Yet another religious cult raided

[kandrathe]

Probably not.

I think the opposite on that. There is ample evidence of misconduct by the SI leadership.

You presented an unreferenced quote as if it were an official pronouncement, and another with no indication that it was an op-ed piece from a partisan and not a news bit. I thought I'd point that out, clear things up a bit.

Actually, I gave the source and the link. Anyone could follow it and learn where and who wrote it. I never claimed it was a non-partisan source. I only said, what he said in that quote was what I was saying about the dogma of science. He belongs to an ID supporting organization. Fancy that. He seems to be a smart guy.

Sometimes sources do matter. As for substance, read my posts, Jester's post, or the one I just edited.

I read your stuff. Are you saying that your sources are objective? The Skeptic is objective? LOL

Allow me to give you something I've noticed over the years. Smart people still do stupid things. Maybe not as often, but they do.

Thanks for that tidbit. I'll let you in on a secret, I do stupid things once in awhile. Luckily for me, my boss and peers don't persecute me for my mistakes, and vice-versa. We find it is more productive to work together on stuff, and help each other get things done rather than tear each other down. I really don't think Sternberg thought it would be anything more than controversial. He was wrong, and now he has been given his scarlet letter.

Edit: BTW, I also saw the stuff on Sternberg's earlier associations. There is little evidence I can see of his support anywhere for actual ID, although he might have been sympathetic to notions of irreducibly complex structures. This might be more character assassination, so I ignored it as I try to rely on evidence, actually. Similarly I don't go around researching the sources others link here to discover if they are funded by George Soros, by you know like the writings of people like Steve Fuller. Oh, and in the interest of informing the readers on your links, Ed Brayton is a is a longtime evolution activist and was the co-founder of Michigan Citizens for Science and the group science blog The Panda's Thumb. He has written for such publications as The Bard, Reports of the National Center for Science Education, and Skeptic magazine. Hey! Wasn't "National Center for Science Education" the same organization that was colluding with SI to discredit Sternberg? Yes! Yes, it was.

[Bun-Bun]

Edit: BTW, I also saw the stuff on Sternberg's earlier associations. There is little evidence I can see of his support anywhere for ID, although he might have been sympathetic. This might be more character assassination, so I ignored it as I try to rely on evidence, actually. Similarly I don't go around researching the sources others link here to discover if they are funded by George Soros, by you know like the writings of people like Steve Fuller. Oh, and in the interest of informing the readers on your links, Ed Brayton is a is a longtime evolution activist and was the co-founder of Michigan Citizens for Science and the group science blog The Panda's Thumb. He has written for such publications as The Bard, Reports of the National Center for Science Education, and Skeptic magazine. Hey! Wasn't "National Center for Science Education" the same organization that was colluding with SI to discredit Sternberg? Yes! Yes, it was.

Cool, thanks for filling that in. I'm not being sarcastic, I think that's good to have it all in the open. You've saved me the trouble of going back and editing my post.:)

I think we've reached the point where we've both thrown out all the information we're going to toss into the fray, and since neither of us put much credit in each other's information, no minds will be changed. I'm not trying to shut you down; feel free to go on if you like, but I think I'm done here.

[Jester]

I'll let you in on a secret, I do stupid things once in awhile. Luckily for me, my boss and peers don't persecute me for my mistakes, and vice-versa. We find it is more productive to work together on stuff, and help each other get things done rather than tear each other down. I really don't think Sternberg thought it would be anything more than controversial. He was wrong, and now he has been given his scarlet letter.

Wow, wouldn't it be nice if we could all just get along, and work with such competitive collaborators as Dr. Meyer towards a better understanding of science. After all, he's just out to understand ideas in greater depth, with better evidence, right?

