Mage build advice sought

[LavCat]

Until last night Roquefort, my then level 30 mage, had not played in about two years. Probably not much since she was in lurkers. She has served faithfully as an auction house character and as a disenchanter. However a warlock friend convinced her to go to Gnomeregan and now she is excited about the game again.

The problem is Blizzard has wiped and redone mage talents twice since she last assigned them, and she has no idea what to do. She had been arcane and frost. One consideration is that we had an Eye of Flame drop a while ago so she has that waiting for her.

She is looking for a build that is fun and helpful for leveling, in instances and out. Raiding is of no consderation at this time. Would anyone have any suggestions for her?

[Mavfin]

Until last night Roquefort, my then level 30 mage, had not played in about two years. Probably not much since she was in lurkers. She has served faithfully as an auction house character and as a disenchanter. However a warlock friend convinced her to go to Gnomeregan and now she is excited about the game again.

The problem is Blizzard has wiped and redone mage talents twice since she last assigned them, and she has no idea what to do. She had been arcane and frost. One consideration is that we had an Eye of Flame drop a while ago so she has that waiting for her.

She is looking for a build that is fun and helpful for leveling, in instances and out. Raiding is of no consderation at this time. Would anyone have any suggestions for her?

Frost gives you more safety. Fire blows them up faster, but isn't as safe. Either is a good build to level with, imo. Spice to taste. Enjoy.:D

[LochnarITB]

You also need to decide if you want to go deep into your spec. Many builds now are arcane as the meat with fire or frost as the seasoning.

[Frag]

Do you like white/purple, blue or red more?

~Frag :whistling:

[Taelas]

As Mavfin says, either focus is great for levelling.

Personally I prefer levelling as Frost, as the control you'll have is unequalled.

[Taelas]

You also need to decide if you want to go deep into your spec. Many builds now are arcane as the meat with fire or frost as the seasoning.

There is little point to going deep in Arcane as a levelling build.;)

[LavCat]

You also need to decide if you want to go deep into your spec. Many builds now are arcane as the meat with fire or frost as the seasoning.

I was hoping for a few more specifics, but I sat down with the talent calculator and came up with this:

Arcane/Fire


What important talents did I miss, and what should I have not picked up?

Thanks!

[LochnarITB]

There is little point to going deep in Arcane as a levelling build.;)

[edit] never mind - just being pissy - move along

[Skandranon]

Arcane/Fire
What important talents did I miss, and what should I have not picked up?

Considering that your focus is leveling, that's a pretty solid build, but I have the following recommendations:

1) Elemental Precision can be dropped. Especially in a leveling sense, you aren't going to notice the 3% reduced mana cost, and you're unlikely to be attacking anything that really requires a lot of hit. What spellhit you need can be easily made up with gear.

2) By the same token, you don't need all those points in Arcane Focus. You can scale those down.

3)...to put points in Arcane Concentration. It is also a minor efficiency bonus that you're unlikely to notice levelling, but it's very handy for 5-mans.

4) Magic Absorption is a funny talent because it gives a static amount of resistances. That means it's quite powerful at level 40 or below, and gets significantly weaker past about 60. It's typically not selected for leveling or raiding - not that it isn't handy, but Concentration is typically more useful.

5) Prismatic Cloak is also somewhat underwhelming. You're unlikely to notice a mere 4% less damage wherever it occurs. Those points can be saved for better use elsewhere.

6) Impact is a very handy leveling talent. That said, it's coming at the expense of an even better talent...

7) ...Ignite. If you're going to even minor in fire, Ignite is simply too good to pass up. One of the best bonuses of an Arcane/Fire build like the one you've built is that Spell Power and Ignite multiply, unlike Spell Power and Ice Shards. A Spell Power/Ice Shards crit is 225% (100 base + 50% crit + 50% ice shards + 25% spell power), but a Spell Power/Ignite crit is 245% (100 base + 50% crit + 25% spell power, all *1.4 due to Ignite).

