[Terenas] How to Get in Guild 5 Mans

[vor_lord]

So we see people getting frustrated that they feel left out. I thought I would offer a few tips which might help you if you are in this situation. I think the officers/raid leaders/strong personalities are firmly in the camp of getting people included, especially those who get fewer opportunities. But sometimes the wrong message might get sent.

First, a little background. We're big enough on Terenas that people are rarely "needed". We have plenty of tanks, healers, and DPS. I, for example, am no longer one of just a few main healers. There are many people that can replace me. I believe the same is true for everyone now. We typically have at least 3 runs per evening (maybe a bit less now with regular Karazhan raiding going on).

So let me set the stage. Let's assume that someone has done the cattle call while you are onilne:

"Hey, who wants to run something? I was thinking Arcatraz for a shot at my XXX"

Let's also assume that you want to go and you have time. Normally there are more people around who are available for the run than can fit.

Things You Should Say If You Want To Go

• I want to go.<>
  
• Ooh, ooh, me, me.<>
  
• I would like to go, I need Sha'tar rep.<>
  
• I would love a chance at the XXX dropping.<>
  
• That sounds like fun.<>
  [st]All of these indicate your desire to go. If you add a reason, such as rep or items you need, that adds strength to your argument too.
  
  Things You Should NOT Say If You Want To Go
  • I'm available.<>
    
  • I'm available if you need me.<>
    
  • I could help if you want.<>
    [st]What all of these things mean, at least in the eye of the person who made the call, is that you are available. You'll move to the back of the list and will only get an invite if you're needed, i.e. they can't get a full five without you.
    
    Now that isn't a bad thing if that is the effect you want. This is often what I say, and what GG says a lot. This is because I like to be helpful and help people get their stuff (as are most people in the guild). Sometimes it is against my better judgment (i.e. I should go to bed), but this means what it says above -- you're available. It doesn't indicate that you will be disappointed if you don't go. In fact, it may sometimes even carry a connotation that you might be a little relieved if you aren't needed.
    
    If you want to go, the best way is to indicate that yes, you'll be disappointed if you don't get a spot. Does that guarantee you'll get in? No, but it does mean that in the decision process you aren't automatically assumed to be only going along to help, and therefore at the back of the line. The more strongly you want to go, the more strongly you should indicate that. For example, I've been clamoring for heroics for a couple of weeks now. Have I been getting them? No. But... when one comes up, people know that I probably want to go.
    
    The person making the cattle call (odds are it's Jester, Necrali, Swirly, Dunar, or RTM it seems right now) wants to get a group and get going. It makes things easier if he knows who needs it, who just wants it, and who just is willing to help if needed. I think we're very inclusive, but given the supply and demand, if you even hint that it's no big deal for you to sit, then it's likely you will sit. If ya wanna go, ya gotta say so!
    
    I think we see people saying "I'll come if you need me" when really they mean "I really want to come."
    
    Just a thought. I can add other people's ideas to this post too relating to this subject.
    
    Another post later, or maybe an addendum, could be "How To Get A Guild 5-Man Organized" which is a related topic.

[Kevin]

To echo some of this, yeah, like Necrali when I say "I'll go if you need me" that is exactly what I mean. If you bump me, that's fine. You'll note that I don't say that when heroics are mentioned. Some of you will also note that heroics are generally the only thing I've tried to organize lately but we've never had 5 people keyed for the same one when I've tried. :) No biggy, most of those have turned into runs to get someone rep for a heroic, which works for me. Sometimes I end up on them sometimes I don't.

Like Necrali, while I don't call for a 5 man as much, 3 of the last 5 runs I've called for to set-up I haven't gone on either because other folks need them more. That isn't surprising to me when I'm down to only 2 potential drops in normals that I would even consider equipping.

The desire to help folks is still there from everyone. The big change is that we are a lot bigger than before TBC. Before we were happy to get 15 people in our ZG runs, we enjoyed beating much of that content with just 8-12 people but that wasn't because people were sitting out, that was because that is all we had. That made everyone feel more connected and important. Now we run 2 Karazhan locks at the same time and still have 2-5 people that aren't in the run. We have a lot more people and we have several different speeds of play. Necrali, Still and myself are pretty much done with normal 5 mans. Folks like Conc, Dunar, and Necrali only need 1 more heroic key and maybe a drop or two in others. Folks like Mist, Octord, Kaydoll, and Keshoga, need 2 or more and several drops. If you look at who is in each group it's mostly a matter a playtime. Folks that have more have more stuff done. In the past the folks who had more playtime didn't get stuff done as fast because with a smaller guild they still had a harder time getting a group. Now as Necrali said, with 6+ people capable of tanking or healing a 5 man and even more DPS it's a lot easier for someone to get a group. We have runs happening all hours of the day now. Before they pretty much only happened in the evening. This doesn't mean that people are trying to exclude others. But I can't remember who all has done what like I used to. Pre-TBC with the smaller size I knew for example who had completed a 45 minute baron run and who hadn't. Who still had drops in UBRS and who didn't and I would see some of them come online and try to get a group for them. Now I don't. I can't remember all that. I do know that Wimpy, Octord, and Kaydoll all have less playtime and yeah I have seen one of them come on and tried to organize a run for them. That may not be the best idea because I may have forgotten someone else who is limited play time and they feel snubbed because I didn't try to do that for them.

