Michael Phelps.... Deserving of the hype?

[Kevin]

I don't agree. We are talkign about a very special individual here. A few of the other great swimmers (Thorpe en van den Hoogeband) also had very typical body shapes. Thorpe had size 16 feet if I am not mistaken, and van den Hoogenbands torso was 'dented' giving him a perfect shape for going fast.

The biggest proof is that a 100m winner could never win a 1000m as well. (running I mean)

You'll also note that in swimming the 50m winner doesn't win the 1500. The 100m winner doesn't win the 400m either (Thorpe tried). Phelps did not win the 100m free, though his lead-off in the 4x100 would have placed him 3rd. Could Bolt finish 3rd in the 400 or 800, I bet he could but he isn't trying. You can think of swimming more as having the straight running events (freestyle) and then 3 different hurdle events with a running/hurdling event (the IM). Phelps didn't win the 100m he didn't win the 50m either. He swam on the 4x100 as the lead off but he wasn't the fastest in the pool for that. This is like in track where you see 400m guys and occasionally an 800m guy running on the winning 4x100.

The 50m winner has never won the 400m either. So this is the same as in track with the 100m winner not winning the 800m.

So you could make the argument that pure sprinters are undervalued. I've seen track guys win the 400, 800, and run on the 4x100 and the 4x400. That's a shot at 4 medals. But what they didn't do that Phelps did was run a hurdle race as well.

I think Bolt could win a hurdle event if he trained for it as well, but he isn't trying. I think he would need to if you want to put on the level of Phelps. Bolt is much closer to Ian Thorpe in what he is doing, but since Bolt has been more dominant I think he is more impressive than Thorpe was.

[eppie]

I think Bolt could win a hurdle event if he trained for it as well, but he isn't trying. I think he would need to if you want to put on the level of Phelps. Bolt is much closer to Ian Thorpe in what he is doing, but since Bolt has been more dominant I think he is more impressive than Thorpe was.

I think (but am not sure about this) that this (bolt not going for hurdles) is because the competition in athletics is a lot bigger than in swimming.



By the way, a dutch woman got the gold in dressage for the third time in a row...Anky van Grunsven......however....far from being greatest athlete ever though.:)

[Nystul]

I think there are a few aspects to this. One point is that medal count does mean something in and of itself. When people attempt to assess these Olympic games historically, Michael Phelps will be undeniably the biggest story and the most tangible example of success. It is true that it would be impossible in most Olympic sports for even the most dominant athlete to take home more than a few medals, but that is kind of the point at hand.

As far as how tough his actual accomplishment was, the first thing I think must be considered is just how many world class races he had to participate in over a period of several days. Nevermind the fact that he win every final, but just doing them all had to take a toll. He had to go all out in 8 races at the highest level, plus qualifying heats for 5 of them, over about a week. The guys he was up against did not have to spend nearly that amount of time in the pool. Given that elite racers who specialize in one event still ease through their preliminaries to conserve energy for the final, it would seem that Phelps had put himself at a significant disadvantage in races like the 100 fly simply by all of the work load he had carried to that point in the week.

Phelps's schedule would not allow the possibility of even thinking about the 400m freestyle. Let's consider this for a minute. He is absolutely dominate in the 400 IM and even more so in the 200m freestyle. Is there any doubt at all that he could smash the world record in the 400m freestyle, if he only had the time to try it? I can picture a Janet Evans type of world record that might last until Speedo makes transparent wetsuits with self-flapping arms. The 100m free would be a much tougher challenge, but we've seen how he finishes 100m relay legs and how he came back to win the 100m fly... I surely would not bet against him if he were in a world championship or Olympic medal race of 100m free to pull out the win. It seems as though his dominance is limited only by the number of hours available during a swim meet.

I think the 400 IM wins really set Phelps apart as the greatest swimmer of all time. He would be the greatest without any IM races, but those really make it a closed case. It establishes both his competence in all 4 disciplines and the ability to swim a middle distance race at the highest level. That is pretty amazing stuff. There is no 400m event in Mark Spitz's Olympic medal portfolio. And to go a bit off topic, Carl Lewis and Jesse Owens never ran or hurdled 400m for Olympic medals, and Michael Johnson never ran 100m for one. And remember, this is 2 Olympics in a row that he has won gold in both the 100m fly and the 400m IM.

