The new dungeon que feature kicks ass

[Sir_Die_alot]

I wasn't that excited about it but I have found it to be WONDERFUL for finding groups. Yes it puts you with bad people sometimes but that happens in pugs no matter what. Overall my experience has been very good with this. For once a new feature I actually like.:)

[Ynir]

Yumyum. my warlock, has all the Triumph pve gear and is working on the Furious pvp set five days after 3.3 went live. After running ten or more instances an evening some trends are apparent.

The mechanics of cross-realm instancing are working well. Entering the instance may take several tries, but that will improve soon. Instance stability is good. Gear matching works to the extent that I haven't been placed in a group that couldn't finish an instance for lack of dps. (For lack of tanking or healing skills, yes, but rarely.)

Replacing players who dc or opt out (usually from Occulus) is quick. This is surprising considering how long it could take to find a tank or healer using LFM on Stormrage.

I have not yet seen a loot fight. There is a problem with hybrid classes being unable to roll need for offspec gear. There is so little socializing during these speed runs that it isn't possible to discuss passing on an item so that someone can be assured of winning with a greed roll.

Losing the social aspects of grouping from the LFG list is the only downside to the new system. I hope they will revive the LFG/LFM lists for grouping locally.

I always have Recount up, and have detected a new form of camping. A player may act out the fights and autofollow without actually doing anything. This is immediately obvious when dps/damage doesn't change. These parasites are voted out and replaced, or not, as necessary.

Yumyum will have stripmined all the new gear by January, then it's LFR to see Ony 10. I don't see how random groups can raid any but the simplest instances, but I don't mind trying.

[Concillian]

I wasn't that excited about it but I have found it to be WONDERFUL for finding groups. Yes it puts you with bad people sometimes but that happens in pugs no matter what. Overall my experience has been very good with this. For once a new feature I actually like.:)

Random queuing / dungeon system = awesome

Really, they put a lot of polish on this system. I can't remember the last time Blizzard did something this involved that went in so smoothly.

The loot system that goes along with it is great for random PUGs so people can't 'ninja', but TERRIBLE for guild runs. There is no way to have it both convenient (auto-DE) and have someone be able to choose an option that will save it from DE if they can use it. We thought need would work, but then the Boomkins got locked out of cloth and the plate wearers got locked out of half their DPS gearing options and stuff started geting DE'd that could have been used. Now we're stuck with all passing or all greeding and again giving crap to the DE'er to DE.

Any solutions we've been able to work out end up having an exploitable gap for PUGs (like having Need > Greed > Vendor / DE instead of Need > Greed / DE, a ninja-PUG could just Greed everything)

[Lissa]

Random queuing / dungeon system = awesome

Really, they put a lot of polish on this system. I can't remember the last time Blizzard did something this involved that went in so smoothly.

The loot system that goes along with it is great for random PUGs so people can't 'ninja', but TERRIBLE for guild runs. There is no way to have it both convenient (auto-DE) and have someone be able to choose an option that will save it from DE if they can use it. We thought need would work, but then the Boomkins got locked out of cloth and the plate wearers got locked out of half their DPS gearing options and stuff started geting DE'd that could have been used. Now we're stuck with all passing or all greeding and again giving crap to the DE'er to DE.

Any solutions we've been able to work out end up having an exploitable gap for PUGs (like having Need > Greed > Vendor / DE instead of Need > Greed / DE, a ninja-PUG could just Greed everything)

The simple solution to whether something gets DE'd or not is to just Need it. Need is higher on the order than Greed and DE, thus if you want to save it, Need it, you can always pass it to the enchanter later and DE it if you realize it's not as good as it seemed.

[WimpySmurf]

The simple solution to whether something gets DE'd or not is to just Need it. Need is higher on the order than Greed and DE, thus if you want to save it, Need it, you can always pass it to the enchanter later and DE it if you realize it's not as good as it seemed.

That works, EXCEPT, that the system will not allow you to need on ALL items. To prevent Ninja looting, the NEED button is disabled at times. This is the problem that Conc's referring to, when a leather item drops and the only person who wants it is the Plate wearing person and the system for whatever reason decides he can't NEED the item, then the DE/GREED rolls happen and someone who picked DE wins the item and gets a crystal.

I've seen it happen to a PuG hunter wearing leather SP item, a Leather AP item drops and he can't NEED the item and it ends up DE'd in someones bag.

-WimpySmurf

[Ruvanal]

That works, EXCEPT, that the system will not allow you to need on ALL items. To prevent Ninja looting, the NEED button is disabled at times. This is the problem that Conc's referring to, when a leather item drops and the only person who wants it is the Plate wearing person and the system for whatever reason decides he can't NEED the item, then the DE/GREED rolls happen and someone who picked DE wins the item and gets a crystal.