What much of it comes down to is that you need to be more clear now. I know that Swirly, one of our more vocal organizers, has, like Necrali and I, stepped out of a run that he tried to get going for himself when he saw that others had greater needs. But we simply can't remember needs as well with more people. So say what you mean when a group formation comes up. Oh and it might be good to whisper the organizer as well as say it in guild (made that stand out since this is gonna be a bit of a wall and it's one of the more important points, not because I think people are silly and not doing it.). I say that because I'm pretty sure I left Mist out of a run once because his "I'll go" in guild was missed because there were other discussions going on. I keep whispers in a seperate window and they are much easier to scroll back on and check. The other thing that goes with this, is most everyone who regularly sets-up runs will do a "OK so that is Marn, Mogo, Octord, Conc, Durambar, and Wimpy that said they could go". If you wanted to go and you aren't on that list, poke the person again. I don't think anyone intentionally ignores anyone else. If they do I will fix that issue. But things can be missed, especially when I'm around and typing a 5 line guild chat scrolling chunk of text. Yes this does mean that if you are questing somewhere you may have to just stop for 5 minutes or so to keep up with guild chat on the group forming. But again doing a whisper right off the bat to the organizer and saying something in guild chat should help fix that. I say do both because some of the folks who don't speak up as much may be staying quiet waiting to see if there will be enough for a group.


But yeah I think Necrali covered it. I don't think anyone feels quite as important as they used to because we have a lot more folks now, but that doesn't mean we don't feel you are as important to the guild. It's one of the problems with growth. But we are pretty much done growing now too so things should level out. But you just can't be as personable to everyone when there are 3 times as many people.

Oh and a final note. If you are a quiet type and want more stuff but just aren't comfortable speaking up as much, let me know in game or via a PM. I'll try to help get things rolling for you (as would others I'm sure).

[Jester]

I know I tend to be fairly gregarious when it comes to organizing instances. When I get on, fun as it is to go grind blacksmithing mats, I have more fun with runs. They're social, they're good for progress, they're challenging. So I'll suggest them fairly often, and jump on a chance to go, if someone asks.

I do this because the usual pattern for instances, long learned at a time when we had fewer people, was that the impulse to organize was a fragile orchid, blooming for 5 minutes, and then dying forever. So, it's get 5 people and go.

However, this does not mean I'm unwilling to step aside for people! If you want a spot on a run, and haven't been getting many lately, please, say so! I run two characters who can cover all three major roles (Tanking, DPS, Healing) so that it will be more convenient for the guild, and definitely *not* in order to edge out other people from spots.

So, Necrali is right. Speak up, people will take you at your word.

-Jester

[Alram]

First, a little background. We're big enough on Terenas that people are rarely "needed". We have plenty of tanks, healers, and DPS. I, for example, am no longer one of just a few main healers. There are many people that can replace me. I believe the same is true for everyone now. We typically have at least 3 runs per evening (maybe a bit less now with regular Karazhan raiding going on).

Wow! Nice to hear it. I remember the good old days...

[Treesh]

A few extra thoughts from me.

Thanks for posting this Necrali. Let's hope to get the majority of folks to read it. :)

Yes, we are definitely much bigger than we used to be. We're pretty much no longer forced to underman things anymore, which was fun, but it's definitely nice to just grab at least five folks and go. Please keep in mind though that just because we have x number of folks online in the right character level range, not everyone will be available to five man. There is wife aggro, kid aggro, time restraints, and other things besides five manning that folks may want to do, especially those with less playtime with the rest of us. There are good rewards from questing, good money to be had (for those of us without epic flyers yet;)), necessary farming that must be done in order to feel prepared for raiding or heroics or just completionism/character progression and even PvPing. So while we may have folks online, they may not be available for five mans either, which is perfectly fine. So if you've put out a call for a five man and don't get a big response despite there being the requisite number of folks online, please don't take that as a sign that you are being ignored. Most of the time, I'll try to give a reason if I'm not available so folks don't feel ignored, but folks also shouldn't feel the need to defend themselves for not being available. If it happens too many times, let me know and/or post to pre-arrange a five man.

Oh, one other thing. If guild chat is particularly chatty, folks may miss your cattle call. It happens. We're only human. Once guild chat has stopped scrolling at the speed of light, give another shout and see what happens. This is also another reason to whisper whomever is trying to organize a five man. Sometimes a quick "I'll go!" gets scrolled off quickly. One night, we had so many folks interested and so much going on in guild chat that I lost track of who wanted to go with me (wherever I was going, I can't remember;)) and had to ask folks to whisper me instead.

We really are trying to include as many folks as we can, but we also need help from everyone to make that happen. Communication is the key. :)

[Treesh]

Wow! Nice to hear it. I remember the good old days...

