Fight the gas prices

[Munkay]

I can understand it though. I can remember when gas cost about a dollar per gallon and Coke cost about a dollar for 2 liters. Coke still costs about a dollar for 2 liters....

And yet it still has one of the highest mark-ups of any other product found in the supermarket. A two liter of soda costs a little less than a few pennies, if I remember correctly. Regardless, the simplicity of the system is refreshing.

US Corn Growers -> Coke Plant -> Coke Bottling Plant -> Distribution Center -> Supermarket.

Gas by comparison is a bit more complex:

Dinosaurs -> Crude Oil -> (about 50 more steps, all of which I shudder at the thought of trying to understand/write down) -> High prices at the pump.

Too many hands in the cookie jar, and not enough caring about the bottom line - the consumer.

Cheers,

Munk

[ima_nerd]

And yet it still has one of the highest mark-ups of any other product found in the supermarket. A two liter of soda costs a little less than a few pennies, if I remember correctly. Regardless, the simplicity of the system is refreshing.

US Corn Growers -> Coke Plant -> Coke Bottling Plant -> Distribution Center -> Supermarket.

Gas by comparison is a bit more complex:

Dinosaurs -> Crude Oil -> (about 50 more steps, all of which I shudder at the thought of trying to understand/write down) -> High prices at the pump.

Too many hands in the cookie jar, and not enough caring about the bottom line - the consumer.

Cheers,

Munk

I blame the dinosaurs.

[eppie]

Eppie, the US isn't Europe. And the solution isn't to simply adopt Europe's way of regulating fuel consumption.

Of course I know that we talk about different continents. However I think your conclusions are not correct.
I know some people need SUVs and I know some people have to travel long distances.....but those some people are not the average.
On average everybody can save a lot of energy without even really changing their habits. Even in your own home things like using low energy consumtion light bulbs, not leaving the light on in a room where you are not at the moment, or keeping the doors of the house closed when you are heating (or cooling) it can save incredible amounts of energy.....these small things are sadly not normal for most people.

IN the US people use there car for everything because they can (could), fuel didn´t cost anything....and now things change. And your point about comfort is just plain wrong........most european cars (I'm not talking about the smallets cars) are just as comfortable for long distances as american cars.......anyway it is your way of thinking that made GM, Ford etc. lose market share to toyota.

[Swiss Mercenary]

Rebel without a clue.

Occhi

The Kung Fu Master strikes again.

[kandrathe]

Except those 40 million people would fuel up on Tuesday instead without hurting the wallet of anyone.

Vote with your wallet. Go Hybrid or electric.

What is the carbon foot print of the electricity generated by burning coal, or fuel oil? Is the energy lost in generation and transmission of the electricity small? I guess I would want to see an apples to apples comparison. Same with E85 or ethanol. From what I understand, it takes an equal amount of energy to produce the Ethanol using other fuels like coal, fuel oil, and gasoline. The only effect I can see is that it is a hidden subsidy for farmers, and a big feel good activity for the go go green crowd.

[kandrathe]

Of course I know that we talk about different continents. However I think your conclusions are not correct.
I know some people need SUVs and I know some people have to travel long distances.....but those some people are not the average.
On average everybody can save a lot of energy without even really changing their habits. Even in your own home things like using low energy consumtion light bulbs, not leaving the light on in a room where you are not at the moment, or keeping the doors of the house closed when you are heating (or cooling) it can save incredible amounts of energy.....these small things are sadly not normal for most people.

IN the US people use there car for everything because they can (could), fuel didn´t cost anything....and now things change. And your point about comfort is just plain wrong........most european cars (I'm not talking about the smallets cars) are just as comfortable for long distances as american cars.......anyway it is your way of thinking that made GM, Ford etc. lose market share to toyota.

How far does the average person in your area travel to work?

[eppie]

How far does the average person in your area travel to work?

I have no idea....men I even don't know what is my area. Where I'm living now people manage to use as much fuel with their 1.4 liter fiat punto, as an american does with his 3 liter dodge.


Why do you ask?

[Ashock]

How far does the average person in your area travel to work?

That's an unfair question. What's work?

[roguebanshee]

And don't even get me started on the idea of trying to make a 20+ hour road trip in a 4 cylinder 65 horsepower European economy car on US highways.

How fast do you need to go? An average of 120 mph?