Edit: Ian Thorpe had the ability to compete at 100m through 800m at a world class level, which is insane. But it was all freestyle, while Phelps has butterfly + freestyle + good enough at the others to win the medleys.


Phelps is 23. Hmm, only 18 years younger than Dara Torres. It's hard to imagine that he wouldn't get at least 4 medals in 2012 with some help from his relay teammates, which would give him 20+ for his career.

It's really impossible to compare achievements in different sports. What Bolt is doing in these Olympics is just unbelievable (although I find it appalling for a sprinter to pull up during a final like that... this isn't the X games)! From the perspective of an American, I can point to U.S. softball or to the beach volleyball combo of May/Walsh, or the women's basketball team.. these are groups that gone for years without ever losing a game. I watched the basketball team with Lisa Leslie and Katie Smith play the Australians in 1996 when the games were in Atlanta. They won that game and every Olympic game since, and those girls are in the starting lineup this year. But the most they can win is one medal every four years. And as I said in the beginning, the medal counts do have a significance in their own right.

[Kevin]

I think (but am not sure about this) that this (bolt not going for hurdles) is because the competition in athletics is a lot bigger than in swimming.
By the way, a dutch woman got the gold in dressage for the third time in a row...Anky van Grunsven......however....far from being greatest athlete ever though.:)

I think it's because Bolt isn't as good as Phelps I believe the competition in swimming is just as good if not better, you don't have 3 guys under the world record if they aren't good (note this happened with Michael Johnson in the 200m as well, 3 guys broke the previous world record in his win). At the least Bolt is not as willing to put it on the line so that we can actually see. Phelps has said that he didn't swim as hard as he could in some of the finals because he had to conserve to be able to sustain. It's obvious Bolt also was good enough to be able to conserve energy even in the finals because he didn't push through the finish in the 100m. But since he didn't attempt to run a hurdle event or a 400 we can't know if he would have been able to stand up to what Phelps did. That is a major part of my point as well.

Edit: I forgot to address this point. The 3 time champion thing I was refering to, has been done in several other sports. It's never been done by a male swimmer (I have to double check on female swimmers). That was more a point to help illustrate the competition. No male swimmer has ever won the same individual event in 3 different Olympics even though many of them go to 3 or 4 Olympics. Other sports have had 3 time individual winners, including track. And I wasn't even claiming Phelps had to do it, to be the greatest Olympian of all time (a title I can't give him yet) and not I'm saying Olympian, not athlete. I was saying that if he does, it just solidifies it as he would have done yet another thing that no swimmer had done. Doing things that no one else has ever done in your sport is a mark to greatness.

Babe Ruth was a great ball player (again since I rate baseball lower on athletic requirements I'm not saying athlete). He hit 54 home runs one year (we all know about his 60 home run record that stood for 20+ years but I'm referring to a different season). There were I believe it was 6 (I'd have to dig a bit to find out but I know it was at least 3 and possible as many as 9) TEAMS that didn't have that many home runs that year. We can't say what Ruth would do if he trained and played with modern competition (or even competition for older eras he didn't play in), but when you look at something like that how can you deny that he was great? So I apply metrics that like that to others, and it's a small way in which you can compare people between sports. Phelps did something no other swimmer has ever done, 8 medals in one Olympics, another swimmer had gotten 7, against what even he admits was weaker competition that what Phelps faces. No other swimmer besides Phelps in 04 has ever even gotten 5. So it's obvious he rules the pool. Have any other volleyball teams won every game for a year like May and Walsh? If so then I give more points to Phelps. It's that type of deal in my mind.

[Occhidiangela]

What seals it for me was that Phelps surrendered his spot on the 400 meter medley relay team to his team-mate and rival Ian Crocker at the 2004 Olympics in Athens. That team went on to win the gold medal without Phelps.

That enters the realm of sportsmanship, and what it means to be a team, a teammate, and a leader.

Occhi

[Quark]

I'm sorry, I can't resist linking what I've seen elsewhere

http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/19/just...helps-a-douche/

Please, don't take it as a knock of his abilities. It is funny, though.

[Nystul]

I don't get it. A game is different from a sport how? And because Mark Phelps races in the water and Usain Bolt races above the water, that makes the one a "real hero" and the other a "nice guy"? And Tiger Woods is just playing a "game", whereas putting on tight trunks and running for 100 meters is a "sport"? What kind of distinction are you making here? You've completely lost me.