... of three man RFK because that was all that was ever online at once?:) Yeah, it's pretty crazy how big we've gotten.

[q4m]

Great advice. One thing I would add, maybe because you'll see me doing it...sometimes it helps to post in advance. I know we have some people who need to know in advance about runs. Here's how I'd write up a post:

1. Where are you going?
2. When are you starting?
3. What is time limit or objective?
4. How many people do you need?
5. Random notes, i.e. this is a gear run, this is a learning run, etc.

q

[Melekal]

Great advice. One thing I would add, maybe because you'll see me doing it...sometimes it helps to post in advance. I know we have some people who need to know in advance about runs. Here's how I'd write up a post:

1. Where are you going?
2. When are you starting?
3. What is time limit or objective?
4. How many people do you need?
5. Random notes, i.e. this is a gear run, this is a learning run, etc.

q

Let me just say that I appreciate all this advice. I'm pretty new to the guild and the server so it's a nice change to have a guild that is so organized after the variety I've tried on other servers. Last night I learned from experience that just asking if someone can go doesn't necessarily work because of all those constraints. I know, my fault for not preparing ahead of time and posting a request here first. I just figured that with so many members there would always be enough people available and willing to go on an instance run with me. Because of that assumption I had a wonderful night with a pug that disintegrated the further we went into the instance. That's definitely not an experience I want to repeat.

[vor_lord]

I just figured that with so many members there would always be enough people available and willing to go on an instance run with me.

I will say it is tough for the leveling instances to get these, even with attempts to set things up in advance. While people have their low level alts, it isn't often that is their first choice for how to spend their time. My 31 Blood Elf has never been in an instance run. That's fine with me as I certainly understand.

I guess I'm just trying to help set your expectations with respect to low level content appropriately. You may get a few groups along the way, but even with advance planning it might be hard to get a lot of interest. Checking personally with people you know that are at a similar level will help.

[Sinomin]

Good post and good advice. I know that I am quite often hesitant about asking for an instance run for a couple of reasons. As Treesh said, there is so much to do and only so much time, so people are usually involved in something. The other reason being, that Im not good at organizing a run and planning the proper classes needed. Plus, my memory at times has a buffer overflow. So I usually just wait till someone else asks about doing something and hope its a good time for me.

Also a note about myself, I may be online a lot but Im not always there or Im not always able to commit to a run. I would love to be able to go more often but my condition doesnt always allow me to. So please dont take that to mean I dont want to group.

The Lurkers is an awesome guild with terrific people. I am happy to be part of it. :D

[Melekal]

I will say it is tough for the leveling instances to get these, even with attempts to set things up in advance. While people have their low level alts, it isn't often that is their first choice for how to spend their time. My 31 Blood Elf has never been in an instance run. That's fine with me as I certainly understand.

I guess I'm just trying to help set your expectations with respect to low level content appropriately. You may get a few groups along the way, but even with advance planning it might be hard to get a lot of interest. Checking personally with people you know that are at a similar level will help.

Good point, I know how easy it is to get burned out of some instances. (Uldaman for instance) But it never hurts to give it a shot. Any group you can pull together with guildies has got to be better than 90% of pugs you'll get. Maybe if there isn't a group available I'll just bribe some friends to cheese us through. :D

[VoiceMan]

Good advice and information. I missed out on a run the other night that I really wanted in on, and I felt like I was completely ignored when I asked to go. I didn't even get a "sorry, group is full" response, and I was quite angry, but I didn't whisper the person who was organizing the group, I trusted guild chat to be read, and I suppose it may not have been. I'd hate to think I was just blown off, but so far it still looks that way. The advice in this thread is good stuff.

[swirly]

So if you've put out a call for a five man and don't get a big response despite there being the requisite number of folks online, please don't take that as a sign that you are being ignored. Most of the time, I'll try to give a reason if I'm not available so folks don't feel ignored, but folks also shouldn't feel the need to defend themselves for not being available. If it happens too many times, let me know and/or post to pre-arrange a five man.

As a person who organizes runs often (probably too often hehe) I would like to encourage people to speak up even if they can't go on a run. I'm not saying its required or anything, but just requesting it as something to make things easier on the cattle caller. The thing that frustrates the most when trying to put together a run is seeing 15 people on and nobody saying anything about availability when asked.

This also turns up alot when people are waiting on a specific person for a run, are helping others do something outside of an instance, or are waiting for a forum scheduled run. It would be very helpful if when the cattle call goes out and one of these cases (or others like them) are happening that somebody speaks up and informs the cattle caller. I can't speak for other cattle callers, but I tend to find it frustrating when I try to put together something, have it fail, then 30 min later hear that something had been planned already. Not because I have a problem with the planned event, but just because nobody spoke up and told me. I end up sitting in shatt for 20 minutes keeping myself available while I see who all will answer the call when I could have been spending that time doing other things had I know that people already had plans.

Basically I'm just saying that while its not required that a person defend themselves for not being available, it is always appreciated when a person does speak up and let the caller know about things.