If you don't need more than 80-100 mph then most of the small ones will be good enough, the horsepower they have is more than adequate for their weight and size. While they won't hit 80 in 5 seconds, they won't take you much longer to get where you need/want to go, as long as you only need speeds in, or close to, their range.

[Ashock]

How fast do you need to go? An average of 120 mph?

If you don't need more than 80-100 mph then most of the small ones will be good enough, the horsepower they have is more than adequate for their weight and size. While they won't hit 80 in 5 seconds, they won't take you much longer to get where you need/want to go, as long as you only need speeds in, or close to, their range.

When your commute to work is 20 min, you can put up with some discomfort for the sake of saving some money on gas. When your commute is 1.5-2 hours each way, it becomes an issue. I realize that in some European countries a 2 hour drive takes you half way across the country, but in the US this is pretty common. On an everyday basis, driving for 3-4 hours total in a coffin on wheels is not really an option.

[eppie]

When your commute to work is 20 min, you can put up with some discomfort for the sake of saving some money on gas. When your commute is 1.5-2 hours each way, it becomes an issue. I realize that in some European countries a 2 hour drive takes you half way across the country, but in the US this is pretty common. On an everyday basis, driving for 3-4 hours total in a coffin on wheels is not really an option.

AAa I thought this was Kandrathe's point.....but this doesn't make sense. Why would people in a bigger country travel farther to their work?
Time is for all of us the same.....I know many people in Holland that do twice a 1 and a half hour cardrive a day to get to and from work? Well the US is about 100 times as big would that mean that that are many people in the US that drive twice 100 hours per day to work?

The comfort issue does not make much sense, most normal cars are very comfortable.....and seeing that our driving style (not mine personally :D) is let's say much more demanding it might be even the other way around. A good thing about american driving is that people are from my experience much calmer that and the use of automatic transmission and cruise control also have a positive effect on fuel consumption.


Size of the roads is maybe a point....in the US roads are generally wider........I wouldn't like to see somebody in a RAM van try to move through the traffic of Rome......I mean most streets in the center are physically impossible to take.

[Ebaneezor]

Rebel without a clue.

Occhi

Not sure how to take that comment. Without assuming to much, Ill wait for a possible elaboration.

[Ashock]

Not sure how to take that comment. Without assuming to much, Ill wait for a possible elaboration.

LOL, good luck on that too.

[--Pete]

Hi,

What is the carbon foot print of the electricity generated by burning coal, or fuel oil?

First, your comments are appropriate for electric cars but not for hybrids. The primary (indeed often only) gas savings mechanism in hybrids is the recovery of energy when decelerating and breaking, energy that would otherwise only been converted to heat.

But even for electric cars, there are some advantges. For one thing, much of the electricity is hydro or nuclear, neither of which contributes to the carbon emissions. For another thing, it makes a lot more sense to put carbon mitigating mechanisms on large, stationary structures rather than on individual automobiles (where, in addition to cost, they add maintenance requirements, and weight).

--Pete

[Swiss Mercenary]

Not sure how to take that comment. Without assuming to much, Ill wait for a possible elaboration.

He may be saying that you are a relative of this guy:

Rebel Without A Clue

What is the carbon foot print of the electricity generated by burning coal, or fuel oil?

If you're only burning fossil fuels to make electricity in your area, I do believe that you're producing more CO2 going electric.

If not, there's a point when you get ahead.

[Chesspiece_face]

Our gas prices are retardedly high right now. One of the popular arguments is that crude prices are real high and therefore so are our gas prices. Bull$hit. We are higher right now than when crude was at it's all time high of high 70s/barrel. We are in the low 60s/barrel, but gas prices are at record highs.

The reason that prices are so high right now is because for the last 3-4 years the oil companies have been buying up refineries and shutting them down to create artificial bottlenecks. we have been experiencing the price increase from that for a couple years. on top of that there are a lot of refineries that have had to reduce production or shut down completely because of poor conditions/repairs.

If the oil companies are able to get these refineries back online and functioning at 100% we will get slightly lowered prices, but still not what we had 3 years ago. And because of the tactics the oil companies are taking we will never have those prices again. they have effectively side stepped any government regulation on colluding on prices by setting up these artificial bottlenecks. they can control the supply by manipulating refineries thus manipulating prices and the government can't do anything about it because there isn't anything illegal.