-Jester

We have strange notions of the concept "real sport". It combines some very masculine athletic abilities and preferably some chance of people killing each other. It is interesting because the nature of the word itself seems to lend to such athletic contests as hunting, fishing, and riding around on your horse. We drive sports cars and sports utility vehicles and get Sterno from the sporting goods store, but try telling someone that ping-pong or trampoline is a sport and prepare to get laughed at.

[kandrathe]

until Speedo makes transparent wetsuits with self-flapping arms.

Hmmm, transparent would be a big ratings booster. I would vote for bio-engineered micro flagella.

I think a comparison could be made to an Olympic gymnast, and if they won the team, all around, and each individual event. Or, winning most of the track and field events (probably more are possible than swimming even).

It would be interesting to list all the greatest Olympians and argue the pros and cons. Many of the greats had their success after a stint in the Olympics due to the professional rule. I think too, "The Olympics", are only one event in the world of sports these days. To be fair, you would need to evaluate other worldwide tournaments to determine the "best" athlete in the world.

You will probably never see the Olympic table tennis champion also winning trampoline, dressage and badminton. So number of medals is irrelevant to their dominance in their sport. Take women's softball, where the US team has never failed to win by a blow out. They are so successful, the sport was petitioned to be taken out of the next Olympics.

[kandrathe]

I'm sorry, I can't resist linking what I've seen elsewhere

http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/19/just...helps-a-douche/

Please, don't take it as a knock of his abilities. It is funny, though.

According to that test, 90% of American males between 13 and 25 would be "Douche's" then. He probably has very little time to be fashion conscious, or if he were he might not be so interested in swimming.

[Nystul]

Have any other volleyball teams won every game for a year like May and Walsh? If so then I give more points to Phelps. It's that type of deal in my mind.

The thing is, women's volleyball is still a fairly new sport in terms of historical perspective. May and Walsh were already the greatest team in that history, even before this current hot streak. The records they have broken this year were their own records.

[Quark]

According to that test, 90% of American males between 13 and 25 would be "Douche's" then.

And that is different from reality how?

:whistling:

[Occhidiangela]

The thing is, women's volleyball is still a fairly new sport in terms of historical perspective. May and Walsh were already the greatest team in that history, even before this current hot streak. The records they have broken this year were their own records.

Not to mention internet dweebs, when considering the two beach volleyball ladies, doubtless spend more time with hand lotion and rapid hand motions, which sorta makes them feminine freshening products themselves.

I admit I laughed at this turn of phrase:

Noted Characteristics: Everything - literally everything - about this screams “Douche Vader

Occhi

[kandrathe]

And that is different from reality how?

:whistling:

Touche' :lol:

[Mirajj]

Touche' :lol:

Sadly, the crooked ballcap look has always screamed "idiot" to me.

[eppie]

One does not necessarily follow the other in logic or in my experience in track and cross country events. I say this coming from the experience of having a 1km runner smoke me in the 100m and vice versa.

I'm sorry, I was to quick to write this down.

What I mean is that in a balanced competition (at world level) a 100m runner can never win a 1000m run. The physical build just doesnot allow this. I am not saying a 1000m runner cannot run a sub 10.50 100m, but the top he could never reach.

BTw I like sports that everybody can play, that's why athletics and football for me are in a league of there own. Swimming is in the league just behind that for me (still being among the most serious sports). Dressage is all the way at the end. <_<
That saying Michael Phelps results are more impressive than Mark Spitz' a whole lot more people are swimming a this moment then before.

Another great thing about soccer is that it doesn't require a special build to be successful....whereas if you want to become a marathon runner and are not born in Ethiopia or Kenya you can just as well not even try. :D


Still this is all about people that find it normal to put there whole life in service of doing something on TV for an (often very small) audience, and we all pay for it.
(sorry I am getting subject tired and usually I get sarcastic then)

Just for info (I stumbled upon this today in a online newspaper)
http://100thofasecond.com/

everybody loves a conspiracy theory.

[Nystul]

Just for info (I stumbled upon this today in a online newspaper)
http://100thofasecond.com/

everybody loves a conspiracy theory.

They are good for a laugh, at least. I wonder sometimes how these people can trust their ATM cards, cell phones, etc... The one thing of interest to me there was the point that Phelps did not touch the wall with both hands at the same time. Maybe Shadow can shed some light on this. Unless I'm mistaken, a racer finishes their time when they touch the wall in any way, not when the second hand hits the wall. If the officials felt that Phelps was reaching with one hand and pushing with the other, he would be disqualified completely.