I've seen it happen to a PuG hunter wearing leather SP item, a Leather AP item drops and he can't NEED the item and it ends up DE'd in someones bag.

-WimpySmurf

Ditto for a case of a healer trinket dropping. A shadow priest saw it as a very good upgrade over their current trinkets and lost it to being sharded due to not being able to roll need to obtain it since he was playing a DPS spec.

[Mavfin]

Ditto for a case of a healer trinket dropping. A shadow priest saw it as a very good upgrade over their current trinkets and lost it to being sharded due to not being able to roll need to obtain it since he was playing a DPS spec.

I haven't seen anyone not be able to roll need because of spec. Armor types, yes, spec, no. I was in fury spec, and needed the tank boots in FoS. I ended up trading them to the tank to replace his 200s, but I wasn't going to let them get sharded, either. I also needed a heal trinket while in DPS spec on my disc/shadow priest, and had no issues. Everyone else d/e rolled, so I just made sure it wasn't sharded in that case, too.

[Ruvanal]

I haven't seen anyone not be able to roll need because of spec. Armor types, yes, spec, no. I was in fury spec, and needed the tank boots in FoS. I ended up trading them to the tank to replace his 200s, but I wasn't going to let them get sharded, either. I also needed a heal trinket while in DPS spec on my disc/shadow priest, and had no issues. Everyone else d/e rolled, so I just made sure it wasn't sharded in that case, too.

Here is a case from the WoW bug report forum that illustrates what can be happening at times.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.h...97738&sid=1
Note that this was a priest that was apparently in shadow spec (or at least had been cued as DPS player) that could not roll need on trinket due to it being classed as a healer only item for the 'Need before Greed' loot system.

My guess on the case that you had run into, would be that the item in question was actually set with flags that made in a caster item in general as opposed to heal only. Some of the item flagging for this loot system seems to me to be fairly arbitrary by whoever put the flags on the items in the data base. I do recall a blue some time back that had indicated that the armor flags were for the most part just done by the armor type (plate, mail, leather, cloth) and only a few specifically set to caster/heal only. And that their flagging some of the miscellaneous items took more consideration (cloaks, ring, necklaces, trinkets and some other odd nick-nacks).

[Concillian]

The simple solution to whether something gets DE'd or not is to just Need it. Need is higher on the order than Greed and DE, thus if you want to save it, Need it, you can always pass it to the enchanter later and DE it if you realize it's not as good as it seemed.

You really don't read do you? I already mentioned in my post why this doesn't work.

We thought need would work, but then the Boomkins got locked out of cloth and the plate wearers got locked out of half their DPS gearing options and stuff started geting DE'd that could have been used. Now we're stuck with all passing or all greeding and again giving crap to the DE'er to DE.

[Lissa]

You really don't read do you? I already mentioned in my post why this doesn't work.

I maintain that the solution is far more simple that you're making it out to be. The ultimate fix is communication. You know what the loot is in the 5 mans if you bother to use the tools on the internet. Let people know what items from which bosses you're interested in as off spec before you fight the boss. At that point, if something is still getting DE'd, then someone is either: a) not paying attetion,B)you didn't communicate ahead of time what you might want, or c) someone is being an ass.

[shoju]

I maintain that the solution is far more simple that you're making it out to be. The ultimate fix is communication. You know what the loot is in the 5 mans if you bother to use the tools on the internet, let people know what items from what bosses you're interested in as off spec before you fight the boss. At that point, if something is still getting DE'd, then someone is either: a) not paying attetion,B)you didn't communicate ahead of time what you might want, or c) someone is being an ass.

Boomkin wanting to roll on cloth gear isn't off spec. That is the crux of the problem. Paladins and Warriors wanting that sweet leather that they can't roll on isn't off spec.

The problem boils down to the fact that the D/E Roll is on the same level as the greed roll, and that you can't roll need on lower tier armor.

What should be done is give a priority system to need rolls.

If I'm in H:ToC5 for instance on my DK and there is a rogue in the group. Treads of Dismal Fortune drop. I want them, I need. The rogue wants them, He needs. Because Leather is his primary, he wins. If the rogue doesn't want them, I get them ahead of the greed/de rolls.

Communication isn't going to be a viable solution in the new DF system. I have gone entire runs and not said a single thing in Party chat. There are more runs like that than there are full of bubbly conversation. It is the nature of the beast.

[Frag]

c) someone is being an ass.

And they have every reason under the system to be one.

~FragB)

[Klaus]

The ultimate fix is communication.

Which...pretty much makes the DE button useless.

[Melekal]

Which...pretty much makes the DE button useless.

I agree. The whole benefit to the dungeon finder is to find quick groups and blast through heroics quickly. I find the DE button awesome for those kinds of groups as you assume you won't need any of the loot. In fact I almost never even look at the item before hitting the DE button.