Edit: one interesting thing about the shutting down of the refineries because of repairs/conditions/etc. is that many of the refinery owners are the ones pushing for the legislations on conditions when they know full well they don't match those conditions thus knowing they will have to shut down the refineries. Also the manipulation of refineries i mentioned above isnt just limited to the 3-4 years i mentioned. memo's from oil companies back from the last 10 years show knowledge and intent to manipulate the supply by lowering refinery production.

[Munkay]

I blame the dinosaurs.

I blame the cigarette companies for the dinosaur's extinction. After all, someone had to start their addiction :P

Cheers,

Munk

(it's a farside reference)

[Munkay]

IN the US people use there car for everything because they can (could), fuel didn´t cost anything....and now things change. And your point about comfort is just plain wrong........most european cars (I'm not talking about the smallets cars) are just as comfortable for long distances as american cars.......anyway it is your way of thinking that made GM, Ford etc. lose market share to toyota.

First off, let's agree this is an entirely subjective point. Second, let's agree you're wrong! :P

No, but to be serious for a moment I really dreaded my short lived experience in small European cars. I admit, I've only driven one a couple of times. But when it comes to comfort, as Ashock pointed out, part of comfort has to do with safety - driving in a small coffin on wheels is not comforting.

I'll admit that when it comes to going out and grabbing groceries at the store, the comfort level of the interior is moot. But when it comes to driving many hours with a full car? There's little doubt the inside of a H2 Hummer is much more enjoyable than a small European coupe.

I still don't think you're fully understanding my point about the difference in the US compared to Europe. "I know some people need SUVs and I know some people have to travel long distances.....but those some people are not the average."

SUV's aside, US culture revolves around traveling long distances more than you think. I'm guessing in Europe there's a very similar social phenomenon. Most people expect a European to have visited almost all of the European countries at some point or other, right? Same thing happens in the US, most people expect you to have seen a sizeable chunk of the US states. The social phenomena exists because indeed, both Europeans' and Americans' lives revolve around quite a bit of travel. Sometimes its leisure, sometimes its business, sometimes it's only as a stop to somewhere else. Either way, we both travel a lot.

Now in Europe there's a complex international train network on the macro level, and great local service (buses, trains, subways, bicycle lanes) on the micro level. And that system makes sense in Europe. There's a much denser population per land, more countries are politically liberal with social programs, etc. Not to mention the inflated gas prices to keep these systems afloat and in good service.

But in the US we don't enjoy the same transit system. Yes, there are trains. Yes we have subways. But the US system isn't designed to (and doesn't) service the same percentage of the population. A big reason is the sheer size of the US. I'm dead serious when I bring up the State of Nevada. Europe doesn't have barren sparse land on the same scale we do (sorry to anyone whose from Nevada, or Wyoming too). Just imagine half of France (or over 7 times the size of Belgium) worth of desert land. And that's just a tiny portion of unused, undervalued land. We also have 10,000 acre cattle grazing farms in Wyoming. Or 10,000 acre blocks of woods in Montana. And interspersed over all these areas are the places everyone wants/needs to go.

So what's the solution? It sure isn't to fly everywhere, nor to build up a great transit system. The answer's already here, and a big part of US culture, it's to drive. Both socially and as I said before economically the US is heavily reliant on travel.

In other words, you say you understand the differences. But when you say things to the effect that European reliance on the automobile is the same to that of the United States', you're wrong Eppie. Raising tariffs on gas doesn't make sense here. And cutting back on gas isn't as easy stateside as it is in Europe.

Cheers,

Munk

[Munkay]

Not sure how to take that comment. Without assuming to much, Ill wait for a possible elaboration.

He means it. And you really don't want an elaboration.

I mean that as kindly as possible:)

Cheers,

Munk

[roguebanshee]

FNo, but to be serious for a moment I really dreaded my short lived experience in small European cars. I admit, I've only driven one a couple of times. But when it comes to comfort, as Ashock pointed out, part of comfort has to do with safety - driving in a small coffin on wheels is not comforting.

Then you've tried the wrong models.

A small car only feels small if it is designed the same way a bigger car is. The Peugeot 107 (and related Citroën and Toyota models) is designed with its size in mind and thus feels like an ordinary car when you sit in the driver or front passenger seats. Unless you think that a SUV or large 4WD is an ordinary car.