Uh, no.

http://www.antievolution.org/features/wedge.pdf

Their goal is the total replacement of naturalism, in both science and culture, with a creationist, theistic understanding of the world. This is not a scientific agenda, this is an anti-science dogma. This is the man who wrote that paper, Steven C. Meyer. This is what Sternberg decided to let in through the back door, granting ID its first (and to date, only) peer-reviewed paper. Bollocks to him saying he did it by the books, because nobody except the DI backs up his story. The journal has retracted the article and claims it would never have seen the light of day, were the proper reviewers consulted. He abused his position to do what would otherwise have been possible only through a career-ending error: putting anti-scientific drivel in a peer-reviewed journal.

Meyer, and his team at the Discovery Institute, are not pursuing a collaborative research agenda. Not only do they have nothing to contribute in terms of useful evidence or theory, but they have no interest in the other half of the debate being possibly correct. They have a faith-based position that is antithetical not only to evolution, but to scientific naturalism itself.

This junk deserves the reception it has gotten, and if it is not fair to persecute a scientist on the basis of their religion, it is hardly strange (let alone illegal) that their careers would be ended by offering support to "science" that is on the level of Hypercube or Reflexology.

Edit: BTW, I also saw the stuff on Sternberg's earlier associations. There is little evidence I can see of his support anywhere for actual ID, although he might have been sympathetic to notions of irreducibly complex structures.

He was on a Baraminology study group editorial board. No biologist who wasn't at least mildly supportive of ID would touch that with a 50 foot pole.

He delivered a paper at this conference, along with nearly every other luminary of the ID movement: http://www.iscid.org/rapid/schedule.html

He signed the Discovery Institute's facetious "Dissent from Darwinism" statement.

Forgive me if I don't find that to be "little evidence" of support for "actual ID". Sounds to me like he was up to his ears in it, if not as a 100% true believer, then at least as a very supportive fellow traveller. You don't give papers at the "Research and Progress in Intelligent Design" conference otherwise.

-Jester

Edit: Changed "subscribing" to "offering support" to better reflect what is known for certain about Sternberg's actions.

Afterthought: As to what is SETI relative to Intelligent Design, why not ask SETI? http://www.space.com/searchforlife/seti_in...ign_051201.html

[Griselda]

Hmm, the teachers in my building can't agree about much of anything. I don't know how we'd manage to cobble together a common agenda and world view.

OK, Kandrathe, you don't want to reply to me. That's fine. But I want you to know that I feel your statements about public education in America are far, far out of line with what my experience has been. Quite frankly, I'm currently busting my ass to provide a good education to students who live in a highly religious, conservative town. So, it's frustrating to come home after working a 12-hour day and hear that I'm actually part of a secret plot to push through my liberal agenda. I do encourage my kids to develop their critical thinking skills, if that's what you mean. But we *want* them to do that, right?

[Occhidiangela]

OK, Kandrathe, you don't want to reply to me. That's fine. But I want you to know that I feel your statements about public education in America are far, far out of line with what my experience has been. Quite frankly, I'm currently busting my ass to provide a good education to students who live in a highly religious, conservative town. So, it's frustrating to come home after working a 12-hour day and hear that I'm actually part of a secret plot to push through my liberal agenda. I do encourage my kids to develop their critical thinking skills, if that's what you mean. But we *want* them to do that, right?

Gris, teachers come in all shapes and sizes. Not going to defend K's broad brush remark.

As a parent, I've met all sorts of educators. By and large, the teachers my kids have had do a decent job, for low pay.

My personal beef with educators tends to be with two sorts:

School administrators, not teachers. No further comment.

Demagogues masquerading as teachers and professors.

Not quite the majority, IMO, but when they show up, these activists really stand out.

Best teacher my son has had so far is a retired DEA agent: ninth grade government class, and a retired Army sergeant math teacher in seventh grade. They both excited the learning instinct, curiosity, in him like no other teacher had.

We moved my son and daughter out of a "progressive" school system for a variety of reasons about five years ago. "Progressive" was a smoke screen for something I'll not drag into this conversation.

Occhi

[kandrathe]

Afterthought: As to what is SETI relative to Intelligent Design, why not ask SETI?