8) To power those crits further, taking Arcane Potency raises your effective crit rate and combines nicely with your Empowered Arcane Missiles. With Potency, if you cast an Arcane Missiles while clearcasting, each missile is +30% crit, which can result in some very nice crit strings. Furthermore, because of the way Missiles functions, any Missiles proccing clearcasting will enjoy the crit bonus as well as any missiles cast with one - effectively doubling the power of the talent.

I'd recommend something more like this.

[LochnarITB]

I was hoping for a few more specifics, but I sat down with the talent calculator and came up with this:

Arcane/Fire
What important talents did I miss, and what should I have not picked up?

Thanks!

I think I would go more like this for arcane/fire.

[LavCat]

Replying to both Loch and Skandranon, I have rethought things and come up with this:

Arcane/Fire II


As always there are not enough talent points to go around. I disregarded the advice about Arcane Focus and assigned a full five points. My thinking is that few things are more embarrassing than a polymorph that fails.

I am still undecided about the choice between Blast Wave and Slow. In the above build I went with Blast Wave, because Roquefort could get it now. Who knows when or if ever she will reach level 70.

Thanks again for all the help and please feel free to continue the discussion as nothing is yet cast in stone.

[Skandranon]

As always there are not enough talent points to go around. I disregarded the advice about Arcane Focus and assigned a full five points. My thinking is that few things are more embarrassing than a polymorph that fails.

Well, I agree that missing Polymorphs is pretty bad. But I'm not saying to disregard that; I'm saying that for the majority of the stuff you're running into, it isn't going to matter.

The spell chance to miss, according to level difference, is 4% for even-level, 5% for one level above, 6% for two levels above, and 17% for 3 levels above (orange con). With typical levelling styles, one generally doesn't regularly encounter orange-con critters. I know when I level, I try to avoid them.

Since there is a minimum chance to miss of 1%, for anything the same level as you, only one-and-a-half points of Arcane Focus (3%) are doing anything to affect your Polymorph failure rate. Past that, additional points in Arcane Focus are not altering the calculation in any way. For anything one level above you, only two points of Arcane Focus matter, and for anything two levels higher, only two-and-a-half points are actually taking effect. So for most commonly encountered situations, three points maxes out the benefit you can give to your Polymorph, and the remaining two points are literally of no effect whatsoever.

[LavCat]

Well, I agree that missing Polymorphs is pretty bad. But I'm not saying to disregard that; I'm saying that for the majority of the stuff you're running into, it isn't going to matter.

The spell chance to miss, according to level difference, is 4% for even-level, 5% for one level above, 6% for two levels above, and 17% for 3 levels above (orange con). With typical levelling styles, one generally doesn't regularly encounter orange-con critters. I know when I level, I try to avoid them.

Since there is a minimum chance to miss of 1%, for anything the same level as you, only one-and-a-half points of Arcane Focus (3%) are doing anything to affect your Polymorph failure rate. Past that, additional points in Arcane Focus are not altering the calculation in any way. For anything one level above you, only two points of Arcane Focus matter, and for anything two levels higher, only two-and-a-half points are actually taking effect. So for most commonly encountered situations, three points maxes out the benefit you can give to your Polymorph, and the remaining two points are literally of no effect whatsoever.

The analysis is well taken and another friend told me three points for Arcane Focus also. I played with the talent calculator some more, and the only other place that fit was Arcane Meditation, which is not that exciting to me. I think I'll go with three points in Arcane Focus for now, and have plenty of time to think about it later.

My characters often run into things more than three levels above them while leveling, even on Stormrage. It's worse on Tichondrius where for example my hunter had to defeat a shaman six levels higher who tried to gank her. I always find it easier to level melee characters and hunters, as my casters can't seem to hit anything well above their level.

[Taelas]

[edit] never mind - just being pissy - move along

After having thought about it some more, I'll take back what I said. There's little point to going deep into Arcane as a Frost mage, but it's more than worth it as a Fire mage.:)When I made that comment, I had only really considered Frost.