[eppie]

They are good for a laugh, at least. I wonder sometimes how these people can trust their ATM cards, cell phones, etc... The one thing of interest to me there was the point that Phelps did not touch the wall with both hands at the same time. Maybe Shadow can shed some light on this. Unless I'm mistaken, a racer finishes their time when they touch the wall in any way, not when the second hand hits the wall. If the officials felt that Phelps was reaching with one hand and pushing with the other, he would be disqualified completely.

I agree.

Another thing.

Kenenisa Bekele....what an athlete. One of the greatest runners ever (Gebresellasie) just 6th on the 10,000m.

[ShadowHM]

Maybe Shadow can shed some light on this.

Sorry. No help here. My memory is uncertain. I could look it up for you, but I am in the midst of packing my house up, and I have no idea where that box might be or even if I kept the binders of rule-sets at all, given that the swimmer has been out of that for almost 10 years.

[--Pete]

Hi,

The one thing of interest to me there was the point that Phelps did not touch the wall with both hands at the same time. . . . Unless I'm mistaken, a racer finishes their time when they touch the wall in any way, not when the second hand hits the wall.

Couldn't find the Olympic rules or even the FINA rules online, but did find a primer for USA rules. Since both the USA and the Olympics rule sets are based on FINA, I suspect they are very similar. Note that in the breast stoke and butterfly, the swimmer must touch the wall with both hands on the turns and on the finish. I suspect that, on the finish, it's the second hand touching that is the official finish for that swimmer, but I didn't peruse this further.

--Pete

[Kevin]

Hi,
Couldn't find the Olympic rules or even the FINA rules online, but did find a primer for USA rules. Since both the USA and the Olympics rule sets are based on FINA, I suspect they are very similar. Note that in the breast stoke and butterfly, the swimmer must touch the wall with both hands on the turns and on the finish. I suspect that, on the finish, it's the second hand touching that is the official finish for that swimmer, but I didn't peruse this further.

--Pete

I was a breaststroker and IMer in High School and college. Yes, both hands have to touch the wall, but it's the first had that touches that stops the timer as best as I can remember. Judges watch all the turns to make sure that both hands touch reasonably close together as simultaneous touches aren't always realistic (neither Cavic or Phelps had simultaneous touches). The touchpads can easily record the multiple touches. I've been disqualified a few times for not hitting with both hands on turns in both butterfly and breaststroke. Doesn't really happen on finishes, it can but generally it means you had an illegal stroke to get your hands that far out of sync. On turns you'll start getting that lead arm moving as soon as you can and sometimes that means you don't get them both hitting the wall because you started the turn too soon.

Which brings up a story of judging. There was one time that I was DQ'd by a judge but we got it over ruled. In HS meets the breaststroke is the 2nd to last event, just before the 4x100 relay. Most HS meets only have pads on one end of the pool because they are generally 25 yard or 25 meter pools, but the shortest event is a 50 so you don't need them on both ends and they are expensive so you don't bother to pay that extra money to get them on both ends. Well the judge said that I didn't get 2 hands on the wall on my 2nd turn, which was a pad turn. My DQ meant we lost the meet by 2 points. Me not DQing was a 2 point win for us. Scoring was 6, 4, 3, 2, 1 points for 1st through 5th. I won the race and my teammates got 4th and 5th. So no DQ we get 9 points they get 7. With a DQ they get 11 points we get 5. My coach suspected the judge of a bias. He filed a complaint the pad records were looked at showed 4 touches. 2 for my hands (.013s apart and 2 for my feet which were I think .08s after my hand touches and .005s apart from each other yes the pads go to thousandths of a second though races only go to hundredths). The pads showed the touches, the other judge said he didn't have a clear view of the turn (he was not the turn judge but the stroke judge so it wasn't his job but he was consulted) the opposing coach also said he thought my turn was clean so I got my win instead of my DQ. I have no idea if they would have giving me the win back without the opposing coach saying he thought the turn was clean as well. It wasn't a good turn, I'll agree, I half stroked into the wall (which is the hands were so off I knew it was a bad finish and I barely hit the wall with the 2nd hand because I was trying to make up for the bad stroke with a faster turn, but it was legal in my mind so I was hot afterwards and told coach to challenge it.