My point in referencing SETI, is that just like ID, SETI's work fails the falsifiability test relegating the endless search for signals in the cosmos to just another pile of junk science. If it is foolish to look into DNA strands, proteins, and complex structures for signs of ID, then wouldn't it also be foolish to endlessly scan the heavens for signals from intelligent life on other planets. Yet, NASA send little plaques and "Greetings From Earth" messages on all their deep space probes. Evidence? Any evidence at all?

Edit: Bun, Jester: I agree. We've flogged this tangent. My point isn't support for ID, or even that DI's mission is valid, or that getting articles is tricky or not. All I'm pointing to is the rabid vehemence that is unleashed on anyone getting close to supporting a non-Darwinian agenda. The Darwin supporters are not content to merely debunk ID supporters, they go much much farther than that. I think I've exposed the persecution. If you don't think so, then we agree to disagree.

[Zippyy]

My point in referencing SETI, is that just like ID, SETI's work fails the falsifiability test relegating the endless search for signals in the cosmos to just another pile of junk science. If it is foolish to look into DNA strands, proteins, and complex structures for signs of ID, then wouldn't it also be foolish to endlessly scan the heavens for signals from intelligent life on other planets. Yet, NASA send little plaques and "Greetings From Earth" messages on all their deep space probes. Evidence? Any evidence at all?

Falsifiability is a test on a claim. You can't apply it to a method of research. And you don't need evidence to perform research (but perhaps you need a little bit to get funding:)).

The unfalsifiable part of ID "research" is not looking into DNA strands, proteins, and complex structures with ID in mind. The unfalsifiable part of ID "research" is If you claim to have found evidence of ID, it can be argued against but not disproven.

SETI's endless transmissions and scannings are a method of research. You seem to be attempting to say that SETI is junk science because "scanning for transmissions cannot be proven false".

[kandrathe]

OK, Kandrathe, you don't want to reply to me. That's fine. But I want you to know that I feel your statements about public education in America are far, far out of line with what my experience has been. Quite frankly, I'm currently busting my ass to provide a good education to students who live in a highly religious, conservative town. So, it's frustrating to come home after working a 12-hour day and hear that I'm actually part of a secret plot to push through my liberal agenda. I do encourage my kids to develop their critical thinking skills, if that's what you mean. But we *want* them to do that, right?

Sorry, I must have missed your post in the flurry.

Yes, I want them to develop critical thinking skills. I know some great teachers, so I'm sorry if I'm painting with too broad a brush. There are also examples I've experienced personally of teachers who only forward their own agenda's, and punish students who do exhibit thoughtful dissertations in conflict with the teachers viewpoints.

Where I live, teachers and the teachers union have taken over local and state government. Education Minnesota funds and grooms candidates for all levels of political contests, from dog catcher to governor. In the latest here, our legislature wants to petition for normalizing relations with Cuba (the communist dictatorship), close off trade with Columbia (a democratic ally), and allow the MN Dept of Revenue open access to the citizens bank records. We just had the largest tax increase in the history of the state, and they over rode the governors veto to do it. I'm a little bitter at what organized (via Education Minnesota) left wingers are doing here.

[kandrathe]

SETI's endless transmissions and scannings are a method of research. You seem to be attempting to say that SETI is junk science because "scanning for transmissions cannot be proven false".

They claim to have scanned what % of the cosmos after 40 years of "research"? How long will it take to statistically find anything? They are researching based upon the premise that there is intelligence out there. It is junk science, because it is not based on any evidence. None, zip, nada. Now, as a philosophy it has validity, just as ID'ers hopefully look into things searching for the answer they want, I believe SETI scans the skies hopefully trying to find ETI. If it is not true, and they know they are searching the sky just doing open ended astronomic observation then SETI is a scam to suck science funding from wishful UFO nut jobs. Just as ID is probably philosophical wishful thinking trying to suck biology funding from right wing fundamentalist nut jobs. :)

SETI not finding anything does not falsify the possibility of there being intelligent life. It only means that nothing was found. Is the methodology therefore flawed?