[Bob the Beholder]

I would like to add in my own experience as to the validity of Arcane/Fire levelling. Frost'll get you higher survivability and some good AoE grinding, but when it comes to straight up single target going to town on some mob, the mana efficiency talents in Arcane and the damage increasing talents in fire make for a good combination for good, fast grinding.

I would like to ask you to reconsider passing the 33 point mark in Arcane, though. It seems you're not going to be high enough level to make such a decision for a while now, but when you do, I would like you to consider exactly what you'd be losing out on to gain Mind Mastery and Slow. Blast Wave, of course, is the one you'd think of (and it seems you have, from your earlier post), but do not discount Critical Mass, or Blazing Speed. 25 percent of your int really isn't likely to be a very substantial number until you're hitting end game gear, anyway--not in comparison to the DPS increase of Critical Mass.

The combination or Arcane Instability, Spell Power, and Critical Mass makes for some very impressive numbers, and allows you to maintain a very effective crit rate with even minimal gear. Really, if you're going to have Spell Power at all, I would suggest getting all the crit you can. It is very effective.

I don't know if you PvP much? You seem to be on Stormrage, so forgive me if I make the assumption that you're probably not going to have to defend yourself very much as you level. It is amazing for fending off rogues and warriors and such, whether you're going to be need it for that or not--10 percent proc rate is very good when you're taking several hits. Even in PvE, though, it's a life saver, for when things go wrong and you have one too many mobs, and you're not sure you're going to make it, and BAM, outpace them easily.

All that, and Blast Wave is just very, very useful. An extra snare right when you need it, as well as very effective AoE damage.

The spec I was building into as I levelled from 60 to 70 was this one: 33/28/0

[LavCat]

I would like to add in my own experience as to the validity of Arcane/Fire levelling. Frost'll get you higher survivability and some good AoE grinding, but when it comes to straight up single target going to town on some mob, the mana efficiency talents in Arcane and the damage increasing talents in fire make for a good combination for good, fast grinding.

I would like to ask you to reconsider passing the 33 point mark in Arcane, though. It seems you're not going to be high enough level to make such a decision for a while now, but when you do, I would like you to consider exactly what you'd be losing out on to gain Mind Mastery and Slow. Blast Wave, of course, is the one you'd think of (and it seems you have, from your earlier post), but do not discount Critical Mass, or Blazing Speed. 25 percent of your int really isn't likely to be a very substantial number until you're hitting end game gear, anyway--not in comparison to the DPS increase of Critical Mass.

The combination or Arcane Instability, Spell Power, and Critical Mass makes for some very impressive numbers, and allows you to maintain a very effective crit rate with even minimal gear. Really, if you're going to have Spell Power at all, I would suggest getting all the crit you can. It is very effective.

I don't know if you PvP much? You seem to be on Stormrage, so forgive me if I make the assumption that you're probably not going to have to defend yourself very much as you level. It is amazing for fending off rogues and warriors and such, whether you're going to be need it for that or not--10 percent proc rate is very good when you're taking several hits. Even in PvE, though, it's a life saver, for when things go wrong and you have one too many mobs, and you're not sure you're going to make it, and BAM, outpace them easily.

All that, and Blast Wave is just very, very useful. An extra snare right when you need it, as well as very effective AoE damage.

The spec I was building into as I levelled from 60 to 70 was this one: 33/28/0

This build has food for thought. I had not considered Blazing Speed before but it might be fun, even though I can't see Roquefort doing much PvP. Though you never know. Baguette, my priest, led the Stormrage PvP chart once, although lately I have been doing PvP mostly with my shaman. If I were making a PvP mage I think I would take all the damage reduction talents that I could.

I played around with the calculator again and came up with this:

Edit: The build I originally cut and pasted here was from the wrong window, and my thinking has changed anyhow.


