philadelphia and our rediculous murder rate right now. Hell, a week or two ago, a man was hit by a stray bullet while getting ready for work, and killed. All because some people decided to have a gun battle on the street outside his house.

What's Philly up to now? 120 homicides?

Was your gun battle conducted by normally upstanding citizens? No, didn't think so. Felons? Probably. The law already prohibits felons from owning guns. Your problem is with a rise in criminals and a lack of police and enforcement.

[eppie]

Was your gun battle conducted by normally upstanding citizens? No, didn't think so. Felons? Probably. The law already prohibits felons from owning guns. Your problem is with a rise in criminals and a lack of police and enforcement.

Woohoo that is great news. At least convicted felons are not allowed to have a gun. Wouldn't it be great if the law also stated that future felons would not be allowed to own guns?

[kandrathe]

Ok but when we are talking about US troops in Irak killing innocent bystanders, you can pull the one about who scary and bad it is to be 'working' there. So scary that sometimes they lose control and start shooting.
Which one is it going to be?

With all due respect. Sometimes you are a media tool, and sometimes just a tool. There are bad cases of abuse of power, even by some in the military. Those cases are addressed, and the culprits by and large are brought to justice.

I do must say I respect that people are going to war for (I wanted to say us but I mean the republicans) but if it is all bravery? I don't think so. If it is in the US like in Holland (professional army) you see that the army unlike 20 years ago now consists of mainly the lower socio economic groups. And that is a sad thing. The people that gain the least from a free country do all the work. There will of course also be a small group of ideological rough good-doers, but I think they are a minority.

The military in the US are not taken from the lower classes, if that is what you are implying. They are not paid very well, so while in the military they may be poor, they are serving their country and being marginally compensated for their sacrifice. I guess that is better than making it a lucrative profession, but there might be a better balance here. Since the Reagan reform era, the military has been a more selective and professional organization.

So, the result of the world wide media propaganda movement against the US military is that you and other equally duped world citizens believe that the "good rough doers" are a minority. Your answer? Ban guns. Capitulate to tyranny.

No thanks. I'd rather have a gun in a world run by tyrants.

[kandrathe]

Woohoo that is great news. At least convicted felons are not allowed to have a gun. Wouldn't it be great if the law also stated that future felons would not be allowed to own guns?

Maybe in your fantasy tyrannical state. No thanks Mr. Stalin.

[Tal]

I do must say I respect that people are going to war for (I wanted to say us but I mean the republicans) but if it is all bravery? I don't think so. If it is in the US like in Holland (professional army) you see that the army unlike 20 years ago now consists of mainly the lower socio economic groups. And that is a sad thing. The people that gain the least from a free country do all the work. There will of course also be a small group of ideological rough good-doers, but I think they are a minority.

You've not served in the United States Military (or from what I have seen any military at all) and have no concept of the benefits that veterans derive from serving their country. I suggest you limit your comments to something you have knowledge of.

I know many fine men and ladies who were able to go to college, to get jobs that were never available to them because of their military service.

But this is derailing from the topic. Iraq, the US Military, George Bush, Sadam Hussein nor you have anything to do with the tragedy that unfolded in Virginia.

[eppie]

Maybe in your fantasy tyrannical state. No thanks Mr. Stalin.

So you agree you can't see beforehand if someone is going to use a gun for bad purposes?

Anyway, if you consider Holland as a tyranical state because we can't buy guns, I guess you are the one with the twisted worldview. Averageday Holland is safer than average US.

The weapon idea is the same thing happening with those massive SUVs. People (apart from having small male organs :D) buy them because they are supposed to be safer then normal cars.....especially when you are in them. But of course when everybody drives an SUV the advantage is gone....so what next? Everybody goes around in a tank? Anyway at the same time the death toll among cyclist and pedestrians rise, because you absolutely don't stand a chance when you are hit buy a 2000 kg car going 50 km/h (that is a 453683sqp/inch floz car going 363.474Mpfeetgallon per second squared). Bringing more deadly things in a society will never yield less victims. But because everybody thinks he himself is a good shot or he himself will never use a gun 'just like that' everybody things he buys safety.....this survival of the fittest is of course highly questionable.

[Ashock]

George Bush ........ have anything to do with the tragedy that unfolded in Virginia.

It's always George Bush's fault, always. Don't ever forget that!