Here is what SETI says about it, "The accusation that SETI is based upon a non-falsifiable hypothesis is valid only if one believes that the objective of SETI research is to prove the existence of extraterrestrial intelligence. Any experiment which adopts that goal is poorly designed, because it becomes open-ended. Better to establish a null hypothesis, which it takes only one counter-example to disprove. For example: I would hypothesize that there are no extraterrestrial civilizations that emit artificial electromagnetic radiation which can be detected on Earth, at our current level of technology. Presently (and for more than 40 years), our research supports this hypothesis. But a single confirmed detection would falsify the null hypothesis, thus lending credence to an alternative hypothesis (that we are not alone)."

So, if you really believe they have dedicated 40 years out of the 10,000 or so it will take (according to massive guess work on the Drake equation) to disprove ETI, well then I have plans for a matter transmuter I'd like to sell you. According to that hypothesis they are wildly successful! What does SETI stand for? I would like to make the hypothesis that Zaphod Beeblebrox will not appear this minute and hand me a Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster. Dang, I was right!

What does Evolutionary Biologist Leonard Ornstein think of SETI?

[eppie]

In the latest here, our legislature wants to petition for normalizing relations with Cuba (the communist dictatorship), close off trade with Columbia (a democratic ally), and allow the MN Dept of Revenue open access to the citizens bank records. We just had the largest tax increase in the history of the state, and they over rode the governors veto to do it. I'm a little bitter at what organized (via Education Minnesota) left wingers are doing here.

Here your incapability for understanding what other people (other than rednecks) think shows again.:D

You think about certain thinks politically but don't realize that a large part of the free world doesn't support these conservative ideas. I am not saying you are wrong or right, everybody can think whatever he or she wants, but to start blaming 'organized left-wingers' and complaining a whole thread about a liberal teacher conspiracy seems a bit ridiculous to me.
This thread is about weirdo's that do bad things to children, not about those scary left-wingers that want relations with those evil Cubans, or that are critical about your governments contacts with the biggest hard-drug supplier to your nations children, or that want to raise taxes (is not that you pay as much as we pay or something...).

I mean like I said, everybody has right to his own opinion, but painting Cuba as something terrible while at the same time 'defending' a group that abuses children in your own country (they are religious so it must be ok) seems very odd to me. Try to look at things from a broader perspective.

[Occhidiangela]

Here your incapability for understanding what other people (other than rednecks) think shows again.:D

How about you take your Eurotrash bigotry and pollute another board with it?

Occhi

[Quark]

How about you take your Eurotrash bigotry and pollute another board with it?

I used to think one faction of this board was the lesser of two evils. When they start calling a country that kills off dissenters democratic, simply because they're an "ally", it's a pretty good time to change that opinion.

[Griselda]

I used to think one faction of this board was the lesser of two evils. When they start calling a country that kills off dissenters democratic, simply because they're an "ally", it's a pretty good time to change that opinion.

I think that the Lounge is a better place because people who have such widely different points of view can debate them here. Many other places are only an opportunity for like-minded individuals to speak amongst themselves.

[kandrathe]

Here your incapability for understanding what other people (other than rednecks) think shows again.:D

You think about certain thinks politically but don't realize that a large part of the free world doesn't support these conservative ideas. I am not saying you are wrong or right, everybody can think whatever he or she wants, but to start blaming 'organized left-wingers' and complaining a whole thread about a liberal teacher conspiracy seems a bit ridiculous to me.
This thread is about weirdo's that do bad things to children, not about those scary left-wingers that want relations with those evil Cubans, or that are critical about your governments contacts with the biggest hard-drug supplier to your nations children, or that want to raise taxes (is not that you pay as much as we pay or something...).

I mean like I said, everybody has right to his own opinion, but painting Cuba as something terrible while at the same time 'defending' a group that abuses children in your own country (they are religious so it must be ok) seems very odd to me. Try to look at things from a broader perspective.

How about we focus on issues rather than you summarize my views as red neck?