I went with Critical Mass and used Playing with Fire as a bridge point to get Blazing Speed and one point in Fire Power. Roquefort has been using Blast Wave. My arcane choices were different from yours in that I did not want to give up Improved Arcane Missiles. I thought all mages had that! I also did not want to pass up Arcane Potency after putting points in Arcane Concentration. I am still undecided about the number of points in Arcane Focus, as was discussed above.

You used the past tense in the sentence about your build. What spec do you use now?


Edit: Technically I believe the tense in question is past progressive, but the implication is that it is the build no longer used.

[Taelas]

On the contrary, most mages do not bother with Improved Arcane Missiles. You shouldn't be getting hit anyway.

Here's my own variation on an Arcane/Fire levelling build. The main tactic is open with Pyroblast, then go to town with Scorch and Fireblast, with the occasional PoM-Pyro to spice things up. Blast Wave can easily be put into Slow instead; both talents have their merits. Once you get high up, Arcane Blast gets thrown in (though I don't have any experience with the spell, so I'm just going from others'). Top priority for gear would be int, +crit and +spelldamage.

[LavCat]

On the contrary, most mages do not bother with Improved Arcane Missiles. You shouldn't be getting hit anyway.

Here's my own variation on an Arcane/Fire levelling build. The main tactic is open with Pyroblast, then go to town with Scorch and Fireblast, with the occasional PoM-Pyro to spice things up. Blast Wave can easily be put into Slow instead; both talents have their merits. Once you get high up, Arcane Blast gets thrown in (though I don't have any experience with the spell, so I'm just going from others'). Top priority for gear would be int, +crit and +spelldamage.

I'm not convinced about giving up Improved Arcane Missiles, but your build got me to rethink Arcane Impact. I took two points from Arcane Focus and the filler from Arcane Meditation, and reassigned them there. That left me with this:

Arcane/Fire IV


Alternatively I could move the point in Fire Power to max out Arcane Mind.

[Skandranon]

I'm not convinced about giving up Improved Arcane Missiles, but your build got me to rethink Arcane Impact. I took two points from Arcane Focus and the filler from Arcane Meditation, and reassigned them there. That left me with this:

Arcane/Fire IV
Alternatively I could move the point in Fire Power to max out Arcane Mind.

It's a pretty solid build. IAM is a weak raiding talent but really a nice leveling talent, so holding it isn't a bad choice.

[Bob the Beholder]

You used the past tense in the sentence about your build. What spec do you use now?
Edit: Technically I believe the tense in question is past progressive, but the implication is that it is the build no longer used.

Sad as it is, I'm currently frost, 17/0/44. (Especially sad when considering I'm a Spellfire tailor.) I'm a big PvPer, and as much as I just love lighting some poor fool up, I am having trouble giving up the greater control and survivability of frost. I maintain, however, that for the purpose of levelling, arcane/fire is the way to go.

*edit*

As to your latest build, it is pretty solid. My suggestion would be to free up a few talents points in the early tiers of the arcane tree to be used for Arcane Meditation and Arcane Mind. Minimizing downtime goes a long way to speeding grinding. Dropping Iimproved Arcane Missiles, as mentioned earlier, is a pretty good candidate for coming up with those points. It's useful, certain, but with this build you're going to be having a scorch with a high crit rate, high mana efficiency, and decent interruption resistance already. IAM is mostly unnecessary. A matter of choice, certainly, but it's my opinion you can lose it without hurting anything.

Another thing I would suggest trying to free up points for is Incinerate. Scorch and fireblast will be a staple--and like I said earlier, with the buffs to crit damage you get in Arcane, buffing crit rate as high as possible is something I would suggest you shoot for.

Last and final suggestion for this build--improved Scorch. Scorch is very nice for this build--you're likely going to be using it quite a bit towards your later levels. It's likely you're going to end up with a few stacks of this on a lot of mobs, and it can make a difference. Very useful for instance boss fights, also.

For those last two talents, though--incinerate and Imp. Scorch, you'd probably have to give up impact to free up the points for them, which is a rough choice.