Taking time out to type out the communication is great but I highly doubt anyone will be bothering to even read it and you'll be left behind on a couple pulls. Even if they do read it I doubt they'll bother to pause long enough to realize or remember it was something something you wanted.

All guild runs help as you can do the communication ahead of time but even then you don't know what dungeon you are going to hit. Even if you are all on mumble or vent then you have to identify who might want off armor items ahead of time and wait for them to call the all clear before hitting the DE button, which defeats the whole purpose of having it there.

In all I like the changes but that one is a glaring problem I hope they address soon.

[Lissa]

Boomkin wanting to roll on cloth gear isn't off spec. That is the crux of the problem. Paladins and Warriors wanting that sweet leather that they can't roll on isn't off spec.

The problem boils down to the fact that the D/E Roll is on the same level as the greed roll, and that you can't roll need on lower tier armor.

What should be done is give a priority system to need rolls.

If I'm in H:ToC5 for instance on my DK and there is a rogue in the group. Treads of Dismal Fortune drop. I want them, I need. The rogue wants them, He needs. Because Leather is his primary, he wins. If the rogue doesn't want them, I get them ahead of the greed/de rolls.

Communication isn't going to be a viable solution in the new DF system. I have gone entire runs and not said a single thing in Party chat. There are more runs like that than there are full of bubbly conversation. It is the nature of the beast.

But you have the foreknowledge and ability to communicate what you are interested in. Again, it boils down to communicating what is of interest of you. If you're unwilling to say something, that falls under category b, you didn't communicate what you have of interest.

[Taelas]

Eh, no. It's still more convenient when no one wants the item to just click D/E.

If you are upfront about what you want, and everyone agrees to it, (and both of those are in in-game text) you can get a GM to intervene if someone starts dicking around -- breaking an agreement like that is scamming, and they take action. But the agreement has to be there and in in-game text, so they can check their logs and see if it's there.

[Lissa]

And they have every reason under the system to be one.

~FragB)

Right, that's why I listed that as category c of dealing with loot in the system Blizzard has provided. Several pug runs I've been involved with I have seen people discuss things before attacking the boss on the loot and they effectively have circumvented the system Blizzard put in place to get the loot to the right people.

[Lissa]

Which...pretty much makes the DE button useless.

Not really, because if no one speaks up, then no one really wants it or didn't bother to spend the time looking at the tables which everyone can do.

[Shamago]

I agree. The whole benefit to the dungeon finder is to find quick groups and blast through heroics quickly. I find the DE button awesome for those kinds of groups as you assume you won't need any of the loot. In fact I almost never even look at the item before hitting the DE button.

Taking time out to type out the communication is great but I highly doubt anyone will be bothering to even read it and you'll be left behind on a couple pulls. Even if they do read it I doubt they'll bother to pause long enough to realize or remember it was something something you wanted.

All guild runs help as you can do the communication ahead of time but even then you don't know what dungeon you are going to hit. Even if you are all on mumble or vent then you have to identify who might want off armor items ahead of time and wait for them to call the all clear before hitting the DE button, which defeats the whole purpose of having it there.

In all I like the changes but that one is a glaring problem I hope they address soon.

I believe that if your entire group is pre-formed (no PuGs from the finder, even if you use it for the random heroic or teleport features) then you aren't locked into the need before greed loot rule. Just make sure it's on group loot and anyone should be able to do a need roll to save an item from being sharded.

If you do have a found player, you'll have to rely on communication of one form or another.

[Concillian]

I maintain that the solution is far more simple that you're making it out to be. The ultimate fix is communication. You know what the loot is in the 5 mans if you bother to use the tools on the internet. Let people know what items from which bosses you're interested in as off spec before you fight the boss. At that point, if something is still getting DE'd, then someone is either: a) not paying attetion,B)you didn't communicate ahead of time what you might want, or c) someone is being an ass.

There is no way to have it both convenient (auto-DE) and have someone be able to choose an option that will save it from DE if they can use it.

I'm not making it out to be complicated. I'm just making a statement.

No matter how anyone tries to skew the facts, the new Need / Greed / DE system is more complicated than the old Need / Greed system for guild runs.

Old system we could have enchanters greed and people who could use it need. That doesn't work anymore because sometimes people aren't allowed to roll need. We have to introduce conditions on rolling, which is adding complexity. Or we can have everyone roll greed and then pass it around, which also adds time and complexity. It's not more simple, it's more complex.

It's a great system for random PUGs to prevent ninjas. It's just terrible for guild runs.

I'm also trying to figure out why a system where everyone has to alt-tab out to look at external websites is somehow more simple than a system that didn't require that. I'm totally lost on your logic.