I don't believe in the actions of FLDS, and I'm not defending them. I also don't believe that Texas is adequately concerned for the parents rights, and seems to also be treading on their religious freedom. I realize that you might not have an American perspective of freedom, and liberty. Millions of Americans have died for just that notion, that people should have the right to live free. So it is disturbing to me when our own government kicks down doors and drags off women and children to detention centers. I love liberty for everyone, even whackos, crack pots and nut jobs. If that makes me a red neck, then so be it.

My comment on our local legislature is a reflection on how one sided the politics are here, and that side has become aligned with what seems to be a European socialist ideology. Now, Columbia has its challenges what with FARC, and Aguilas Negras. It seems to me that Álvaro Uribe has taken a tough stand against both and is calling for the rule of law to prevail. It would not surprise me if we didn't have legislation soon asking to make Che Guevara's birthday, May 14th a State holiday. We've discussed before our different perceptions of Cuba, so I won't rehash that here. You and I see things differently. I don't believe in promoting communism, or socialism. And, I certainly don't think it has a role in my local politics in MINNESOTA. I don't believe in the government redistributing wealth, by seizing land, or income taxes. I believe in capitalism and democracy. If that makes me a red neck, well then so be it.

In summary then; I believe in a platform of rights, liberty, and freedom where people are given due process by their government. I believe that parents should be allowed(within our framework of justice) to raise their own children, and instill in them the values and customs of their heritage. I believe that through hard work, innovation, and some luck that a person should benefit from the fruits of their labors, rather than have that productivity siphoned off by bureaucrats to further entrench the unproductive. I believe that the teaching morality and discipline are the cornerstone's of a societies compassion. If this is what you call Conservatism, then so be it. I think of myself more of a libertarian.

So, I think your characterization of me not thinking broadly is off based. I am reflecting on how things are here locally, and discussing on how their experiences are different. Context is important to me. If teachers are teaching the benefits of socialism, and the evils of capitalism in Moscow schools, then it is contextually appropriate. Ideologically opposed to my views, but I would consider it appropriate. If American teachers are promoting socialism and communism, and teaching the evils of capitalism then it is contextually inappropriate. So what I see is not the unbiased teaching of the pros and cons of various government philosophies. I see the biased promotion of anti-Americanism in our public schools. I'm a bit tired of Europe(ans) looking down their nose at the bourgeoisie and barbarity of the new world. I express myself differently than Occhi, but you might want to think about getting off the high horse here.

Edit: The Bay Area Center for Voting Research - check out "The 25 most Liberal places in America" This is what I mean, even though Minneapolis ranks 23rd, its pretty loony toons liberal for my taste. Gris, and I might want to trade houses for some months to take a break from our respective government angsts.

[eppie]

How about we focus on issues rather than you summarize my views as red neck?

So what I see is not the unbiased teaching of the pros and cons of various government philosophies. I see the biased promotion of anti-Americanism in our public schools. I'm a bit tired of Europe(ans) looking down their nose at the bourgeoisie and barbarity of the new world. I express myself differently than Occhi, but you might want to think about getting off the high horse here.

I gave you an opportunity to moderate your opinion a bit because I found that you were taking this discussion the wrong way.
You and Occhi however hilariously showed that I was correct, even though I was 99% sure that (based on my experience with both of you here; we have completely different world views, but you both seem to be intelligent individuals in my opinion) you would react differently.
I was not trying to give my opinion, to defend Cuba or to offend rednecks. I was just looking for some empathy and only some understanding of other people's views.
What I get back from you two is some 1980's cold-war black and white mentality.

Our countries have different opinions on liberty: two good examples drugs and weapons.....you call you country the home of the free although an individual is not allowed to use the drugs of his choice.....in my country an individual is not allowed to go around with a gun..........obviously we have different opinions about what freedom really is. If you then come with a Cuba= evil statement and at the same time defending religious fanatics that abuse small girls I think you lack empathy. I hope you can start trying to understand other peoples opinion instead of just having an 'everything the US does is good and anybody leftist is bad' so that we can continue the discussion. (occhi seems to old to change his anti european sentiment :D just kidding angel).
see you tomorrow!
Eppie

[Vandiablo]

Our countries have different opinions on liberty: two good examples drugs and weapons.....you call you country the home of the free although an individual is not allowed to use the drugs of his choice.....in my country an individual is not allowed to go around with a gun..........obviously we have different opinions about what freedom really is.

No, not countries. The schism that you speak of exists here in the USA, too. We've had 8 to 14 years of tilting to the retro-Reaganites, we may get a much-needed break in 2009. Of course, now that McCain has become Bush III, we might not.

If you then come with a Cuba= evil statement and at the same time defending religious fanatics that abuse small girls I think you lack empathy. I hope you can start trying to understand other peoples opinion instead of just having an 'everything the US does is good and anybody leftist is bad' so that we can continue the discussion.

Five years ago, it hurt, literally hurt, to be green in this country*. The GOP was seeking to move this country to a one-party system, people who didn't worship the latest of the Reagan Dynasty were removed from their jobs, and no one was listening to those of us who cared about water, air, atmospheric issues -- you know, "hippie" issues. Nothing was more pathetic than a "hippie". Once, about four years ago, two politicos knocked on my door and asked me what my biggest issue was; I told them it was water quality and they were dumbfounded -- they had no talking points for that!! and they were the Democrats!!

But things are getting better now. For instance, it is only the occasional crank complaining that they can't buy incandescent bulbs. (nyuk nyuk) And hey, thank God for Evangelicals -- they now want to save the earth. After all, God so loves the earth -- and all the animals species (ark ark) -- wash away all those people that would eradicate species.

Of course, what's discouraging now is that a lot of good-intentioned efforts are just creating other problems. For instance, using corn for biofuels is only slightly better if at all than regular gas (sugarcane is much better). Supposedly, deforestation is happening to grow more corn (though that's better than more pavement). Sadly, deforestation is happening anyway -- for many reasons.

I told people at my office a year ago that I was glad gas prices were going up. Still am -- it seems to be driving (HAH!) a push to finally deliver improved technology to the American market.

Anyway, I'll stop my rant. My point is that you tarred all Americans with your brush, and it doesn't apply to all of us.

-V

*Replying about Kermit will only show your age

[Vandiablo]

Many other places are only an opportunity for like-minded individuals to speak amongst themselves.

YES! I agree!

-V :P

(too predictable??)

[Tal]

I hope you can start trying to understand other peoples opinion instead of just having an 'everything the US does is good and anybody leftist is bad' so that we can continue the discussion.
Eppie

The converse is also true - not everything the US does is bad and anyone with a different opinion than yours is bad.

Thats the high horse they're talking about. I don't necessarily see eye to eye with Occhi or Kan but I'd rather read their posts than your knee-jerk reaction statements.

[Occhidiangela]

I used to think one faction of this board was the lesser of two evils. When they start calling a country that kills off dissenters democratic, simply because they're an "ally", it's a pretty good time to change that opinion.

WTF does that have to do with my post to eppie?

Occhi

[Occhidiangela]

I gave you an opportunity to moderate your opinion a bit because I found that you were taking this discussion the wrong way.
You and Occhi however hilariously showed that I was correct, even though I was 99% sure that (based on my experience with both of you here; we have completely different world views, but you both seem to be intelligent individuals in my opinion) you would react differently.
I was not trying to give my opinion, to defend Cuba or to offend rednecks.

You completely miss the point, which is no surprise to me.

Do you call Spaniards Spics as well?

Do you refer to Italians as Dagos?

Do you, as so many Europeans I've met, casually refer to blacks and Africans as n_!_gg_e_rs?

You really don't get it, do you? Your casual use of a deliberately perjorative stereotype is, to you, fully justified.

News flash: it only reveals your prejudice.

Eppie, did you ever wonder where the sentiment that gave rist to the term Eurotrash came from? Your own rhetoric is a fine example of the inspiration. So I toss Eurotrash back at you for your perjorative usage of redneck, and it goes so far over your head you must be living in a mining pit.

Occhi